Awa/usairs Arbitration In !

[WSurf]

Shiny jet syndrome claims another generation of morons.

Bingo!

 

[FDJ2]

Astounding. I have absolutely no respect for ALPA anymore and I can promise they will never get another dime from me.

Ready! Shoot! Aim!

ALPA has a merger policy, but ALPA did not make the final decision on how the policy merger would be implemented.

Both the East and the West pilots made their case to a third party arbitrator who listened to the arguments from both sides, interpretted the merger policy and then rendered his decision.

Now exactly how is it that you blame ALPA for this? What in the merger policy do you have a heart ache with?

 

[Superbird]

Sorry guys, but furloughed USAirways pilots were not employed by the carrier at the time of the merger, therefore brought nothing to the table.

What does 15-20 years of seniority get you at USAirways right now? Maybe middle of the road First Officer seniority on 737/A320? What did you expect to happen? Be upgraded overnight? After the first 521 USAirways pilots got DOH, the rest of the active got approximately 'relative' seniority.

As for the furloughed pilots, AAA MEC signed a letter in the Transition Agreement that effectively said the returning furloughed pilots would be junior to AWA's most junior pilot. How many of the furloughed pilots really planned to return? The company went throught the whole list of recalls for th E-190 and began calling 'poolies'. Many fo the Furloughed pilots are employed at other carriers and do not plan to return.

What about the pilots who left USAir and hired on at AWA, taking a chance, whom then merged with AAA. Which seniority did they get? At the time of the merger they brought a job to the table as opposed to their furloughed status at USAir...no job.

From what I've read on this board, the only thing that would have made East pilots happy is DOH. Thats putting all you eggs in one basket.

Superbird

 

[PHXFLYR]

This kind of misplaced anger only helps to drag the company down and make the competition stronger.

But in retrospect...one should observe the differences in career progression between a company that grows from within and one that grows through mergers.

Growth plan, cost control, corporate culture, consistent profitability...If you have that, you won't need mergers

...and regrettably to all except those who work there,the only airline that has figured that out is Southwest.

PHXFLYR

 

[Doug Parker]

Bendhimover said,

"Absolutely remarkable. I admit that I expected the post 1999 hires to be stapled. (Although I could have argued that those hired by AWA after the merger announcement should have been placed below the furloughees -- they knew what they were getting into.)"

NOBODY was hired after the merger announcement - there were people in training and 40 or so in the pool, but ALL were already hired. BTW, I didn't see any of the poolies names on the combined list.

I still wish that the ATA merger would have happened instead of the TITANIC acquisition...........


.

 

[Fast43]

Well, congrats to the AWA folks on your windfall.

I am exactly where I expected to be on the list, and am not surprised. But you cannot be serious if you feel Mondo didn't get screwed. Continuous active service since 1988 and junior to a 2005 hire from AWA, YGBFSM! The lack of fences (too small and will be revoked upon age 65 which seems to be on the fast track) seriously damages the progression of junior East pilots who had career expectations of massive attrtition. Now the AWA pilots will enjoy that attrtition.

Now, that said, this will be very unfortunate for all LCC employees. Right or wrong (and yes it's wrong but completely understandable) there will be ramifications from the East pilots that will hurt everyone. We gotta realize that the individual pilots from AWA are not at fault here and shouldn't be the target of our anger and frustration. OTOH the West posters here who offer misguided opinions as fact and who seem giddy that the East folks were spanked are fair game for those who still care. Have fun and good luck to us all, we'll need it!

Mr. Swaayze

I guess I am looking in the wrong place. I just can't find the part of the ALPA merger policy that says time in service means anything. Using your logic all the guys from Eastern, Braniff, TWA etc are owed better seniority placement whereever they are working because the have 15 years and gave up soooooo much blah blah.

A new company was started and ACTIVE workers were merged exactly as the merger policy directed. Career Expectations is the yardstick not bleeding heart stories of "sacrifice" The east sides MEC absolutley wrecked those guys by incorrectly portraying their expectations.

