B19 Flyer

[fischman]

Really. You're also funny and why are you so obsessed about me? I like ousting LIARS.

I do post on other forums, but I don't ever venture beyond this forum on fliteinfo because I know how I get stalked. You look on other forums and other sites such as airlinepilotcentral and you'll find me there. My style is no different, just a different screen name. Go post yourself a thread on the 121 forums here on FI.com. I want to read it.

As a union member, you don't want to hear the truth of management. I am very familiar with the truth of management. You want to believe that you and your bretheren are loved and adored. Not true fischman. Unions are despised by management because they create situations that can bring doom, turmoil and financial ruin to a well run company. Then why does NetJets management use the union as a marketing tool for safety???

Unions are only good for union members, and that is questionable at best. That is why it is called a UNION. It serves the DUES paying members. I've seen many union members get cast aside by the "forget the bottom third and save the pay and work rules for the top two/thirds" mentality of unions that you so adore. If you were on that bottom third, I have confidence that you would feel quite so secure with your CBA and the union attitude. It's the Union way. Seniority rules.

There are international carriers without unions fischman. I know because I work for one. Really??? WHICH ONE?

You can't believe it's true.. so don't. I haven't a thing to prove to you or anybody else. If you want credibility you do.

Either way, your union will eventually fail you and you will blame management because it's the union way. How will that happen? The only way a union can "fail" is if it stops serving the best interest of it's members. the NetJets pilots have successfully ousted 2 unions that did not have our best interest at heart. As long as there are people like myself, flylow, CA1900, and BeeDubya to keep the leadership honest failure is not a possibility.
You are the type of guy that can't believe you can't pay your mortgage because you bought more house than you could afford, or too much car. Never been late on a car or mortgage payment. Try again. Yes fischman, you are the type of guy that will never believe or admit that your CBA was too much for the company too afford so you will blame management. If they couldn't afford it, why did they sign it?



The funniest thing of all is that the union will not adjust the contract fischman. .

That is why it is called a "contract".

 

[CA1900]

If you were on that bottom third, I have confidence that you would feel quite so secure with your CBA and the union attitude.

I'm in the bottom third, and would rather be temporarily out of work from a well-paying job, than be continuously employed at a mediocre one.

You are the type of guy that can't believe you can't pay your mortgage because you bought more house than you could afford...

No, he's the type of guy who can actually afford a mortgage because of collective bargaining. My last job was non-union, and was nothing but turmoil.

The funniest thing of all is that the union will not adjust the contract fischman. It will keep in where it is and blame the company when times get tight and it becomes difficult to pay for.

The salary of the pilots has no bearing on the number of them that the company needs.

 

[brokeflyer]

we dont make enough money to "alter" the contract to give money back. I can't tell you the specfics because of confidentiality laws, but, our contract don't even register on the bottom line.....it's that small.

The money we make now IS for the bad times......when things get good then we can maybe get some more money.



Bring it on

 

[B19 Flyer]

Labor and fuel.

we dont make enough money to "alter" the contract to give money back. I can't tell you the specfics because of confidentiality laws, but, our contract don't even register on the bottom line.....it's that small.

The money we make now IS for the bad times......when things get good then we can maybe get some more money.



Bring it on

Two largest expenses for any entity operating aircraft: Labor and fuel.

It's laughable that you think your contract doesn't register on the bottom line...

 

[imacdog]

Yep and our labor is paid for by our owners and cardholders in their contracts. Don't worry, it's covered.

So really B, why no posts in the 121 forums? You seem to have quite the impressive background in 121; I think you're doing the airline forum a disservice by not sharing your vast amount of knowledge there.

 

[brokeflyer]

Two largest expenses for any entity operating aircraft: Labor and fuel.

It's laughable that you think your contract doesn't register on the bottom line...

well I've seen the numbers....that is why the company isnt asking for conssesions.

I would tell you but it would violate confidentiality agreements.....sorry.

 

[wacoflyr]

B19, if you really want a coherent argument, why do you reply so selectively? Granted, there are a lot of people to reply to. But you consistently fail to answer several relevant questions.

1. Why do you post here istead of on the majors board, if that is who you work for?

2. Why do you consistently suggest that we are less important than management, despite that fact that we are the ones who deal with owner's trials and tribulations, and our own management constantly emphasizes how important our customer service is to our companies? I mean, if management thinks we are as important as any other element of the company, why would you deny this?

