Breaking News: FAA to require pilots know how to fly

[densoo]

So the contention is, that in the Colgan case, if the pilots had been paid more money they would have made different personal choices with reference to their commute or would have moved to Newark. They would therefore have been better rested and responded properly to what amounts to an unnoticed degradation of airspeed,

Yes. Guaranteed? No. But had they been better rested there's certainly a higher probability that that would have noticed the airplane was entering a bad aerodynamic state.

...had that airspeed and configuration oversight still occurred they would have executed properly a basic maneuver taught at the private pilot level....because they were better rested.

Unlikely. This addresses training and skills, both of which the NTSB found deficient.

 

[Tweaker]

Higher pay don't fix stupid, ie. pulling into a stick shaker.

Finally someone acknowledges the elephant in the room!

It would much more effective and FREE to liquidate GULFSTREAM ACADEMY pay for training airlines. Incompetent scrubs who buy their way into jobs their skills/experience don't warrant on their own = DEAD PEOPLE.

Colgan Q400 @ BUF - Gulfstream puppy mill Capt.

Lexington, KY RJ - Gulfstream puppy mill F/O

I can't recall at present the other RJ crash that had GULFSTREAM tards at teh wheel

Those were 90% of the Part 121 deaths over a 5 year period!

The cockpit transcript in the LEX and BUF recorded these untalented chimps going on and on about the next career step, all the while they were at a deficiency of ability at their present position! The peter principle (one advances to the point of being inept at their final level) is real, and when it goes bad in aviation people die. When someone can literally BUY THEIR WAY TO CAREER PROGRESSION we have turbo speed carnage. It really is that simple.

 

[Raskal]

A draft of the sim profile is already floating around the internet. If the FA senses a rapid bumping like boat going across choppy water, they are to immediately contact the flight deck. As soon as the flight deck answers they are to yell, "RECOVER!" The hands on training during ground school is going to be everyone meeting at a nearby lake for speed boat over choppy water familiarization.

Well played sir :beer:

 

[Turtle21]

Well the captain had over 21 hours of rest prior to duty in, and the FO was off the day before and it was a 1330 report...Now I ask again, what changes in the rest rules would have changed this? Any fatigue was self induced...Should we restrict commuting?

Facts please...not emotional rhetoric...

Just because one fatal accident, on one single day, did not happen as a result of insufficient rest, it does not follow that all other flight on all other days are piloted by well rested pilots.

Just because it may not have been possible for the FAA to ensure greater rest in the accident you mention, it does not mean that pilots are lying about the necessity for the FAA to establish better rest rules.

Who would deny better rest rules (min time behind the hotel room door for one, to account for traffic SNAFUs or absent busses) would in fact ensure more safety?

 

[densoo]

Who would deny better rest rules (min time behind the hotel room door for one, to account for traffic SNAFUs or absent busses) would in fact ensure more safety?

I want them just to simplify my monthly bid process, in which I have to essentially build sane rest rules into my bid. It's amazing how few trips are left after I've put in 11 hours or more block to block (which gives you less than 10 behind the door), duty day length, frontside/backside clock-swapping, legs per day, etc. It would be nice if the FAA did this for me. It took them two days to make changes to ATC schedules, why two years for pilots?

 

[JAFI]

No where does the FAA demand that a company only have minimum rest, training, experence, and pay.

Where was the management at Colgan when the minimum was the norm, going to the bank maybe??

 

[LearLove]

our "spots" in CQT this year now include a high altitude stall/recovery.

 

[pilotyip]

I agree with all the posters that said cumulative and situational fatigue were a factor. If you don't- you're just wrong- Also agree w/ salukiGod of aviation- that I wouldn't make the mistakes that capt made- and I like this step- I still don't think Sims are the problem- we could get rid of a LOt of the undisciplined riff-raff if we got rid of the complete joke of FAA written tests.

Want to raise the bar on the quality of pilots, make the tests more like the Bar. Hell, make it a challenge that a 4th grader couldn't pass in a week at least.

yea lets make a SAT of 1300 the min for an ATP, or ACT 29, two years of college math through Calc II, one year of calc based physics, and chem. Kinda like the military academy entrance requirements, that would put smarter piltos into the cockpit, if we could find them

 

[Flyer1015]

Colgan Q400 @ BUF - Gulfstream puppy mill Capt.