 

[trainer8]

That's the problem Trainer, this circus we call a profession is going down the tubes! Is this job still a profession?
Look at whats happening in this country! The middle class is eroding, and it seems like its gonna be a two class society in this country!
Back in the 70's CEO's made 16-20 times more then there average worker! Now in this country you see CEO's making 300-400 Times as much money!! See the trend!
So with all thats going on, its hard to remain professional!

And I ask again, is this really a professional job?

Yes, it is. The unprofessionalism comes from what take place outside the cockpit. Reading this thread, with the rhetoric and name calling (idiots, grandpas, etc,), mystifies me. It's not isolated to one pilot group. And I'll be yanking gear for these guys soon? Wow.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Yes, it is. The unprofessionalism comes from what take place outside the cockpit. Reading this thread, with the rhetoric and name calling (idiots, grandpas, etc,), mystifies me. It's not isolated to one pilot group. And I'll be yanking gear for these guys soon? Wow.

Man,that's sweet.The ink isn't even dry on the combined senority list yet and we have our first CEL pilot whining already. If you think you can do better somewhere else we all, both east and west, invite you to give it a try.


PHXFLYR

 

[Turtle21]

Oh yeah he can do better. And if he isn't samrt enought to run now then he will get everything he deserves!

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Oh that one is real easy to answer, because Mr. Colello was unemployed at the time Mr. Odell was hired and working...

WD.

Well, you can correct me if I am wrong (or just 'rant away'), but Mr. Colello was working as a E-170 Capt. on the US Airways mainline certificate. Just because it was all called "MDA" does not change the 'fact' that the E-170 at the time was operated as a 'Mainline a/c.'

All a/c on the US Airways certificate, over which the 'Company' (meaning US Airways) excerises 'operational control' (meaning dispatched through US Airways), are 'mainline a/c'....this is a 'fact' and clearly stated in the collective bargaining agreement. If the Arbitrator did not recognize this, then he as in error.

This issue is currently in greivance/litigation and will be resolved in his favor.

Just for what's it worth. Now continue to 'rant away.'

DA

 

[FLYLOW22]

Absolutely remarkable. I admit that I expected the post 1999 hires to be stapled. (Although I could have argued that those hired by AWA after the merger announcement should have been placed below the furloughees -- they knew what they were getting into.)

But I am mystified as to why those hired in 1987 and beyond were not given SOMETHING for their years of service and the sacrifice they have made for this company. Some of the AWA pilots were 9 years old when their junior counterparts at US Airways was hired!

I would expect mass resignations from ALPA and, very possibly, a retreat from negotiations by East. Why bother with a combined contract now? Keep them separate as long as possible to enjoy the benefits of what little seniority they have.

As far as the post-1999 furloughees, I would imagine that the company will go through the remainder of the list with lightning speed now. Why would anyone return? I would expect the company to be hiring off the street by autumn.

Astounding. I have absolutely no respect for ALPA anymore and I can promise they will never get another dime from me.

(I'm not placing any blame on the AWA pilots who simply fought for the best possible deal and were awarded a windfall.)

Excellent post Bender.

I had a dog in this fight. I am 1999 US hire. I am sure that the resignation will occur soon enough and I am glad that I did not spend the last 5+ years waiting on Mother U. My mass pax flying career seems to have run it's course... and that's fine. In the course of 2 days I have run the gambit of emotions from shock to anger to frustration to shock to shock again and finally resignation (literally).

I must say that I am dissapointed but the process has concluded. I lost. I lost big time. I wish the AWA pilots the best with the trick bag they have been handed. I do also wish that they could be a bit more understanding to the US pilots (thousands) who just got flushed. This was a big deal four us, for everyone. There is no honor in gloating and making accusations and repeating what Nicolau has already written. We know his opinion all too well. Restating it is arrogant and belittling. As the email I recieved from a "friend" stated: "AWA Pilots have won!!!!"... on the surface it seems. More is sure to be on the way, ramifications that have yet to surface and that are, even now, taking form out east. I can feel it.

My particular experience with this annoucement was particularly poinient and real.

