Awa/usairs Arbitration In !

[Doug Parker]

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I'm sure that the top 517 AAA guys are pretty Butt-hurt over the whole deal.............

Funny that Nicolau gave 3x the number of widebody captain slots (176) to the Easties...........

If the Widebody Captain flying is the cream of the crop, why did you have to look more than 1000 numbers down the list to find the most JR WB captain ??

Your MEC sold you furloughees down the river once before and sealed your fate with their BS DOH rhetoric - you probably would have done better had the AAA MEC been a little more reasonable............




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[acbarney]

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Your MEC sold you furloughees down the river once before




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Once?!?!? Somone has not been paying attention

 

[Bringupthebird]

Screwed?

Maybe some people like to lock themselves into a perpetual funk, but no one gets screwed until the first vacany bid comes out and an eastie gets beat out by a westy. It's unlikely that anyone will make a lateral move just to hold a line on another type of equipment, so moves, if any, will be made for upgrades. If the first round of upgrades comes to the east, a westy might have to think long and hard about moving to the tundra in order to sit reserve. The money just doesn't justify it. Now a lineholder, well maybe. But who can predict where the first upgrades will be? Sell your house in Scottsdale to move yourself to Philly when if you waited 6 months you could have saved yourself the trouble? And the Philly guy might not want to buy a 1500sf house for $450,000 in Phoenix if he could wait it out for a few months and stay put. In all likelihood, both sides will grow in parallel and the progression of folks in the middle will be just about as fast or as slow as it otherwise would have been. JMHO

Now a base or fleet reduction is a screwing all around, but something of such a massive scale would probably be the harbinger of the end, and that's somewhat unlikely.

Perspective. Get cranked up over what is likely, not what is "possible".

 

[A350]

The problem is not the relative seniority....as you westies are so quick to point out.....

Yes, in the award, you lost percentage points of relative seniority. The size of your airline doubled. You have claimed widebody flying after 4 years or when the age 60 rule crumbles. You have claimed 5 times the advancement by gaining the seniority combined with the attrition.
West pilots never had more than 75 retirements/year. The East guys were looking at advancement at 3-5 times the rate. That is all gone.

Would it be so bad to let some 55 year old poor bastard who has seen the brink of hell in this career have a little dignity by being a Captain the last 5 years of his career?

The die has been cast....the product it will make is anyone's guess. I wouldn't expect smooth sailing.

A350

 

[Bringupthebird]

Would it be so bad to let some 55 year old poor bastard who has seen the brink of hell in this career have a little dignity by being a Captain the last 5 years of his career?
A350

Sure, tell the top widebody guys to pull their requests for waivers and all agree to retire at 60. Keep the pain confined to it's origin.

 

[Fast43]

The problem is not the relative seniority....as you westies are so quick to point out.....

Yes, in the award, you lost percentage points of relative seniority. The size of your airline doubled. You have claimed widebody flying after 4 years or when the age 60 rule crumbles. You have claimed 5 times the advancement by gaining the seniority combined with the attrition.
West pilots never had more than 75 retirements/year. The East guys were looking at advancement at 3-5 times the rate. That is all gone.

Would it be so bad to let some 55 year old poor bastard who has seen the brink of hell in this career have a little dignity by being a Captain the last 5 years of his career?

The die has been cast....the product it will make is anyone's guess. I wouldn't expect smooth sailing.

A350

Read the award there was no advancement to look at. we knew it the Board knew it but you guys just can't or wont wrap your brains around it. maybe its a tough pill to swallow but the facts are the facts


Clearly you would give up your seat or anticipated upgrade seat to this guy because he has had a tough go of it !!! I guess I missed that part of merger policy where it says one side should give upgrades to the other if they have had a tough career. He is already enjoying the dignity of being employed.
It is good to know that if Parker hadn't wanted to take this on that this guy could come over to your airline and have your seat so he wouldn't have to retire at 55.

Or if your on the east side I'm sure you will bypass upgrade so the older guys junior to you can have it!!!

 

[vetrider]

The problem is not the relative seniority....as you westies are so quick to point out.....

Yes, in the award, you lost percentage points of relative seniority. The size of your airline doubled. You have claimed widebody flying after 4 years or when the age 60 rule crumbles. You have claimed 5 times the advancement by gaining the seniority combined with the attrition.
West pilots never had more than 75 retirements/year. The East guys were looking at advancement at 3-5 times the rate. That is all gone.

Would it be so bad to let some 55 year old poor bastard who has seen the brink of hell in this career have a little dignity by being a Captain the last 5 years of his career?

The die has been cast....the product it will make is anyone's guess. I wouldn't expect smooth sailing.

