B19 Flyer

[brokeflyer]

Two largest expenses for any entity operating aircraft: Labor and fuel.

It's laughable that you think your contract doesn't register on the bottom line...

well I've seen the numbers....that is why the company isnt asking for conssesions.

I would tell you but it would violate confidentiality agreements.....sorry.

 

[wacoflyr]

B19, if you really want a coherent argument, why do you reply so selectively? Granted, there are a lot of people to reply to. But you consistently fail to answer several relevant questions.

1. Why do you post here istead of on the majors board, if that is who you work for?

2. Why do you consistently suggest that we are less important than management, despite that fact that we are the ones who deal with owner's trials and tribulations, and our own management constantly emphasizes how important our customer service is to our companies? I mean, if management thinks we are as important as any other element of the company, why would you deny this?

3. Why do you constantly bring up conspiracy theories, when no one else even knows what you mean?

Wacoflyr

 

[wacoflyr]

What bothers me the most is that this thread had actually slipped to the second page, and here it is back again. (sigh)

Waco

 

[hyflyin]

What bothers me the most is that this thread had actually slipped to the second page, and here it is back again. (sigh)

Waco

Ditto

 

[hyflyin]

I'm in the bottom third, and would rather be temporarily out of work from a well-paying job, than be continuously employed at a mediocre one.


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No, he's the type of guy who can actually afford a mortgage because of collective bargaining. My last job was non-union, and was nothing but turmoil.



The salary of the pilots has no bearing on the number of them that the company needs.

What he said! Bottom third baby, such is life.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19, if you really want a coherent argument, why do you reply so selectively? Granted, there are a lot of people to reply to. But you consistently fail to answer several relevant questions.

1. Why do you post here istead of on the majors board, if that is who you work for?

2. Why do you consistently suggest that we are less important than management, despite that fact that we are the ones who deal with owner's trials and tribulations, and our own management constantly emphasizes how important our customer service is to our companies? I mean, if management thinks we are as important as any other element of the company, why would you deny this?

3. Why do you constantly bring up conspiracy theories, when no one else even knows what you mean?

Wacoflyr

Waco,

1) I post on the fractional board because I was involved in the development of the fractional industry as it stands today as a part of the original FAA rulemaking committee. The fact that I work now back in 121 is meaningless in this conversation, just like you being a pilot in a non-union company is meaningless.

I do post on the other boards in different forums. I don't use this screen name on other websites. Unions like to silence those that disagree with their theories and concepts because reality hurts.


2) I have never once suggested that pilots are less important than management. That is your perception. I do think that if you disagree with your management, a union will not help your cause where becoming involved with them will.

I have clearly stated that unions are less important than management. I have never stated that pilots should not be well paid. I have always stated that a union CBA is what becomes crippling to an air carrier because it removes options from management in regards to flexibility of payroll, work rules, scope clauses and creates a division of turmoil within the company, especially during periods of negotiation.

Customer service? How does that come into the picture? That's a given... I've never discussed that on these threads.


3)You seem to think that I post to keep this thread near the top. That is your personal conspiracy theory. The fact is, when I am gone for a period of time, the thread will fall. If I happen to log in and feel that I need to respond, I do. You seem to enjoy pointing that out. Like I previously stated.. it's meaningless.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Deak with it...

What bothers me the most is that this thread had actually slipped to the second page, and here it is back again. (sigh)

Waco

Deal with it. I'll respond to posts on my schedule, not yours.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Yep and our labor is paid for by our owners and cardholders in their contracts. Don't worry, it's covered.

So really B, why no posts in the 121 forums? You seem to have quite the impressive background in 121; I think you're doing the airline forum a disservice by not sharing your vast amount of knowledge there.

As stated, I do post. Not on this website and not using this screen name.

If you think that your labor is completely paid by management fees, you are only fooling yourself and it shows that you don't understand the financial structure of a fractional (or any airline). You realize that every 100K salary costs the company on the average an additional 70% once company contributions to taxes, benefits and training are figured in, right?

 

[wacoflyr]

Some of us contribute more to the industry than others. People like you just fly the line and take advantage of the efforts that people like me put into making things better.

2) I have never once suggested that pilots are less important than management.