======================================================

I flew a trip into PHX with my company. I had not been to PHX for probably 2+ years (we go to SDL mostly) and it was "strange" to see all of the "US Airways" planes flying around doing "airline stuff". This was Cactus country last time I was here. Putting the plane to bed for the night, I recieved an email on my Q from a pilot that I haven't spoken too since the U/UAL merger attempt who now works for AWA. Some friend. He said he wasn't sticking around US anyway because their wasn't enough widebody flying opportunities. Another SJS victim. Can't help em all...

The email was titled "AWA Pilots WIN!!!!!!!!!!". I think I got the correct amount of exclamation points. Anyway, my heart sank a bit and I sought out the nearest computer to look at the details on a large screen. I was sitting next to one of our F/Os (seated at another computer) who had left Delta early to come work for us (age 55 or so). Particularly symbolic. We enjoyed some small talk about the situation while I read the Nicolau award summary. He shook his head in disbelief and I hung mine a bit low too when I found my name about 10% from the bottom of the seniority list. I saw the O'Dell/Collelo situation.

I felt like I was in an emotional funk. I felt like my grandma died. How could the integration go so poorly for US pilots? Answer: It didn't matter. Any "why" question that I could ask at this point was irrelivant. I had to suck it up, finish out the post flight duties and get back to working with a pilot I was paired up with last week who was brand spanking new to the company and full of questions. But how could this have happened? It didn't matter.

I'm walking out to the plane, it's night and a Tuxedo Blue US Airways A320 is taking off of 25R. It's an East plane. I watch it climb, engine roaring for the heavans. I've flown that one most likely. Never again. My eyes leave the A320 and focus on the ramp towards the plane I'm walking to; my NJA Citation. At that moment the realization became concrete that my mass pax 121 career was over at US Airways and perhaps forever. I had 99% come to that realization some time ago but that last 1% is a beotch!

I looked around again at the PHX airport. This was not the PHX I remembered. US Airways was everywhere. They've been busy little bees painting these planes.

The next day I spend 9 hours in the PHX airport. I was booked on a flight from PHX to STL on... US Airways. Outside security I spotted a US East crew. They were huddled around a table in the food court looking at a laptop (most likely with the seniority list displayed). 3 pilots were present and every one of them looked like someone shot their mother. I ate my burrito and went through security.

As I walked to the gate I couldn't help but notice that every AWA pilot seemed to be walking on air. Smiles all around, all going out of their way to say "Hello" to a pilot in a strange uniform (me). I nodded back at each and just watched for hours as several met up in front of CPKs and Starbucks to talk about the inegration. I overheard many conversations... I walked up to several AWA pilots seated and ask "How'd I do?". After a moment of shock at my question (I wasn't in a U or AWA uniform) I explained. Most were quite polite and downright cheerful. Watching them undress the seniority list with their eyes was like looking at a chesire cat that had just eaten a mouse with the tail hanging out of it's teeth. They were happy.

I got bumped from my flight due to an oversold situation. Oh well. I'll take the monetary credit and wait for the next.

I ran into one pilot who was in my newhire class at U in 1999. I hadn't seen him in 6 years probably. He was a Westie now and damn proud of it. I heard all of the comments being made on this board as justification as to why the list ended up the way it did until I simply said, "I'm not coming back." Then the conversation just turned to small talk and times gone by.

I flew home and got in late. The crew was really proud of the "new us airways" on the PA.

=================================================

What's my point? I don't have one. I'm not interested in any counterpoints to what I have written here. It is my experience. It is my viewpoint. West HAS indeed won. I'm not yet sure, however, exactly WHAT West has won though.

From my perspective, I was the 2nd youngest pilot hired at US in 1999. I was going to be a 737 Captain 2 years ago (according to attrition), fly int'l as a Captain the last 11 years of my acareer and be #1 on the list for the last 3 years. Obviously that didn't happen but those WERE my career expectations (I know that's a favorite term right now). If I came back now, I would NEVER be a Captain period.

Regardless of any of the above. There are many emotions flowing right now... All of them actually. All I ask is simply be grateful for what has been given to gou (West pilots), understand outrageous comments made by East pilots as venting and part of the normal human process of trying to cope with stress. Please exercise some restraint and just let them vent. It is the "bigger" thing to do.