Lexington, KY RJ - Gulfstream puppy mill F/O

I can't recall at present the other RJ crash that had GULFSTREAM tards at teh wheel

The one you can't recall was Pinnacle's "410 it" pilots.

But I will say that the Lexington crash happened by a CA who had around 4800TT and the FO around 6300TT. Bringing up Gulfstream academy for just the FO, which probably 6,000 hours BEFORE the accident, is a moot point. No one can conclude that this Comair crash wouldn't have happened if this FO trained elsewhere from Gulfstream.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

yea lets make a SAT of 1300 the min for an ATP, or ACT 29, two years of college math through Calc II, one year of calc based physics, and chem. Kinda like the military academy entrance requirements, that would put smarter piltos into the cockpit, if we could find them

Can we include grammar in there?

 

[Mud Eagle]

full stall in a swept wing airplane, isn't that test pilot stuff?

Hmmm...somehow Uncle Sam's flying school teaches kids to do this daily. What's so tough about it?

 

[Mud Eagle]

yea lets make a SAT of 1300 the min for an ATP, or ACT 29, two years of college math through Calc II, one year of calc based physics, and chem. Kinda like the military academy entrance requirements, that would put smarter piltos into the cockpit, if we could find them

The military still has a very, very long line at the entrance door for their pilot training of people who fit the bill....

 

[Mud Eagle]

When the airline creates a culture in which pilots have to do this to feed themselves--and know very well this is happening (they prohibited sleeping in the crew room)--then the airline bears some responsiblity for this accident.

Was Colgan still using indentured servants as aircrew then, or had they converted to a system where the crews were made up of employees who had the choice of if they wanted to work in a crappy environment or the option to leave and do something else?

 

[EWR_FO]

Higher pay don't fix stupid, ie. pulling into a stick shaker.

Or putting the flaps up in a stall/spin.

 

[BoilerUP]

Or putting the flaps up in a stall/spin.

Indeed.

I can't help but think the FO did that because she believed they were in a tail stall.

But they'd never have been in a position where that exacerbated things if 1. one or both of them had been minding the store with regards to airspeed control, or 2. the captain didn't pull a shaking yoke into his chest.

 

[Dornier 335]

yea lets make a SAT of 1300 the min for an ATP, or ACT 29, two years of college math through Calc II, one year of calc based physics, and chem. Kinda like the military academy entrance requirements, that would put smarter piltos into the cockpit, if we could find them

Most EU legacy carriers require a similar background in education as a hiring minimum; however, this does not fix the gap in common sense. You might have a pilot who can calculate the curvature of the earth @ FL400 but is weak in hand-flying and decision making. College doesn't guarantee to make a person a better pilot. Not matter what the label is.

 

[densoo]

I can't help but think the FO did that because she believed they were in a tail stall.

Or a go-around. If you look at the timing of when the plane finally flipped, it was precisely at this moment of the FO raising the flaps. A go-around is one maneuver that they were well trained in and when they went to full power muscle memory may have taken over and she thought we're in a go-around, need to raise the flaps.

In spite of the CA's erroneous inputs, it seems that they may have been powering out of it and could well have recovered, had it not been for this uncommanded action of raising the flaps.

 

[EWR_FO]

Indeed.

I can't help but think the FO did that because she believed they were in a tail stall.

But they'd never have been in a position where that exacerbated things if 1. one or both of them had been minding the store with regards to airspeed control, or 2. the captain didn't pull a shaking yoke into his chest.

I disagree, I think she thought it was a normal go-around. Oops, typed before reading- Densoo beat me to it.

 

[Abernathy]

Or a go-around. If you look at the timing of when the plane finally flipped, it was precisely at this moment of the FO raising the flaps. A go-around is one maneuver that they were well trained in and when they went to full power muscle memory may have taken over and she thought we're in a go-around, need to raise the flaps.

In spite of the CA's erroneous inputs, it seems that they may have been powering out of it and could well have recovered, had it not been for this uncommanded action of raising the flaps.

If you watch the reconstruction this certainly seems to be the case. Sad.

 

[Flopgut]

A proper relationship with the RLA would have prevented this accident...

Granting pilots access to the benefits side of the RLA (RRB) will be cheaper than this proposal.

 

[waveflyer]

yea lets make a SAT of 1300 the min for an ATP, or ACT 29, two years of college math through Calc II, one year of calc based physics, and chem. Kinda like the military academy entrance requirements, that would put smarter piltos into the cockpit, if we could find them

So you see no distinction between a 1300 SAT and CalcII and the 3 question multiple choice and T/F rote memory joke we have now?

