B19 Flyer

[Hogprint]

NJ is handcuffed by a CBA

You've stated this several times and I've challenged you at least twice about it. How is NJA handcuffed by a CBA they helped negotiate?

 

[B19 Flyer]

You've stated this several times and I've challenged you at least twice about it. How is NJA handcuffed by a CBA they helped negotiate?

United, American and Delta all had industry leading contracts.

None of them were "hampered" 18 months after they were signed and if the same question was posed as you are today the answer would have been no.

However, by the end of the 2nd year, the most unionized airline was in bankruptcy (United)and the next unionized was teetering on bankruptcy (American). The least unionized was still more than 2 years away (Delta).

So while the NJA contract may not appear to be hampering anybody yet, historically, industry leading contracts stretch the limits, even in good times.

My predicition last fall (even before the turndown) was the NJA was going to have to suck it up before the end of this year. We still have 9 months to go.

When it comes to unions, history always repeats itself, it's rare that a union learns from their mistakes. All of the situations above could have been avoided by the union acknowledging the change in the economy.

NJA? They can't adjust as well as the others based on the CBA. When the cuts come, they will be larger and deeper. More people will be hurt than all the other fracs combined.

 

[fischman]

More people will be hurt than all the other fracs combined.

NetJets is bigger than all the other fracs combined. It's like saying you have farther to fall off the summit of Mt. Everest than off Pike's peak. DUH!!!

 

[CA1900]

Admit it, Fisch -- you're just a "cowboy" because you won't accept a broken airplane.

 

[fischman]

Cowboys are awesome.

 

[wacoflyr]

After I implied that this guy was narcissistic and he called me an a$$, I tried to engage him in an open, honest discussion about what recourse we pilots have. As always, he has dodged the tough questions. He cut off the conversation when I made direct arguments against his major points.
It is clear to everybody on this forum that pilots, as a group, are underpaid, and that we have lost somewhere between a third and a half of our earning power in the last 40 years. Management, of course, has gained considerable earning power, at our expense. What do we do about it? B19 would have us "stand on our own two feet" instead of organizing. I asked him how I, an underpaid individual, would then negotiate my pay? Now he states that I am paid to scale, and knew this when I became a pilot, thereby refusing to answer a simple, direct question that is at the heart of his whole argument. I guess standing on my own two feet isn't going to help, after all.
He knows that the only way we can negotiate is to organize. But you won't admit that, will you B19? You want us to act as individuals, so that you can underpay us as a group. You say you suffered working at a carrier that had unions. Look at all the pilots that have suffered layoffs while management took bonuses. Remember AMR after they negotiated pay cuts from the flight attendants? It cuts both ways, B19. If you don't give us a way to negotiate, we will create our own.

It would be refreshing if you respond to my points, but I don't think you will. You can't, really. You are wrong.

Wacoflyr

 

[G4dude]

After I implied that this guy was narcissistic and he called me an a$$, I tried to engage him in an open, honest discussion about what recourse we pilots have. As always, he has dodged the tough questions. He cut off the conversation when I made direct arguments against his major points.
It is clear to everybody on this forum that pilots, as a group, are underpaid, and that we have lost somewhere between a third and a half of our earning power in the last 40 years. Management, of course, has gained considerable earning power, at our expense. What do we do about it? B19 would have us "stand on our own two feet" instead of organizing. I asked him how I, an underpaid individual, would then negotiate my pay? Now he states that I am paid to scale, and knew this when I became a pilot, thereby refusing to answer a simple, direct question that is at the heart of his whole argument. I guess standing on my own two feet isn't going to help, after all.
He knows that the only way we can negotiate is to organize. But you won't admit that, will you B19? You want us to act as individuals, so that you can underpay us as a group. You say you suffered working at a carrier that had unions. Look at all the pilots that have suffered layoffs while management took bonuses. Remember AMR after they negotiated pay cuts from the flight attendants? It cuts both ways, B19. If you don't give us a way to negotiate, we will create our own.

It would be refreshing if you respond to my points, but I don't think you will. You can't, really. You are wrong.


If we voluntarily work for what we are paid, then we are not underpaid. The marketplace compensates us adequately, or else there would be a shortage of pilots in the employment pool. I have a successful business on the side, and I suggest any pilots desiring more money do the same. There doesn't appear to be any more salary increases in the offing any time soon, dear colleagues.

Wacoflyr

If we voluntarily work for what we are paid, then we are not underpaid. The marketplace compensates us adequately, or else there would be a shortage of pilots in the employment pool.
I have a successful business on the side, and I suggest any pilots desiring more money do the same. There doesn't appear to be any more salary increases in the offing any time soon, dear colleagues. Study up, learn other skills, and create more income. Maybe we all will survive President Obama's well intentioned dismantling of the economy.

 

[PCL_128]

However, by the end of the 2nd year, the most unionized airline was in bankruptcy (United)

The most unionized airline is SWA, not UAL. As someone who claims to be so informed on 121 matters, I would expect you to know this.