The future? Douggie has made his bed. The arbitrator has handed him a HUGE Xmas present in the form of disunity and pilot discord. There is MUCH more to come. There always is. A West pilot told me yesterday that we need to "get this behind us and concentrate on the single contract now!". I guess that is easy to say at #1,700 on a list of 6,520.

"The definition of a good merger is one in which BOTH sides get equally screwed." This was NOT a good merger.

Good luck to all. The economics of the airline remain the same regardless of the list... and so do the challenges. Actually, a new challenge has just been plopped in all of your collective laps; how do we survive by working together when so much bitterness now exists?

 

[BenderGonzales]

I just heard that someone on the East scheduling committee just resigned his ALPA position. Something like, "ALPA didn't do anything for me, why should I continue to volunteer my time for them?"

My wife is in CLT trying to nonrev home. She was trying to get to New England today. Her flight to Boston cancelled so she tried Manchester. It too cancelled (crew availability).

She just ran into Courtney B. -- He is furious.

 

[Swaayze]

FlyLow22,

Nice post, I'd have preferred to leave it as the ender but I'm sure this thread will live on. I think I'm having the same 1% finality experience you speak of, except in my case it was more like a 50/50 shot before now. I guess I'm just getting to the last 1%. It really is the death of hope for hundreds of East pilots and furloughees.


USAirways, where hope is a four letter word.

 

[BenderGonzales]

I was hired Jan 99'. I remember those first couple of trips. Every monday morning a new class would start and I would think to myself, "You just won the lottery...again."

It truly is heartbreaking. My father was hired by US Airways (then Mohawk) in 1968 and it had always been my dream to follow in his footsteps. To look at the situation now and realize that I too have flown my last Boeing is like a kick to the head.

 

[Swaayze]

Is my math correct?

Figuring 5500 active pilots, We'd be approximately at the very bottom upon return with only a handful of furloughed pilots below us accepting recall. Figure G2 Captain at approx 3000, I'd need attrition of 2500 to attain RSV C/O status in a Group 2 aircraft. According to the unverified retirements below that'd put me in the left seat in 2015 assuming age 60 stands (though IMO it won't for much longer, now that it seems to be on the legislative fast track. So you can probably add 3-5 years to these numbers.). Not very attractive when you factor in just how bad it will likely be to work there everyday.


Retirements

Year / East / West / Cumulative

2007 / 228 / 43 / 271
2008 / 177 / 46 / 494
2009 / 232 / 47 / 773
2010 / 194 / 52 / 1019
2011 / 246 / 44 / 1309
2012 / 267 / 65 / 1641
2013 / 283 / 51 / 1975
2014 / 289 / 77 / 2341
2015 / 289 / 69 / 2699
2016 / 292 / 68 / 3059
2017 / 255 / 66 / 3380
2018 / 261 / 85 / 3726
2019 / 209 / 78 / 4013
2020 / 222 / 88 / 4323
2021 / 168 / 90 / 4581
2022 / 165 / 94 / 4840
2023 / 148 / 77 / 5065
2024 / 118 / 92 / 5275
2025 / 97 / 94 / 5466
2026 / 103 / 77 / 5646
2027 / 109 / 68 / 5823

 

[Doug Parker]

.

I'm sure that the top 517 AAA guys are pretty Butt-hurt over the whole deal.............

Funny that Nicolau gave 3x the number of widebody captain slots (176) to the Easties...........

If the Widebody Captain flying is the cream of the crop, why did you have to look more than 1000 numbers down the list to find the most JR WB captain ??

Your MEC sold you furloughees down the river once before and sealed your fate with their BS DOH rhetoric - you probably would have done better had the AAA MEC been a little more reasonable............




.

 

[acbarney]

.


Your MEC sold you furloughees down the river once before




.

Once?!?!? Somone has not been paying attention

 

[Bringupthebird]

Screwed?

