AWA/USAir seniority integration??

[SOVT]

ALPA national shows us as active AAA pilots. There is a new seniority list that will be published any day now that reflects that status. This was in the works months ago, long before there were any merger discussions. As you may know, the original intent was for MDA to have it's own certificate, that did not happen. We operate under the mainline certificate.

This has caused issues, some of which are still being addressed. The original training program had to be rewritten to match mainline's, The Check Airman go thru the mainline training program, management functions for the most part have been added to mainline CPs offices, Express hat devices and wings were recalled and mainline hardware issued.....

 

[JetMonkey]

Just a question from a very nice person.

If your going around slappin nutz I don't think that's very nice.

 

[TheDonger]

Question: Will any former TWA pilots working for AWA demand that USAir pilots get DOH on the intergration? I'll bet not. I would imagine that they will "see the light" and change their tune. Just a question from a very nice person.

I know of a half-dozen former US Airways pilots with over 16 years senority (one had 20 years) that left US Airways to go work for America West in the past year! How do you think they're feeling if this merger occurs? If it were me; I'd be completely distraught. Then again, that's the airline biz, it's a gamble. Good luck to all.

 

[TWA Dude]

Question: Will any former TWA pilots working for AWA demand that USAir pilots get DOH on the intergration? I'll bet not. I would imagine that they will "see the light" and change their tune. Just a question from a very nice person.

You obviously have no idea how merger talks or any negotiations are conducted. I'm not going to demand any specific seniority for anybody. What I shall demand is a fair process which is what we at TWA were denied. The absolute last thing I would want to do to anybody else is what the APA did to us. This is my revenge and my proof of their misdeed: I shall NOT follow in their footsteps! The cycle of pilots stomping on the backs of others can be stopped. Of course I'm just one person and I'm not in any position of influence so I can't predict how anything is going to turn out. But if this monstrosity comes to pass and years from now some mean-sprited punk like you comes along with drivel about how I screwed some other pilot group I will honestly say I was against it. If our merger talks end up in binding arbitration than that is a fair process in my book come what may.

 

[PHXFLYR]

TWADude;


I wish I could have the opportunity to meet you some day. I would like to buy you a beer. That's pretty much how I feel about it ,too should this merger come to pass.

PHXFLYR

 

[Carl S.]

Just like Slap nuts said, when the ink dries, you will not find one Usairways pilot that will fess up that they were or are at deaths door and will want DOH or better.

 

[Focus]

I can see it now. TWA DUDE and PHXFLYR CRYING in their BEER.

TWADUDE: well PHXFLYR, at least we did the fair thing...I just didnt think that would mean me loosing my job..Heck Im back on the street.

PHXFLYR: No worrys Mate, next rounds on me. Ah CHIT, come to think of it I cant afford another round on my new FO PAY.

Sorry Guys, I couldn't resist....You guys are really making me laugh.

 

[TWA Dude]

Focus: you're absolutely right. I'm only 23 years old, AWA is my first airline, I've never been through a merger, I've never been furloughed, I'm completely naiive, and I have absolutely no idea what could happen to my job. Thanks for waking me up. Oh, and my opinion stands. Laugh all you like -- it says a lot about you.

 

[typhoonpilot]

One word, " Fences ". Big and long lasting ones. That will keep things from getting too lopsided, one way or the other. There is no way an America West pilot should be allowed to bid Captain on the A330 for many years. On the other hand there is no way a ( currently very junior 18 year ) USAirways F.O. should be allowed to bid Captain immediately as a result of a seniority integration.

The U MEC had a group look very deeply into past mergers to come up with a possible solution for the proposed UAL/U merger. They have an extensive body of precedent to fall back on and there is certainly a solution that will mitigate any unfair windfalls.

Take myself for example. I'm currently furloughed ( and really have no intention of ever going back ), but if U survived and I was to go back I would retire in the top 10 on the seniority list. I would have extremely good senioirty for my last 7 years. To staple me on the bottom of the America West seniority list such that I would never see the left seat would be patently unfair. It would also be patently unfair for me to be recalled and upgrade anytime within the next 8 years.