The most unionized airline has never been in bankruptcy. In fact, they've never been close. The most unionized airline has been growing by leaps and bounds for decades. The most unionized airline is the biggest domestic airline by a considerable margin, and is still planning on additional growth in years ahead. The most unionized airline has been continuously profitable for a record span.

Anything else you want to know about the "most unionized airline?"

 

[FR8DOG777]

You know, B19, there is a very easy way to put to bed all the misinformation about who you are: simply reveal your identity.

I'll show you exactly what I mean: BeeDubya is Brian Ward, NetJets' Citation X Pilot and NJASAP Steward.

Done. No questions about who I am.

Fraternally,
Brian

Hey Brian how you doing these days? Why don't you educate O'l 19 about our reg following law abiding management and your free all expense paid trip to cgf for not wanting to fly a plane with half the circuit breakers in the panel popped. Good times, of course MANAGEMENT didn't have to fly the aircraft or risk getting ramped did they?

 

[Flex-ible]

Anything else you want to know about the "most unionized airline?"

Serious question: what does it mean to be "most unionized"? I thought it was like being pregnant: either you are or you are not.

 

[PCL_128]

Serious question: what does it mean to be "most unionized"? I thought it was like being pregnant: either you are or you are not.

It means the greatest percentage of the labor force that is unionized. Almost every labor group at SWA is unionized.

 

[B19 Flyer]

The most unionized airline is SWA, not UAL. As someone who claims to be so informed on 121 matters, I would expect you to know this.

The most unionized airline has never been in bankruptcy. In fact, they've never been close. The most unionized airline has been growing by leaps and bounds for decades. The most unionized airline is the biggest domestic airline by a considerable margin, and is still planning on additional growth in years ahead. The most unionized airline has been continuously profitable for a record span.

Anything else you want to know about the "most unionized airline?"

You didn't read the post, did you?

I listed the 3 largest legacy carriers with industry leading contracts that were all signed in the 2000-2001 area of time. SWA isn't a legacy carrier, nor was it part of my example because it was not industry leading, although it was the best because it made the most sense. I also want to point out that the SWA contract is something nobody else would ever do because it means union members would have to accept risk and it ebs and flows with the success of the company. You can't compare your contract with the SWA contract because your contract will not accept risk by making profit sharing a substantial part of the contract.

With that stated, of the three that I listed, United was the largest carrier thus the most unionized in relationship to having the most unionized members vs non unionized in the company.

Of the three, the amount of employees represented by unions at Delta is by far the least. Thus, they are the least unionized carrier.

 

[B19 Flyer]

After I implied that this guy was narcissistic and he called me an a$$, I tried to engage him in an open, honest discussion about what recourse we pilots have. As always, he has dodged the tough questions. He cut off the conversation when I made direct arguments against his major points.
It is clear to everybody on this forum that pilots, as a group, are underpaid, and that we have lost somewhere between a third and a half of our earning power in the last 40 years. Management, of course, has gained considerable earning power, at our expense. What do we do about it? B19 would have us "stand on our own two feet" instead of organizing. I asked him how I, an underpaid individual, would then negotiate my pay? Now he states that I am paid to scale, and knew this when I became a pilot, thereby refusing to answer a simple, direct question that is at the heart of his whole argument. I guess standing on my own two feet isn't going to help, after all.
He knows that the only way we can negotiate is to organize. But you won't admit that, will you B19? You want us to act as individuals, so that you can underpay us as a group. You say you suffered working at a carrier that had unions. Look at all the pilots that have suffered layoffs while management took bonuses. Remember AMR after they negotiated pay cuts from the flight attendants? It cuts both ways, B19. If you don't give us a way to negotiate, we will create our own.

It would be refreshing if you respond to my points, but I don't think you will. You can't, really. You are wrong.

Wacoflyr

You seem to forget the original concept of unions.

Unions were developed to protect workers at a time where they were not making a wage they could feed their families on. There were no federal laws or opportunities to escape to a better life for various reasons such as geographical. This isn't true today.

You on the other hand made choice of career. You knew what you were getting yourself into when you made that choice. If it was all about the money, you should have gone to college and become a doctor or lawyer instead. You shouldn't be surprised at what you make. There is no negotiation of pay in aviation and the unions have seen to it.

Now, if you want to make more money in aviation, the traditional way is to work your way up the ladder to flying large airplanes internationally. The door is there for you, you just need to do it. Nobody is handcuffing you to a small salary. Economic times are tough now, but it wasn't that long ago where majors were hiring like crazy. You also don't have to work for a legacy carrier.. there are a lot of international carriers flying large equipment that will pay better than most. Is it all about the money though?

No.. it's not. It's about making the carrier pay what you think you are worth, not what the market or business plan will support.

 

[gunfyter]

Yes it IS all about the money....

What else would it be about?