Maybe some people like to lock themselves into a perpetual funk, but no one gets screwed until the first vacany bid comes out and an eastie gets beat out by a westy. It's unlikely that anyone will make a lateral move just to hold a line on another type of equipment, so moves, if any, will be made for upgrades. If the first round of upgrades comes to the east, a westy might have to think long and hard about moving to the tundra in order to sit reserve. The money just doesn't justify it. Now a lineholder, well maybe. But who can predict where the first upgrades will be? Sell your house in Scottsdale to move yourself to Philly when if you waited 6 months you could have saved yourself the trouble? And the Philly guy might not want to buy a 1500sf house for $450,000 in Phoenix if he could wait it out for a few months and stay put. In all likelihood, both sides will grow in parallel and the progression of folks in the middle will be just about as fast or as slow as it otherwise would have been. JMHO

Now a base or fleet reduction is a screwing all around, but something of such a massive scale would probably be the harbinger of the end, and that's somewhat unlikely.

Perspective. Get cranked up over what is likely, not what is "possible".

 

[A350]

The problem is not the relative seniority....as you westies are so quick to point out.....

Yes, in the award, you lost percentage points of relative seniority. The size of your airline doubled. You have claimed widebody flying after 4 years or when the age 60 rule crumbles. You have claimed 5 times the advancement by gaining the seniority combined with the attrition.
West pilots never had more than 75 retirements/year. The East guys were looking at advancement at 3-5 times the rate. That is all gone.

Would it be so bad to let some 55 year old poor bastard who has seen the brink of hell in this career have a little dignity by being a Captain the last 5 years of his career?

The die has been cast....the product it will make is anyone's guess. I wouldn't expect smooth sailing.

A350

 

[Bringupthebird]

Would it be so bad to let some 55 year old poor bastard who has seen the brink of hell in this career have a little dignity by being a Captain the last 5 years of his career?
A350

Sure, tell the top widebody guys to pull their requests for waivers and all agree to retire at 60. Keep the pain confined to it's origin.

 

[Fast43]

The problem is not the relative seniority....as you westies are so quick to point out.....

Yes, in the award, you lost percentage points of relative seniority. The size of your airline doubled. You have claimed widebody flying after 4 years or when the age 60 rule crumbles. You have claimed 5 times the advancement by gaining the seniority combined with the attrition.
West pilots never had more than 75 retirements/year. The East guys were looking at advancement at 3-5 times the rate. That is all gone.

Would it be so bad to let some 55 year old poor bastard who has seen the brink of hell in this career have a little dignity by being a Captain the last 5 years of his career?

The die has been cast....the product it will make is anyone's guess. I wouldn't expect smooth sailing.

A350

Read the award there was no advancement to look at. we knew it the Board knew it but you guys just can't or wont wrap your brains around it. maybe its a tough pill to swallow but the facts are the facts


Clearly you would give up your seat or anticipated upgrade seat to this guy because he has had a tough go of it !!! I guess I missed that part of merger policy where it says one side should give upgrades to the other if they have had a tough career. He is already enjoying the dignity of being employed.
It is good to know that if Parker hadn't wanted to take this on that this guy could come over to your airline and have your seat so he wouldn't have to retire at 55.

Or if your on the east side I'm sure you will bypass upgrade so the older guys junior to you can have it!!!

 

[vetrider]

The problem is not the relative seniority....as you westies are so quick to point out.....

Yes, in the award, you lost percentage points of relative seniority. The size of your airline doubled. You have claimed widebody flying after 4 years or when the age 60 rule crumbles. You have claimed 5 times the advancement by gaining the seniority combined with the attrition.
West pilots never had more than 75 retirements/year. The East guys were looking at advancement at 3-5 times the rate. That is all gone.

Would it be so bad to let some 55 year old poor bastard who has seen the brink of hell in this career have a little dignity by being a Captain the last 5 years of his career?

The die has been cast....the product it will make is anyone's guess. I wouldn't expect smooth sailing.

A350

That post is fair enough, I won't argue, and I agree in large part. I would just like to add that in my opinion its a little misleading. First of all, this list won't take effect for quite some time, in the meantime east guys are getting those vacancies, as they should of course. Second of all not all the east advancement would be gone under one list, east folks will still have shots at vacancies. Third, I doubt a whole lot of guys would be jumping at the chance to upgrade back in the lions den where east guys would not exactly be rolling out the red carpet(to put it mildly).

