Bombardier to sell 120 planes to NETJETS???

[bluepost]

That is a big slap in the face from you guys to Gulfstream. I agree that Gulfstream makes a way better product, but I can't see how Gulfstream would not give a counter offer for the G650 over the Global 7000 and 8000? They may be cheaper, but the operating costs will be higher. You guys have the largest "G" fleet in the world, and to add the G650 would save costs in terms of training and maintenance since you are already set up for it, now to add a whole new fleet to your mix will cost big time. I don't see the logic....

This will eliminate the Falcons and possibly the G200, along with the GIV and G450/550/V. They will be consolidating fleets, which in the long run will save them money.

That being said, I would of rather that we stay with Gulfstream. No matter how good of a car Acura makes, even though it may be better is several key areas, it will never be a Mercedes.

 

[NJA Capt]

Santulli cancelled a bunch of Cessna orders and switched to Raytheon products when cessna started Citation Shares, didn't he?

Not true.

CS was started in 2000. Cessna execs sought Santulli's opinions before starting CS and Santulli "welcomed the competition."

During the early years of CS, NetJets was still ordering Bravos/Encores/XL/Sovereigns. The CJ3/Beechjet debacle was in 2004. NetJets made a $1Billion Cessna order in 2007.

 

[BoilerUP]

Other than having an even more diverse long-haul fleet for a short term, I think this is actually a pretty smart move for both Bombardier & NJA.

I'd bet Bombardier gave a steep discount to NJA to secure a sizable fleet order, and they get a massive operator with substantial financial means to help "break in" their new types once they come online. NJA can absorb new aircraft teething pains/maintenance issues in a way your average 91 operator simply cannot simply due to scale, and Bombardier can work out the kinks before private deliveries really start en masse.

Still very surprising to see NJA move away from Gulfstream, but its becoming increasingly clear with this and the Embraer order that price point relative to performance matters a LOT.

 

[exagony]

Flexjet seems to have lots of managers and no leaders at the helm...

 

[jonjuan]

Not true.

CS was started in 2000. Cessna execs sought Santulli's opinions before starting CS and Santulli "welcomed the competition."

During the early years of CS, NetJets was still ordering Bravos/Encores/XL/Sovereigns. The CJ3/Beechjet debacle was in 2004. NetJets made a $1Billion Cessna order in 2007.

his pride cost him his job and brk millions. He could have bought the challenger 300 and put flexjet out of business. pride got the best of him. he cant be dumb enough to think the beechjet would be better for the customers than the cj3. he figured he would buy a ton of crap for cheap and the owners or pilots wouldnt care. pride cost employees jobs as well.

 

[jonjuan]

Flexjet seems to have lots of managers and no leaders at the helm...

interesting how a big bank account translates to "better management." remember, if nja was not backed by buffet and its cheap money, they would be out of business (buffett or sokol recently said this). the big bank account also translates to more government subsidies.

 

[Pervis]

Not true.

CS was started in 2000. Cessna execs sought Santulli's opinions before starting CS and Santulli "welcomed the competition."

During the early years of CS, NetJets was still ordering Bravos/Encores/XL/Sovereigns. The CJ3/Beechjet debacle was in 2004. NetJets made a $1Billion Cessna order in 2007.

The tipping point was when CS introduced the CE680. Prior to that Cessna promised RTS they wouldn't compete directly, and keep it in their short range nitch. Anyone who has any experience around him knows this triggered a typical "Italian" reaction. Unfortunately, decisions based almost purely on emotion typically backfire.

 

[ArtVandalay]

Here's how it went down:

Sokol: We really prefer Gulfstreams sorry.
Pierre: Ok, how about this: we sell you 120 of these things and we'll throw in Flexjet for free??

 

[exagony]

interesting how a big bank account translates to "better management." remember, if nja was not backed by buffet and its cheap money, they would be out of business (buffett or sokol recently said this). the big bank account also translates to more government subsidies.

Well they (NJ) are selling airplanes/shares and Flexjet isn't... if you refuse to offer the product, you can't sell it can you?

 

[jtf]

They announced a specially designed crew rest area on the Globals- maybe they included a seat for a full time mechanic. I believe that the Gulfstreams are more reliable and the reliability issues may cost us some owners. At the same time, there aren't any other fractional options for large cabin aircraft so the vast majority of owners who need it are going to have to make the change unless they can afford to lease or own a Gulfstream outright (I do foresee a hunk of the Gulfstreams going over to EJM with current owners, but how big that hunk is can't really be foreseen now).

As far as the Globals replacing the Falcon and G-200, I don't see it. The Global 5000, even after a deep discount, has to be more than 5 million more than the 2000LX and I'm sure it's operating costs are also significantly more. NJA has around 40 2000 classics and EZ that are very well loved by the customers with the huge cabin and flight attendant service and I just can't imagine NJA "saving money" with consolidation if you lose a big hunk of customers because you didn't give them a reasonable option to be consolidated into. Maybe Flex will eat up those customers and get a bunch more 605s. I guess we will have to wait for the dust to settle before we see where this is all really heading.