Fences are the answer. Most present U pilots are over the age of 45. A 15 year fence would be very reasonable and would mitigate the effects of a date-of-hire seniority integration. Having a clause like you always keep your America West relative seniority when bidding for former America West bases and you always keep your former USAirways seniority when bidding for the Airbus 330 ( or it's replacement, i.e PHL Int'l flying ) would be fair.

Ducking for cover,


TP

 

[aa73]

You obviously have no idea how merger talks or any negotiations are conducted. I'm not going to demand any specific seniority for anybody. What I shall demand is a fair process which is what we at TWA were denied. The absolute last thing I would want to do to anybody else is what the APA did to us. This is my revenge and my proof of their misdeed: I shall NOT follow in their footsteps! The cycle of pilots stomping on the backs of others can be stopped. Of course I'm just one person and I'm not in any position of influence so I can't predict how anything is going to turn out. But if this monstrosity comes to pass and years from now some mean-sprited punk like you comes along with drivel about how I screwed some other pilot group I will honestly say I was against it. If our merger talks end up in binding arbitration than that is a fair process in my book come what may.

Sorry TWAdude but I'm gonna have to call you on that one. While I absolutely disagree with a lot of the APA's actions during the merger, it was your own MEC and your own union that ensured you were denied a "fair process." All APA did was put forth a proposal, only to have your own Bob Pastore refuse to vote on it, and walk out of a meeting... Then APA put forth a second proposal, which is the current one, and it was passed without ALPA even batting an eyelid.

SO I guess the argument can be made that... APA put forth a proposal that was deemed "UNFAIR" by the majority of the TWA membership... and then your own MEC and union just stood by and refused to fight for anything better. Sounds like a lawsuit against ALPA would actually hold water.

73

 

[xanderman]

Take myself for example. I'm currently furloughed ( and really have no intention of ever going back ), but if U survived and I was to go back I would retire in the top 10 on the seniority list. I would have extremely good senioirty for my last 7 years. To staple me on the bottom of the America West seniority list such that I would never see the left seat would be patently unfair.

While I agree with your ideas, however, I believe you must direct your concerns to your very own MEC. If you say you are furloughed then you have no fragmentation rights according to LOA 93. Am I incorrect?
Andy

 

[FR8mastr]

The average age of a U pilot is just over 54 years old. Around 1000 retire in the next two years. Put up a fence or two for a couple of years and it will all work out. Date of hire with fences! Do the right thing for once! FYI this would not be good for me, it is just the right thing

 

[typhoonpilot]

While I agree with your ideas, however, I believe you must direct your concerns to your very own MEC. If you say you are furloughed then you have no fragmentation rights according to LOA 93. Am I incorrect?

Andy, I'm not the least bit concerned. If and when it comes to a seniority integration the U MEC is prepared based on their past research for the UAL merger. Besides, I'm never going back ( although, one should never say never ). Just used myself as an example of what some guy's position might be.


TP

 

[Doug Parker]

I said there would be no negative offect on my AWA Pilots - in fact, we've already ordered the giant staple gun! Get ready Cactus FO's - I see an upgrade in the near future!

Stay tuned for more "As the Merger turns"

 

[Focus]

TWA DUDE LIGHTEN UP...Just having alittle fun with you...I promise to be more respectful in the future. Please dont be mad at me...I didn't realize how battle scarred you were. I guess its a tough industry...Thank God for Unions.

 

[Boeing747Driver]

I said there would be no negative offect on my AWA Pilots - in fact, we've already ordered the giant staple gun! Get ready Cactus FO's - I see an upgrade in the near future!

Stay tuned for more "As the Merger turns"

You must be Smoking the good stuff.

 

[magrs]

"Sounds like a lawsuit against ALPA would actually hold water."

Now we are talking! If the aviation community would actually look at the details of the APA/ALPA behind the scenes scam, it would make you think twice about unions. I look forward to the court transcript!!!

 

[321 busdriver]

To both PHX FLYER and TWA DUDE, As a Piedmont /USAir guy with 20 years, it is refreshing to see some adult attitudes ( as oppesed to Mickey) about this whole thing. I think everyone assumes that U can't wait to link up with AWA so that we can all get back the seniorty we have "lost". How absurd. If the powers that be at these two companies decide there is something there that makes sense, then the rest of us pawns can only go along, try to get something with respect to seniorty that makes sense and ultimatey accept the arbitrators decision. If I end up being a 20 year f/o to a AWA 10 year Capt.,then so be it. I may not agree with it, but I won't show up whining either. I would like to buy the first round for both you guys. Best of luck to all of us.