For the record, I do agree with the stance of the east neutral regarding the recalled east guys from March 06 or so until early this year, they should not have been placed behind Odell.

There is alot of angst already, and there will be for a long, long time. I do feel for the east fos, and by hook or crook I do hope as many as possible will see the captain seat again. Oh well, enough babbling, this is the biggest can of worms i've yet seen in my lifetime. I truly wish there were some easy answers to be had.

If someon had a plan that would allow the east fos to upgrade at a rate reflecting the east attrition without completely freezing out west guys, I'd certainly be all ears and be receptive to the idea. But, i'm just one guy. Allright, enough babbling for real this time, once again, it is a can of worms that just flabbergasts me.

 

[vetrider]

A couple other points. 75 retirements a year is a pretty decent percentage of roughly 1800 pilots. East guys also will be able to bid for west vacancies as well, when and if we are ever combined that is.

 

[say again]

Good luck to both groups!! One thing I've learned is that is impossible to keep everyone happy in a merger, people will always get screwed.

 

[trainer8]

Man,that's sweet.The ink isn't even dry on the combined senority list yet and we have our first CEL pilot whining already. If you think you can do better somewhere else we all, both east and west, invite you to give it a try.


PHXFLYR

No whining here. I knew exactly where I would end up on the Combined Seniority List. I only hoped Nicolau would disregard the precedent setting attempt of one pilot group demanding the termination of other airline's pilots. He did! Amazing! Now, however, I'm not sure he did me a favor.

But, back to your post...your comment(s) have only confirmed my original posts regarding professionalism.

Fact is, I have done better. My first year at MDA was the best year of my aviation carreer. I flew with the finest of aviation gentlemen and women, most consumate professionals, and the closest pilot group I've been associated with.

Congratulations AWA pilots. You saved Dave. In fact, he may qualify for aviation sainthood, given his new relative seniority.

T8

 

[A350]

It stings a little when your pre-merger expectation was to see single digit seniority for your final few years of employment only to have it unravel. The way the list is now, instead of single digit, I end up @ 1200. How this is even close to fair, equitable, or comprehensible is beyond me.

Whether AWA or U was headed to financial ruin shouldn't matter. They are one company now and as such, no crystal ball could tell you what would have happened to either without the merger.

300 retirements a year on a 3000 pilot list is 10% a year without growth....that was what a furloughed guy hung his hat on the past few years.

A350

 

[m80drvr]

Congratulations AWA pilots. You saved Dave. In fact, he may qualify for aviation sainthood, given his new relative seniority.

T8

Dave's relative seniority did not change much. In fact, relatively speaking, no body, east or west moved much EXCEPT for the 500 senior U guys. EVERYONE IS BASICALLY IN THE SAME RELATIVE POSITION AS WHEN THE MERGER WAS ANNOUNCED.

 

[Crzipilot]

I think maybe his relative seniority looking forward. Though relative dave moved up about 300 numbers or so overnight??/ Relative seniority, as far as career progression is concerned, it's a bit more disconcerning.

If X pilot was projected to be top 100 for 10 years, then relative to the combined carrier he should end up top 100 for 10 years, or close to it, and with the little reading I did, I think that's what the East side arguement was. or some crap. Anyways, no one will ever agree, so be it...

No, don't need the arguement of US was a failing carrier, or AWA was just behind us. blah blah....we've already heard it.....

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Dave's relative seniority did not change much. In fact, relatively speaking, no body, east or west moved much EXCEPT for the 500 senior U guys. EVERYONE IS BASICALLY IN THE SAME RELATIVE POSITION AS WHEN THE MERGER WAS ANNOUNCED.

DEAD ON POINT M80DRVR!!!!!! nuff said...

WD.

 

[JetMonkey]

It stings a little when your pre-merger expectation was to see single digit seniority for your final few years of employment only to have it unravel.
A350

I really question your honesty on that one right there sir. On 5/05 before the announcement, when all the vultures were circling above watching everyone on the east bleed you and everyone else knew what was about to happen. How can you say "it doesn't matter?" that's what expectations is all about. I'm sorry, but it's time to call a spade a spade. And again, for the record if you ask just about any west pilot, we really didn't want this merger to begin with.