B19 Flyer

[B19 Flyer]

Management greed and selfishness astounds me!

If it wasn't for that, there would be no "union greed".

It is management that keeps a company alive and because you don't feel like you make enough money you percieve it to be greed?

Unions don't ask for big money because of fairness or to keep the company from going out of business, they do it out of greed.

They made different career choices, and as NJW once stated, you had your chance...

 

[B19 Flyer]

not true, management wanted a union. That action is a direct result of being butt boned. Truth.

Pay me what my job is worth and POOF!!!

no more union needed.

Broke, unions aren't just about pay, it's about squeezing a company and controlling everything within it. CBA's don't stop with just payroll. For each additional day you want off the cost can run into the millions depending on the size of the pilot group. It's about stifling programs in the name of safety, scope clauses to restrict growth, rest rules that a 90 year old senior would find generous in retirement, hotels the average person can't afford and meals so pilots no longer have to pack a lunch.

It's not about pay, it's about squeezing the company for everything it's got and telling the rest of the employees to screw off...

 

[B19 Flyer]

When you view airline flying this way it becomes immediately apparent why only a seniority system can work to allow pilots to advance in pay, scheduling, and from copilot to captain, and to larger airplanes. Since every pilot meets the same standard they are all equal in performance. For those who are no longer equal, they're grounded.

Being equal in performance and meeting the FAA standards in training does not mean that all pilots are equal. If this were true, the words "pilot error" would never be written in any NTSB report.

This in no means takes away from the actions of the A320 crew because it was indeed extraordinary. But, from an industry perspective there are rules built around the structure for which procedures and safety is designed.

The author of this article talks about advancement by seniority, and not furlough by seniority. He does not address the indefinables that extend beyond that of a training standard which will make one pilot be more valuable to a company than another. He doesn't address the number of "sick calls", additional training days or ability to work within the system to maximize safety.

Pilots all train and are equal to the task, but that is where the comparison ends. Being a professional pilot extends far beyond that of simply meeting a standard.

 

[brokeflyer]

Broke, unions aren't just about pay, it's about squeezing a company and controlling everything within it. CBA's don't stop with just payroll. For each additional day you want off the cost can run into the millions depending on the size of the pilot group. It's about stifling programs in the name of safety, scope clauses to restrict growth, rest rules that a 90 year old senior would find generous in retirement, hotels the average person can't afford and meals so pilots no longer have to pack a lunch.

It's not about pay, it's about squeezing the company for everything it's got and telling the rest of the employees to screw off...

ok, ill remember that as you spend every night at home with your family.

I'll rephrase, if the company would pay me what the job is worth, and give me benefits for my family and treat me like the professional that I am, guess what, then no union required.

I hate how pilots need a union, this is the last job that should require a union. It's like we're uneducated morons sweeping floors. But management, in order to rape a company, needs to treat us like that.

Times are changing, if you wanna travel you gotta pay someone to do it.

I know it sucks for management not to get that last penny that drops to floor but that's the world they made. Im just trying to live in it, sucks too.

 

[Fozzy]

It's about stifling programs in the name of safety,
Your right. ASAP, maintenance pilots, and the such are such a waste.
scope clauses to restrict growth,
protecting us from Pedro flying for $10 and hour you mean
rest rules that a 90 year old senior would find generous in retirement,
I don't know how many 90 year old seniors you know, but they DON'T sleep. Bad comparison. If you cracked a book, rest and fagigue is one of the biggest challenges to pilots. Or is NASA on the Union payroll?
hotels the average person can't afford
Horse chit. Super 8 is not conducive to rest, you sleep with the cockroaches and bed bugs
and meals so pilots no longer have to pack a lunch.
I would love to pack a lunch. But I don't have a cooler big enough for a week. I would also love to go out to lunch, but those pesky management types figured it made much more money to keep the talent in the cockpit and not in a booth at the local dinner.

It's not about pay, it's about squeezing the company for everything it's got and telling the rest of the employees to screw off...

It is about my pay and benefits. I have chosen to have a group represent me in getting a contract for my abilities. I pay for this (dues). If the other groups of the same abilities (job) want to be represented, then good for them. But I don't pay (dues) for the folks that don't belong to my Union. It is not "screw off..." it is more like do the work and get your own representation. I am not a charity. It is a big, tough, mean, ugly world. I think you need to move back in with Mom.

 

[Freedom]

Anyone Notice How Bob19 ignors.....

The fact that out of the 4 Major Fractional Companies, ONLY the Company with a Pilot Contract in force has not Laid Off or Furloughed Pilots during this just short of a Depression economy.

That's not to say that NetJets won't at some point down the road.

But it does illustrate just how strong a company can become when they give up some control (which a CBA demands) and make their front line employees (Pilots) partners in the business.

Its only little man management that can't accept that their Pilots might have something more to contribute to the company beyond just flying the airplane. Make them Partners in the Business, by treating them well and compensating them fairly, and a stronger company just might emerge.

