Breaking News: FAA to require pilots know how to fly

[Grandpa +65]

What kind of bat guano is this? You can train us to fly the whole simulator profile inverted if you want to, but if you're not going to hold people who fail accountable for those failures it's a pointless exercise. That crash had nothing to do with pilot training, and had everything to do with making sure pilots are well rested and paid enough so they don't have to travel across the country to have a place to live. When a McDonald’s employee can make more than a pilot in a year you would think that we have a problem.

 

[kf4amu]

The original post is a result of the Colgan crash....2 of the next 3 responses cited rest requirements.

They were mocking the FAA's ineptitude in responding to REAL safety concerns, not just in reference to the Colgan crash. At least that's how I interpreted it.

We can let them decide if I was right.

 

[wmuflyguy]

Joe I think the point is that while they were fatigued *despite* having 20+ hours of "rest", the current rules create situations where fatigue is *unavoidable*, so you can get the same exact result. Fatigue is fatigue. But I have flown several times with probably less actual rest/sleep than the Colgan crew because of reduced rest during periods of odd shifting schedules. Government sanctioned fatigue is outdated and uncivilized. I can wake up and work on an 8 hour layover, but after a couple hours, I'm about as alert and functioning as well as I am after like 4 beers.

It's reality. The tough-guy macho bull**** attitude about rest and sleep is impressive and all, but not realistic OR safe.

Would you really want to be riding with your family on the back of an RJ with a crew on day 4 after an 8 hour layover on their 9th hour of duty/4th leg, shooting the VOR into Asheville?

I don't.

So true.

Here is a situation I encountered.

I was on reserve and assigned a High Seed, Continuous Duty, standup, etc...whatever you want to call it.

9pm report and 9am release...7 hours on the ground in between flights...so I got 5 hours of sleep.

After returning to base, I was released for the rest of the day, and told I was assigned airport reserve starting at 6am the following morning.

Of course by the time I got home at 10:30am following the CD, I was dead tired and needed sleep. I laid down to take a nap and woke up 3 hours later. Finally I felt rested.

Unfortunately, when I then tried to go to bed at 9pm in order to get up at 445am to get to the airport for my 6am start to my duty day, I couldn't sleep. Wake up the following morning on 5 hours of sleep...head to the airport and hope I don't get called out before I can get a nap in the crew room. Luckily for me, I didn't get paged out...I would have had no choice but to call fatigued.

I went from working the night shift to the morning shift in under 24 hours.

Completely unacceptable but perfectly legal. Hell, I had 18 hours of time between duty periods/"rest".

Even if you are a line holder, you could have a schedule with a High speed and less than 24 hours after release you are back for an early report. No way you can turn your body around that quickly.

 

[Saluki Dawg]

I'm sorry, I don't care how tired I am. I pledge to all of you that I will never pull into the stick shaker during a stall recovery or override the pusher either. Now do I think this crew was possibly fatigued? Absolutely. Do I think that even if the Capt. had proper rest that he wouldn't have panicked and reacted in the very same manner? Absolutely not! IMHO, fatigue was only a symptom of a much larger issue which was poor airmanship and decision making on the part of the crew. Now with all that said, there but by the grace of God go I.

 

[densoo]

Breaking News: FAA to require airlines to properly train pilots

That's the other side of this crash. Part of the savings the airlines, large and small, is to cut training to the bare minimum, that minimum being only what is required by the FAA and nothing more. That way the lawyers can tell the CEO to say after the crash, "we did everything the FAA required." What isn't said is "....and absolutely nothing more."

Implied in all this is the airlines have no safety program other than the bare minimum standards set by the FAA. Beyond that is a waste of money. Unless you consider the lawsuits by the families after an accident to be a cost. Nah. Insurance company pays them.

 

[Jar Jar]

so did anything actually happen or is babbit just blowing hot air again?

 

[Raskal]

So wait, is the article saying that better training with flight attendants would have improved the outcome of the Buffalo flight that day? Um, what?