A350

That post is fair enough, I won't argue, and I agree in large part. I would just like to add that in my opinion its a little misleading. First of all, this list won't take effect for quite some time, in the meantime east guys are getting those vacancies, as they should of course. Second of all not all the east advancement would be gone under one list, east folks will still have shots at vacancies. Third, I doubt a whole lot of guys would be jumping at the chance to upgrade back in the lions den where east guys would not exactly be rolling out the red carpet(to put it mildly).

For the record, I do agree with the stance of the east neutral regarding the recalled east guys from March 06 or so until early this year, they should not have been placed behind Odell.

There is alot of angst already, and there will be for a long, long time. I do feel for the east fos, and by hook or crook I do hope as many as possible will see the captain seat again. Oh well, enough babbling, this is the biggest can of worms i've yet seen in my lifetime. I truly wish there were some easy answers to be had.

If someon had a plan that would allow the east fos to upgrade at a rate reflecting the east attrition without completely freezing out west guys, I'd certainly be all ears and be receptive to the idea. But, i'm just one guy. Allright, enough babbling for real this time, once again, it is a can of worms that just flabbergasts me.

 

[vetrider]

A couple other points. 75 retirements a year is a pretty decent percentage of roughly 1800 pilots. East guys also will be able to bid for west vacancies as well, when and if we are ever combined that is.

 

[say again]

Good luck to both groups!! One thing I've learned is that is impossible to keep everyone happy in a merger, people will always get screwed.

 

[trainer8]

Man,that's sweet.The ink isn't even dry on the combined senority list yet and we have our first CEL pilot whining already. If you think you can do better somewhere else we all, both east and west, invite you to give it a try.


PHXFLYR

No whining here. I knew exactly where I would end up on the Combined Seniority List. I only hoped Nicolau would disregard the precedent setting attempt of one pilot group demanding the termination of other airline's pilots. He did! Amazing! Now, however, I'm not sure he did me a favor.

But, back to your post...your comment(s) have only confirmed my original posts regarding professionalism.

Fact is, I have done better. My first year at MDA was the best year of my aviation carreer. I flew with the finest of aviation gentlemen and women, most consumate professionals, and the closest pilot group I've been associated with.

Congratulations AWA pilots. You saved Dave. In fact, he may qualify for aviation sainthood, given his new relative seniority.

T8

 

[A350]

It stings a little when your pre-merger expectation was to see single digit seniority for your final few years of employment only to have it unravel. The way the list is now, instead of single digit, I end up @ 1200. How this is even close to fair, equitable, or comprehensible is beyond me.

Whether AWA or U was headed to financial ruin shouldn't matter. They are one company now and as such, no crystal ball could tell you what would have happened to either without the merger.

300 retirements a year on a 3000 pilot list is 10% a year without growth....that was what a furloughed guy hung his hat on the past few years.

A350

 

[m80drvr]

Congratulations AWA pilots. You saved Dave. In fact, he may qualify for aviation sainthood, given his new relative seniority.

T8

Dave's relative seniority did not change much. In fact, relatively speaking, no body, east or west moved much EXCEPT for the 500 senior U guys. EVERYONE IS BASICALLY IN THE SAME RELATIVE POSITION AS WHEN THE MERGER WAS ANNOUNCED.

 

[Crzipilot]

I think maybe his relative seniority looking forward. Though relative dave moved up about 300 numbers or so overnight??/ Relative seniority, as far as career progression is concerned, it's a bit more disconcerning.

If X pilot was projected to be top 100 for 10 years, then relative to the combined carrier he should end up top 100 for 10 years, or close to it, and with the little reading I did, I think that's what the East side arguement was. or some crap. Anyways, no one will ever agree, so be it...

No, don't need the arguement of US was a failing carrier, or AWA was just behind us. blah blah....we've already heard it.....

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Dave's relative seniority did not change much. In fact, relatively speaking, no body, east or west moved much EXCEPT for the 500 senior U guys. EVERYONE IS BASICALLY IN THE SAME RELATIVE POSITION AS WHEN THE MERGER WAS ANNOUNCED.

DEAD ON POINT M80DRVR!!!!!! nuff said...

WD.

 

[JetMonkey]

It stings a little when your pre-merger expectation was to see single digit seniority for your final few years of employment only to have it unravel.
A350

I really question your honesty on that one right there sir. On 5/05 before the announcement, when all the vultures were circling above watching everyone on the east bleed you and everyone else knew what was about to happen. How can you say "it doesn't matter?" that's what expectations is all about. I'm sorry, but it's time to call a spade a spade. And again, for the record if you ask just about any west pilot, we really didn't want this merger to begin with.