NetJets is a classic example. Hope you guys stay strong and no one gets let go before the upswing.


Freedom is Not Free

 

[AceCrackshot]

As a matter of fact I do but it's not because I worked there, it's because I worked with former management from there. Still can't admit that Lorenzo saved as many jobs in other airlines as was lost in the Eastern debacle can you?

Still haven't seen that top ten list yet.

You have to have been on the FLOPS Pilots Message Board...the one that FLOPS Management ILLEGALLY hacked into. Since I don't have access anymore, I can't get it.

So, how exactly did Frank Lorenzo save jobs? Which jobs, where? In what way did FL fufill his fiduciary responsibility to Eastern Shareholders?

For example, Lorenzo or his inner circle have been "... CEOs, founders, or top executives of existing or new airlines, which included: JetBlue, PeoplesExpress, TWA, New York Air, Midway Airlines, Chicago Air, and Presidential..." (source Wiki.)

Now, I'm no expert, but that group isn't exactly a Who's Who of Airline Management Success, now is it?

Truly, this would be fascinating to hear. Kind of like the rantings of someone off his Thorazine. The internal logic is consistent, but you know that its still the mad ravings of a bat ******************** crazy lunatic.

 

[AceCrackshot]

But it does illustrate just how strong a company can become when they give up some control (which a CBA demands) and make their front line employees (Pilots) partners in the business.

Its only little man management that can't accept that their Pilots might have something more to contribute to the company beyond just flying the airplane. Make them Partners in the Business, by treating them well and compensating them fairly, and a stronger company just might emerge.


Freedom is Not Free

I think "control" vs. "goverence" is the model here.

A union shop, with proper management, like a federal government model. Lanes of authority are drawn by the CBA, and people operate in those lanes. Checks and balances, consensus decision-making. Not optimum, but far from the worst model.

A non-union shop, is practically speaking, a dictatorship. If the dictator is benelovent and wise, things can get done. If not, the almost universal tendency is for management to laager the wagons, and see the workers as their immediate threat. Target fixation occurs (on both sides) as everyone takes their eye off the ball of running a company and rushes to secure the spoils of a thousand small, and ultimately inconsequensial fights, while the ship of the company is going towards the shoals.

 

[993_Pilot]

It is management that keeps a company alive and because you don't feel like you make enough money you percieve it to be greed?

It is management that raids corporations then leave with millions of dollars of bonus. That is true greed.

Bernie Madoff (Madoff Investment Securities)

Bernard Ebbers (Worldcom)

Jeffrey Skilling & Ken Lay (Enron)

Alan H. Fishman (Washington Mutual)

Phillip R. Bennett (Refco)

Stephen C. Hilbert (Conseco)

None were union members, but all were management, and members of the True Greed Club! All told this group alone probably lost 100's of Billions for their investors. I wouldn't even want to venture a guess as to the loss of jobs and the effect these guys have had on peoples lives . . . some even committed suicide! That is true Greed. It is this sort of folks that caused the financial crisis that the world is experiencing right now. Unfortunately, there are lots more where this group came from.

Unions don't ask for big money because of fairness or to keep the company from going out of business, they do it out of greed...

Companies get a union when they deserve one. It is management that consistently fails to live up to the promises that they make. When that happens time after time, pretty soon you find yourself working for a company that doesn't even resemble the one you hired on to. Flops has been through 4 different management teams, and not a single one has lived up to what they said they would. Our current management team is on their second attempt, after their first attempt was cut short. Whether the current backers will give them enough time to ride out the world financial crisis and get the company turned around remains to be seen. You can rant all you want about our choice to stay or leave, but life is never that simple. For most of us, there are other considerations like other family members jobs, proximity to extended family, realestate to sell in a depressed market, etc. Flops didn't have a union for 7 years, and we see where that got us. We went from being the highest paid fractional to the lowest. I'll take my chance with the 1108... It is about time that the front line employees were compensated fairly!

 

[B19 Flyer]

The fact that out of the 4 Major Fractional Companies, ONLY the Company with a Pilot Contract in force has not Laid Off or Furloughed Pilots during this just short of a Depression economy.

That's not to say that NetJets won't at some point down the road.

But it does illustrate just how strong a company can become when they give up some control (which a CBA demands) and make their front line employees (Pilots) partners in the business.

Its only little man management that can't accept that their Pilots might have something more to contribute to the company beyond just flying the airplane. Make them Partners in the Business, by treating them well and compensating them fairly, and a stronger company just might emerge.

NetJets is a classic example. Hope you guys stay strong and no one gets let go before the upswing.


Freedom is Not Free

I haven't ignored it, but when NJ gets hammered it's going to get hammered a lot worse than all the others combined. The bigger the payroll, the bigger the CBA, the harder it's going to fall.

And as I've stated before, will NJASAP open the contract and save jobs or will it let the bottom of the seniority list bite the dust. My bet? You low seniority guys are going to be toast, and I feel really bad for you.