Idiotic article illustrating some of the latest "theories" at the top of the FAA...but hey, ALPA says he's cool...

 

[Bringupthebird]

How did the Colgan Captain do on his basic piloting tests when the F/O decided to raise the flaps (uncommanded by the pilot flying)? I mean they do test for crewmembers to do just the wrong thing at just the wrong time don't they?

 

[densoo]

The original post is a result of the Colgan crash....2 of the next 3 responses cited rest requirements.

The whole fatigue discussion is legitimate IMO. When an airline creates a culture through low pay, hub selection, and scheduling practices, there are predictable and controllable outcomes to margins of safety. Some of these are just part of their business model, but the affects on safety can be known and mitigated.

One is low pay. They know with certainty that low pay is going to require folks to live a long way from the hub like NYC, or to live nearer in insufficient rest facilities like crash pads with hot bunking and people coming and going at all times of the day and night. They knew this was a problem because they told people they weren't allowed to sleep in the crew room. Proof positive that they were aware of the issue.

Another is fatigue calls. If they are aware of market forces at all, and certainly they are as MBAs, then every airline that has a lose-pay fatigue policy should be held liable for any incidents/accidents resulting from fatigue. A pilot should never fly fatigued, but when they lose pay in a fatigue call the result is entirely predictable. The FAA or Congress should make a rule/law that prohibits loss of pay for a fatigue call.

 

[densoo]

So wait, is the article saying that better training with flight attendants would have improved the outcome of the Buffalo flight that day?

A draft of the sim profile is already floating around the internet. If the FA senses a rapid bumping like boat going across choppy water, they are to immediately contact the flight deck. As soon as the flight deck answers they are to yell, "RECOVER!" The hands on training during ground school is going to be everyone meeting at a nearby lake for speed boat over choppy water familiarization.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

Joe, the FO commuted in to work via Fedex and slept in a chair in the crew lounge that morning once she arrived in EWR. While she legally did have the rest, hardly seems adequate. However, the responsibility to show up to work rested and prepared will always be up to the pilot. Thousands of professionals are able to do this time and time again without making it to the headlines and (thankfully) no one getting injured or killed.

 

[densoo]

Joe, the FO commuted in to work via Fedex and slept in a chair in the crew lounge that morning once she arrived in EWR. While she legally did have the rest, hardly seems adequate. However, the responsibility to show up to work rested and prepared will always be up to the pilot. Thousands of professionals are able to do this time and time again without making it to the headlines and (thankfully) no one getting injured or killed.

Pilots should not fly if unfit to fly.

But,

When the airline creates a culture in which pilots have to do this to feed themselves--and know very well this is happening (they prohibited sleeping in the crew room)--then the airline bears some responsiblity for this accident.

 

[waveflyer]

I agree with all the posters that said cumulative and situational fatigue were a factor. If you don't- you're just wrong- Also agree w/ salukiGod of aviation- that I wouldn't make the mistakes that capt made- and I like this step- I still don't think Sims are the problem- we could get rid of a LOt of the undisciplined riff-raff if we got rid of the complete joke of FAA written tests.

Want to raise the bar on the quality of pilots, make the tests more like the Bar. Hell, make it a challenge that a 4th grader couldn't pass in a week at least.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

What kind of bat guano is this? You can train us to fly the whole simulator profile inverted if you want to, but if you're not going to hold people who fail accountable for those failures it's a pointless exercise. That crash had nothing to do with pilot training, and had everything to do with making sure pilots are well rested and paid enough so they don't have to travel across the country to have a place to live. When a McDonald’s employee can make more than a pilot in a year you would think that we have a problem.

So the contention is, that in the Colgan case, if the pilots had been paid more money they would have made different personal choices with reference to their commute or would have moved to Newark. They would therefore have been better rested and responded properly to what amounts to an unnoticed degradation of airspeed, had that airspeed and configuration oversight still occurred they would have executed properly a basic maneuver taught at the private pilot level....because they were better rested.

 

[BoilerUP]

Higher pay don't fix stupid, ie. pulling into a stick shaker.