These two quotes contradict each other. Earlier in this thread you suggested that while you would never work for me, I might someday work for you. The threat was implied, but clear. In today's atmosphere of rampant corporate greed, it is impossible not to be on the defensive.
You rant against unions, and yet I have not seen you put forth an alternative(you might have somewhere, can't read them all). You tell us to stand on our own feet, yet every single airline or fractional management team that I have ever heard of treats us in the way that they are forced to by circumstances; as a group. And yet you don't want us to behave as a group. Do you seriously think I can waltz into the DO's office and have a discussion about a raise? The laughter would interrupt the work of dozens of managers. Corporate greed is a given. After all, they are supposed to add as much to the bottom line as possible. Yes, most individual managers are good moral people. But they look to find dollars in every corner that they see, which leads them, inevitably, to my paycheck. They act as a group, called management, and work in a system that rewards cutting the pay of the groups of employees in their control. And that is what they have done.
You don't like the groups known as unions. Fine. Please clearly state what alternative I, as an individual pilot have to negotiate my pay. Don't tell me I don't have to struggle to get paid what I am worth. We both know I do. So tell me, what do I do?
How do I, as an individual, get the group known as management to pay me appropriately for my services? I sure can't rely on altruism. Be specific please. I've got my popcorn ready.

Wacoflyr

 

[fischman]

I do post on the other boards in different forums. I don't use this screen name on other websites. Unions like to silence those that disagree with their theories and concepts because reality hurts.

On what forums under what screen names?

 

[shanes123]

Deal with it. I'll respond to posts on my schedule, not yours.

BT was on vacation last week riding around in a FLOPS beechjet and probably didnt bother to bring his laptop

 

[imacdog]

As stated, I do post. Not on this website and not using this screen name.

If you think that your labor is completely paid by management fees, you are only fooling yourself and it shows that you don't understand the financial structure of a fractional (or any airline). You realize that every 100K salary costs the company on the average an additional 70% once company contributions to taxes, benefits and training are figured in, right?

Yeah and I'm sure the company never thought of that when drafting the contracts. I certainly had NOOOOOOOO idea that the company spends money on training for the pilots and benefits; that's really insightful stuff there, B.

So which other forums do you post in and what user name do you go by? I'd love to be educated on your vast airline experience.

 

[brokeflyer]

You realize that every 100K salary costs the company on the average an additional 70% once company contributions to taxes, benefits and training are figured in, right?

well they better raise the rate, cause I'm about 35k/yr short of that new boat.....

We still dont make enough.....but we are making progress....can't eat a big mac in one bite ya know.

 

[fischman]

....can't eat a big mac in one bite ya know.

I accept your challenge!!!

 

[B19 Flyer]

The value of anything is what somebody is willing to pay for it, not a penny more.

Some of us contribute more to the industry than others. People like you just fly the line and take advantage of the efforts that people like me put into making things better.

2) I have never once suggested that pilots are less important than management.


These two quotes contradict each other. Earlier in this thread you suggested that while you would never work for me, I might someday work for you. The threat was implied, but clear. In today's atmosphere of rampant corporate greed, it is impossible not to be on the defensive.
You rant against unions, and yet I have not seen you put forth an alternative(you might have somewhere, can't read them all). You tell us to stand on our own feet, yet every single airline or fractional management team that I have ever heard of treats us in the way that they are forced to by circumstances; as a group. And yet you don't want us to behave as a group. Do you seriously think I can waltz into the DO's office and have a discussion about a raise? The laughter would interrupt the work of dozens of managers. Corporate greed is a given. After all, they are supposed to add as much to the bottom line as possible. Yes, most individual managers are good moral people. But they look to find dollars in every corner that they see, which leads them, inevitably, to my paycheck. They act as a group, called management, and work in a system that rewards cutting the pay of the groups of employees in their control. And that is what they have done.
You don't like the groups known as unions. Fine. Please clearly state what alternative I, as an individual pilot have to negotiate my pay. Don't tell me I don't have to struggle to get paid what I am worth. We both know I do. So tell me, what do I do?
How do I, as an individual, get the group known as management to pay me appropriately for my services? I sure can't rely on altruism. Be specific please. I've got my popcorn ready.

Wacoflyr

Those two statements don't contradict each other, how do you figure?

Pilots are not expected to contribute to the industry. The are an integral part of the fabric, but are only there to execute the rules that others put together.

Management on the other hand is paid to make the rules and contribute to the industry. Pilots are not.

What I see that I wrote is a fair statement. If you want to contribute to the industry, take the risk and step into management. You think by flying you take all the risk. Wrong.. you don't. Most accidents that happen are system failures with multiple facets to them. It's rarely only one thing.

In either case, both pilots and management are important to the industry, and are required componants in the industry.

Unions however are not required in the industry. All air carriers have pilots, all have management. Not all of them have unions.