Thats what business is about.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Yes it IS all about the money....

What else would it be about?

Thats what business is about.

According to most on this board, it's all about making management fix airplanes and run the company differently. They somehow think a CBA is going to fix all the things they hate about working for the company, which couldn't be further from the truth.

All the CBA affects is pay and work rules.

 

[gunfyter]

Well making the company fix airplanes etc., is about working conditions....

Otherwise you could wind up in a platinum jet / teterboro situation.

And that is MORE important than pay ... thanks for correcting me. I was assuming a company that fixes planes and obeys the FARs.

But the grievance provisions of a CBA can help with that....

 

[dime line]

Unions were developed to protect workers at a time where they were not making a wage they could feed their families on. There were no federal laws or opportunities to escape to a better life for various reasons such as geographical. This isn't true today

Oh wow, federal laws hu? Isn't true today...hu?

Go Jet 1st yr
23.00 X 74 (monly guar)=1702.00 X 12=20424 per yr

Horizon 1st yr
29.00 X 75 (monly guar)=2175.00 X 12 =26100 per yr

Pinnacle 1st yr
21.00 X 75 (monly guar)=1575.00 X 12 =18900 per yr

regular 10.00pr hr job
10.00 X 40hr =400 X 4=1600 X12 = 19200 per yr

they were not making a wage they could feed their families on

Spin these numbers moron!!!! Skanza jump in too!!!!

So in summary, Pilots have college, ratings and are gone from home.
The hourly worker, no college, no ratings, no gone from home

Looks to me like I'll take a professional union any day!

 

[B19 Flyer]

Oh wow, federal laws hu? Isn't true today...hu?

Go Jet 1st yr
23.00 X 74 (monly guar)=1702.00 X 12=20424 per yr

Horizon 1st yr
29.00 X 75 (monly guar)=2175.00 X 12 =26100 per yr

Pinnacle 1st yr
21.00 X 75 (monly guar)=1575.00 X 12 =18900 per yr

regular 10.00pr hr job
10.00 X 40hr =400 X 4=1600 X12 = 19200 per yr



Spin these numbers moron!!!! Skanza jump in too!!!!

So in summary, Pilots have college, ratings and are gone from home.
The hourly worker, no college, no ratings, no gone from home

Looks to me like I'll take a professional union any day!

Dimeline... NOBODY forced you to be a pilot. Nobody.

What they pay is not relevent. If you wanted to make money, you can do anything you want for a living.

When unions were developed THERE WERE NOT OTHER OPTIONS. They were limited by the type of work there was of the day.

Nobody is making you fly airplanes. That is a choice, not a mandate as it would have been 75 years ago.

Is it more important to feed your family or fly airplanes for a living?

If you are choosing to fly airplanes, deal with the low initial pay and the high rewards as seniority builds.

Blame the union for companies no longer hiring into the left seat like they used to. You wanted a seniority based system.. you got what you asked for.

There are few professions that can almost guarantee a near six figure income with only 10 years experience. Other professions have college expenses also, but few build wealth quicker over a decade.

Remember.. you made the choice. If you want the money, go with a bigger airplane, a larger company and take your career into your own hands rather than making somebody else live up to your expectations because you are too lazy to change jobs and take control over your career.

Federal laws are there to protect workers. They didn't exist back in those days dimeline.. you are working in one of the most highly regulated forms of employment possible.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Calling your bluff...

Oh wow, federal laws hu? Isn't true today...hu?

Go Jet 1st yr
23.00 X 74 (monly guar)=1702.00 X 12=20424 per yr

Horizon 1st yr
29.00 X 75 (monly guar)=2175.00 X 12 =26100 per yr

Pinnacle 1st yr
21.00 X 75 (monly guar)=1575.00 X 12 =18900 per yr

regular 10.00pr hr job
10.00 X 40hr =400 X 4=1600 X12 = 19200 per yr



Spin these numbers moron!!!! Skanza jump in too!!!!

So in summary, Pilots have college, ratings and are gone from home.
The hourly worker, no college, no ratings, no gone from home

Looks to me like I'll take a professional union any day!

I'll spin them... Those are first year pay, right?

What is the increase for 2nd year?

What is the 10 year pay?

Now start listing professions that equal that type of pay increase over that period of time.

 

[gunfyter]

I could have done almost anything else with my college degree and been better off financially than by being a pilot....

I think it was AC/DC that said:

"Its a long way to the top if you wanna Rock-n-Roll."​

And its a long way back to the bottom too.


We paid the PRICE ... to get where we are. You haven't paid it. Nothing gets me as PO'd as someone trying to devalue the worth of Pilots....

Thats why there are unions .... You want to buy me ... my blood sweat and tears at a cheap price.

I had a rough ride getting to where I am now, and I won't apologize for making a 6 figure salary. I worked hard for it, doing things other people won't do or can't do. Getting screwed along the way by people who devalue what it takes to do what we do.