I also don't see this as a nail in the coffin for Flex. No way will NJA be taking on all the smaller airframes and customers. This just precludes Flex from getting their foot in the door for large cabins. Flex will continue on doing what they do and this order in no way will be hammering them out of business.

 

[ArtVandalay]

Yea, flex will continue on doing what we do...shrinking the fleet, laying off, deception from the top, do I have to continue??

 

[rajflyboy]

his pride cost him his job and brk millions. He could have bought the challenger 300 and put flexjet out of business. pride got the best of him. he cant be dumb enough to think the beechjet would be better for the customers than the cj3. he figured he would buy a ton of crap for cheap and the owners or pilots wouldnt care. pride cost employees jobs as well.

Have you ever been in a CJ3 ?

Obviously not. The 400 blows the CJ3 away in all respects. CJ3 is "rinky dink".

 

[rajflyboy]

Gulfstream doesn't have to make special deals. They have a waiting list to buy the planes they are building.

Thats because their airplanes are the best Corporate Jets in the world.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/jet_setter_dogfight_for_wings_dY44RQtBAuBKBUDqy4VyJJ

 

[BoilerUP]

The 400 blows the CJ3 away in all respects.

You've obviously never flown and/or been a passenger in either airframe.

How many CJ3s have sold in the last 6 years relative to the Beechjet, again?

 

[Club ORD FO]

Wow thats a lot of airplanes. Have you Netjets folks been told what these airplanes are for? I is the fractional market in that category big enough to support that order?

But either way, congrats to Netjets, its a nice plane and a nice move by your company.

Not a good day to be a flexjet pilot however...

 

[jtf]

Gulfstream doesn't have to make special deals. They have a waiting list to buy the planes they are building.

Thats because their airplanes are the best Corporate Jets in the world.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/jet_setter_dogfight_for_wings_dY44RQtBAuBKBUDqy4VyJJ

My guess is the waiting list gets shorter and shorter as NJA gradually sells off there combined fleet of nearly 50 G-IVs, 450s, Vs, 500s and 550s. Sure many will still want the new bird, but quite often the used Gs go for more than new prices. That will change with the volume NJA will be adding to the market as the Globals come online. The NJA airframes certainly won't be going for more than new since they will have a lot of time on them, but that many will have an effect on the market. I guess I would prefer for NJA to have stayed with Gulfstream, but if they aren't willing to deal, then I guess I'll have to hope the customers like the bigger tubes and that the mx doesn't eat us up.

 

[rajflyboy]

My guess is the waiting list gets shorter and shorter as NJA gradually sells off there combined fleet of nearly 50 G-IVs, 450s, Vs, 500s and 550s. Sure many will still want the new bird, but quite often the used Gs go for more than new prices. That will change with the volume NJA will be adding to the market as the Globals come online. The NJA airframes certainly won't be going for more than new since they will have a lot of time on them, but that many will have an effect on the market. I guess I would prefer for NJA to have stayed with Gulfstream, but if they aren't willing to deal, then I guess I'll have to hope the customers like the bigger tubes and that the mx doesn't eat us up.

Its all just Business at the end of the day.

 

[Heavy Set]

Any guesses to eventual consolidated fleet plan?

First, as a CL300 driver, let me say that I love my airplane (not Flexjet or XOJet). I like almost everything about it. True that it isn't a Global, but I can vouch for the quality and performance that I experience on almost a daily basis. Other people may have different opinions. Personally, I'd be very happy to have the extra range and the extra room in the back of an XRS or Global. Too bad the Embraer 450/500 wasn't ordered - those airplanes with their sidesticks/FBW look pretty slick...

Are any of these Globals going to Netjets Europe or are they primarily NJA bound?

So, what does the "eventual" consolidated Netjets fleet look like - say in 2015-2020? Any guesses? Are we talking primarily Embraer Phenoms, XLS, Sovereigns and the Globals/XRS? What about the new Citation Xs to replace the older versions? I realize a lot can change in 5-10 years (dart to a dartboard).

 

[ultrarunner]

Other than having an even more diverse long-haul fleet for a short term, I think this is actually a pretty smart move for both Bombardier & NJA.

I'd bet Bombardier gave a steep discount to NJA to secure a sizable fleet order,

Yep, Gulfstream doesn't have to sweat having a loss leader.

Good luck with that customer support.

 

[gret]

Yep, Gulfstream doesn't have to sweat having a loss leader.

Good luck with that customer support.

I doubt that anyone is really worried about this. Not a fan of Bombardier, but they do know the business.

There has been several posts about customers buying into these airplanes, but the fact is that nobody is rushing to buy a fractional interest in an a/c. Sales are still down from the glory years and customers know the market and owning a piece of an a/c still isn't that exciting to most of them.

Owners are better business people than those running aviation companies and one has to question, who is going to pay for these new units?