By your choice to become a pilot at an air carrier, part of the fabric is that all pilots are paid to scale. If you want to fly and negotiated, then fly contract for yourself. You accepted that as part of the employement, you knew that when you became a pilot.

The value of anything is what somebody is willing to pay for it, not a penny more.

 

[wacoflyr]

By your choice to become a pilot at an air carrier, part of the fabric is that all pilots are paid to scale. If you want to fly and negotiated, then fly contract for yourself. You accepted that as part of the employement, you knew that when you became a pilot.

The value of anything is what somebody is willing to pay for it, not a penny more.

In my opinion, the two statements were contradictory, but we'll leave that aside. You are dodging the issue that pilots, as an industry are not fairly compensated. My management has stated this. Historically, we have lost somewhere between a third and a half of our compensation, depending on who you talk to. I can safely say I am undercompensated, and I don't think you can argue that point. So I asked you the question; what do I do? Your response is, quite literally, that I am only going to get paid what management is willing to pay me. In other words, there is nothing I can do about it. Well, some pilots, perhaps most, don't want to just take that any more. And no, they cannot easily just go to the highest bidder. We all know that the seniority system, adopted by carriers even where there is no union, forces us to stay, for the most part, with one carrier. So you would leave pilots with no mechanism to negotiate with.
In an ironic way, unions are like democracy. Neither one works particularly well, and they don't really satisfy anybody. But, usually, they are better than the alternative. My company doesn't have a union, and I'm glad because management here seems to be responsive. If I were at some other carriers, however, I would, with regret, pay my dues and hope the union could help right the injustice that some management teams perpetrate.

You don't want pilots to negotiate, B19. Deal with the fact that if you don't treat them as a vital, intelligent group of people who make your industry possible, they will organize and force you to pay them more than you want to. Play fair, B19, or get a union. It's that simple.

Wacoflyr

 

[fischman]

The value of anything is what somebody is willing to pay for it, not a penny more.

That includes a CBA.

 

[shanes123]

STOP engaging this idiot..hes being paid by FLOPS to spread is Sh$T ...there are such more important topics to discuss in this industry with the econmy the way it is..Lets all stop replying to BT eventualy he will go away..Or now that Ricci took back over he will probably be fired shortly anyway and he will be gone..Looks like CS is on the verge of another furlough and NJ is still hanging in there..This is whats important..Getting our brothers back into there lively hoods

 

[B19 Flyer]

STOP engaging this idiot..hes being paid by FLOPS to spread is Sh$T ...there are such more important topics to discuss in this industry with the econmy the way it is..Lets all stop replying to BT eventualy he will go away..Or now that Ricci took back over he will probably be fired shortly anyway and he will be gone..Looks like CS is on the verge of another furlough and NJ is still hanging in there..This is whats important..Getting our brothers back into there lively hoods

First, I'm not an idiot. I don't belong to a union.

Next, as this thread is about the moderator correctly clarifying that I don't work for FLOPS, you are once again.. barking up the wrong tree. woof woof.

The furloughs that are happening are companies making adjustments where they have to. NJ is handcuffed by a CBA and they will hang on just as long as they can before the do.. but when they do it's going to be a lot more miserable than anything the rest of the industry will see. The rest of the company will get shredded first, and then.. and only then will the company furlough pilots.

 

[Captain Dork]

this means divorce....

I lay in bed thinking about the bizarre domestic analagies this company can represent:

A man or woman changes spouse five times in ten years. The person is unstable obviously. Raytheon Hart, FlightOptions Ricci, Raytheon Nahil, Raytheon Scheringa, FlightOptions HIG Ricci, FlightOptions Ricci Brantley HIG. This is in home terms the house with crap laying all over the front yard, the screen door with no hydraulic spring, peeling paint.

The man of the house has a job selling. First he has 1050 clients, he diminishes over a four year period down to 550 clients. He tells himself he's right-sizing his customer base as he's pounding his ninth beer down of the day. Thing go wrong during the day, he blames the customer. The economy softens, he loses more customers. Now 400 of his customers are at his competitors and 150 are out of business. He was the cheap supplier, so more of the customers were at the edge. The man of the house is driving a eight year old Buick with 140,000 miles on it. He decides he's going ot reinvent his business. His competitors laugh.

He decides he's going to sell a different product-this new super-duper thing that going to change everything.

You smell stale beer, see the rumped shirt and the old Buick, you remember his house, the change of spouses, and you say to yourself, this guy's a ______