3. Why do you constantly bring up conspiracy theories, when no one else even knows what you mean?

Wacoflyr

 

[wacoflyr]

What bothers me the most is that this thread had actually slipped to the second page, and here it is back again. (sigh)

Waco

 

[hyflyin]

What bothers me the most is that this thread had actually slipped to the second page, and here it is back again. (sigh)

Waco

Ditto

 

[hyflyin]

I'm in the bottom third, and would rather be temporarily out of work from a well-paying job, than be continuously employed at a mediocre one.


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No, he's the type of guy who can actually afford a mortgage because of collective bargaining. My last job was non-union, and was nothing but turmoil.



The salary of the pilots has no bearing on the number of them that the company needs.

What he said! Bottom third baby, such is life.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19, if you really want a coherent argument, why do you reply so selectively? Granted, there are a lot of people to reply to. But you consistently fail to answer several relevant questions.

1. Why do you post here istead of on the majors board, if that is who you work for?

2. Why do you consistently suggest that we are less important than management, despite that fact that we are the ones who deal with owner's trials and tribulations, and our own management constantly emphasizes how important our customer service is to our companies? I mean, if management thinks we are as important as any other element of the company, why would you deny this?

3. Why do you constantly bring up conspiracy theories, when no one else even knows what you mean?

Wacoflyr

Waco,

1) I post on the fractional board because I was involved in the development of the fractional industry as it stands today as a part of the original FAA rulemaking committee. The fact that I work now back in 121 is meaningless in this conversation, just like you being a pilot in a non-union company is meaningless.

I do post on the other boards in different forums. I don't use this screen name on other websites. Unions like to silence those that disagree with their theories and concepts because reality hurts.


2) I have never once suggested that pilots are less important than management. That is your perception. I do think that if you disagree with your management, a union will not help your cause where becoming involved with them will.

I have clearly stated that unions are less important than management. I have never stated that pilots should not be well paid. I have always stated that a union CBA is what becomes crippling to an air carrier because it removes options from management in regards to flexibility of payroll, work rules, scope clauses and creates a division of turmoil within the company, especially during periods of negotiation.

Customer service? How does that come into the picture? That's a given... I've never discussed that on these threads.


3)You seem to think that I post to keep this thread near the top. That is your personal conspiracy theory. The fact is, when I am gone for a period of time, the thread will fall. If I happen to log in and feel that I need to respond, I do. You seem to enjoy pointing that out. Like I previously stated.. it's meaningless.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Deak with it...

What bothers me the most is that this thread had actually slipped to the second page, and here it is back again. (sigh)

Waco

Deal with it. I'll respond to posts on my schedule, not yours.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Yep and our labor is paid for by our owners and cardholders in their contracts. Don't worry, it's covered.

So really B, why no posts in the 121 forums? You seem to have quite the impressive background in 121; I think you're doing the airline forum a disservice by not sharing your vast amount of knowledge there.

As stated, I do post. Not on this website and not using this screen name.

If you think that your labor is completely paid by management fees, you are only fooling yourself and it shows that you don't understand the financial structure of a fractional (or any airline). You realize that every 100K salary costs the company on the average an additional 70% once company contributions to taxes, benefits and training are figured in, right?

 

[wacoflyr]

Some of us contribute more to the industry than others. People like you just fly the line and take advantage of the efforts that people like me put into making things better.

2) I have never once suggested that pilots are less important than management.


These two quotes contradict each other. Earlier in this thread you suggested that while you would never work for me, I might someday work for you. The threat was implied, but clear. In today's atmosphere of rampant corporate greed, it is impossible not to be on the defensive.
You rant against unions, and yet I have not seen you put forth an alternative(you might have somewhere, can't read them all). You tell us to stand on our own feet, yet every single airline or fractional management team that I have ever heard of treats us in the way that they are forced to by circumstances; as a group. And yet you don't want us to behave as a group. Do you seriously think I can waltz into the DO's office and have a discussion about a raise? The laughter would interrupt the work of dozens of managers. Corporate greed is a given. After all, they are supposed to add as much to the bottom line as possible. Yes, most individual managers are good moral people. But they look to find dollars in every corner that they see, which leads them, inevitably, to my paycheck. They act as a group, called management, and work in a system that rewards cutting the pay of the groups of employees in their control. And that is what they have done.
You don't like the groups known as unions. Fine. Please clearly state what alternative I, as an individual pilot have to negotiate my pay. Don't tell me I don't have to struggle to get paid what I am worth. We both know I do. So tell me, what do I do?
How do I, as an individual, get the group known as management to pay me appropriately for my services? I sure can't rely on altruism. Be specific please. I've got my popcorn ready.

Wacoflyr

 

[fischman]

I do post on the other boards in different forums. I don't use this screen name on other websites. Unions like to silence those that disagree with their theories and concepts because reality hurts.

On what forums under what screen names?