Standardize the knowledge requirements w/ the military and JAA- I'm not afraid of that- are you?

 

[LearLove]

on the more education thing - I knew a guy who had an engineering degree from a military academy (A average grades), flew military fighters, flew for 2 major airlines 20K+ hours and was killed in a stall accident while landing.

So what I'm saying:

No education or Phd, Military or Civ (or combo), 0 hours or 30K+, never paid a dime for training or PFT'd and every conceivable combination in between - we pilots of all levels/backgrounds can screw the pooch on any given day.

 

[pilotyip]

So you see no distinction between a 1300 SAT and CalcII and the 3 question multiple choice and T/F rote memory joke we have now?

Standardize the knowledge requirements w/ the military and JAA- I'm not afraid of that- are you?

Only my experience, we give a basic intelligence test, like a ASVAB, math, mech comp etc. Pilots who score high on this test have a much higer probability of being good pilots than pilots who score low on this test. Ex Mil pilots always score about 1.5 std devs above the mean for this test, because they have already been screened. Are their exceptions to this rule? Of course there are, but you go with what works. Like a company with growing profits in normally a good investment, and a company with declining profits is normally a poor investment.

 

[bizicmo]

on the more education thing - I knew a guy who had an engineering degree from a military academy (A average grades), flew military fighters, flew for 2 major airlines 20K+ hours and was killed in a stall accident while landing.

So what I'm saying:

No education or Phd, Military or Civ (or combo), 0 hours or 30K+, never paid a dime for training or PFT'd and every conceivable combination in between - we pilots of all levels/backgrounds can screw the pooch on any given day.

So your saying that there should be no requirements at all, even a pilot certificate itself should only be optional. Since anybody could have an accident on any given day, really there shouldn't be any type of attempt to minimize those accidents.
Airline A has pilots with engineering degrees, flew military fighters, and have about 20k hours. Airline B has pilots with degrees from Burger King U., and some C172 time about 500 hours. Which airline are you going to fly on since both could screw the pooch on any given day?

 

[LearLove]

So your saying that there should be no requirements at all, even a pilot certificate itself should only be optional. Since anybody could have an accident on any given day, really there shouldn't be any type of attempt to minimize those accidents.
Airline A has pilots with engineering degrees, flew military fighters, and have about 20k hours. Airline B has pilots with degrees from Burger King U., and some C172 time about 500 hours. Which airline are you going to fly on since both could screw the pooch on any given day?

Yeah that's exactly what I'm saying. O how did you ever crack my secret hidden meaning in that post?

Now go back to splitting atoms in your basement Einstein.

 

[waveflyer]

Nice-

I think we have a lot of LAZY pilots who don't want to study- but want to get PAID.
Good luck with that. Race to the bottom, meet your creator.

 

[bizicmo]

Yeah that's exactly what I'm saying. O how did you ever crack my secret hidden meaning in that post?

Now go back to splitting atoms in your basement Einstein.

We someone has to do it since your to busy watching american idol or refilling the ketchup packets. How dare us strive for excellence and improving mankind.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Hmmm...somehow Uncle Sam's flying school teaches kids to do this daily. What's so tough about it?

Uncle Sam turns out more UAV remote control pilots than conventional ones and no UAV currently have swept wings.

Airplanes will be dumbed down (Airbus) long before pilot requirements are raised, it just makes more economic sense. The current re-hash of the Fundementals of Aerodynamics is just laywer mandated window dressing.

 

[LearLove]

We someone has to do it since your to busy watching american idol or refilling the ketchup packets. How dare us strive for excellence and improving mankind.

Yeah I was watching TV shows like American Idol when I got my degree in Mechanical Engineering - whatever. I wasn't packing ketchup bottles while I was getting my degree either. I worked as an engineer designing electric motors and heat sinks for military aircraft and building flight exp. as a flight instructor.

I wrote papers titled "Theory of Low Reynolds Number High Lift Coefficient Airfoils" and completed studies on flight testing UAV's.

Now you studied what and did what while you were in school?

 

[Tweaker]

Uncle Sam turns out more UAV remote control pilots than conventional ones and no UAV currently have swept wings.

Airplanes will be dumbed down (Airbus) long before pilot requirements are raised, it just makes more economic sense. The current re-hash of the Fundementals of Aerodynamics is just laywer mandated window dressing.

Sadly, I agree.