TWADude;


I wish I could have the opportunity to meet you some day. I would like to buy you a beer. That's pretty much how I feel about it ,too should this merger come to pass.

PHXFLYR

 

[Boeingman]

The issue no one has brought up, and I think it is like the white elephant in the room no one wnats to talk about is contract/work rule issues. It is going to be interesting which contract the surviving entity will be working under.

No doubt in my mind mangement will push to mold AWA under what is left of the U contract. Could this be one reason why the name is planned to stay as USAir?

Think about it.

 

[TWA Dude]

Sorry TWAdude but I'm gonna have to call you on that one. While I absolutely disagree with a lot of the APA's actions during the merger, it was your own MEC and your own union that ensured you were denied a "fair process."

Are you for real? Go ahead and "call me" on it! The Green Book basically says anybody AA buys gets integrated the way the APA says it does. Our CBA said Allegheny-Mohawk. AA told us our contract had to change: do it on your own or we'll have the judge do it for you. The judge said he couldn't change just part of a CBA so his only option would be to abrogate the whole thing. Our MEC changed our contract under duress and you have the nerve to blame the victim?

All APA did was put forth a proposal, only to have your own Bob Pastore refuse to vote on it, and walk out of a meeting...

I still can't get a satisfactory answer to that whole debacle so suffice it to say there was a lack of effective communication between all involved parties.

Then APA put forth a second proposal, which is the current one, and it was passed without ALPA even batting an eyelid.

DUH! Why do you think we're suing ALPA?

SO I guess the argument can be made that... APA put forth a proposal that was deemed "UNFAIR" by the majority of the TWA membership...

What in the sam hill are you talking about? The APA imposed Supp CC on TWA without our agreement because none was required. Who are you to judge that as fair?

...and then your own MEC and union just stood by and refused to fight for anything better

Dude, what color is the sky in your world? Exactly what constitutes "fighting" in your book beyond going to court? Our MEC had ZERO leverage and ALPA National sold us out. Poor us, I know, and to the victors go the spoils, but that just isn't enough for the likes of you.

Sounds like a lawsuit against ALPA would actually hold water.

It's in the discovery phase right now. Depositions begin this summer. Just peruse C&R for the latest.

 

[YellowLab]

I don't have a dog in this fight but I have a couple of questions that stem back from the United/USAir "merger".

I seem to remember the ALPA bylaws being a DOH integration. I seem to remember that being said alot while I was at United during the USAir/United talks. I also remember the word fences being thrown around quite a bit. Prior to 9/11 I already new that I would be furloughed if the merger went through.

Won't the AWA/U merger be a DOH integration with fences, straight from the ALPA bylaws being that both carriers are ALPA?

Can someone make this clear for me?

As far as TWA/AA goes shouldn't you guys let it go and move forward with your lives? It's the same as some of these Emery guys still thinking there will be another Emery one day, or me thinking that United is going to all of the sudden be a mega carrier again. The past is the past and we all got screwed. Unfortunately we are all too dumb to leave the industry.

 

[Cactus73]

I don't have a dog in this fight but I have a couple of questions that stem back from the United/USAir "merger".

I seem to remember the ALPA bylaws being a DOH integration. I seem to remember that being said alot while I was at United during the USAir/United talks. I also remember the word fences being thrown around quite a bit. Prior to 9/11 I already new that I would be furloughed if the merger went through.

Won't the AWA/U merger be a DOH integration with fences, straight from the ALPA bylaws being that both carriers are ALPA?

Can someone make this clear for me?

As far as TWA/AA goes shouldn't you guys let it go and move forward with your lives? It's the same as some of these Emery guys still thinking there will be another Emery one day, or me thinking that United is going to all of the sudden be a mega carrier again. The past is the past and we all got screwed. Unfortunately we are all too dumb to leave the industry.

YellowLab,

ALPA merger policy is NOT doh. It is amazing how this is getting thrown around by supposed experts such as Michael Boyd and being reported by most media outlets.

The AFA is DOH, ALPA is NOT.

There are a set of criteria that consider such factors as career expectations, avoiding windfalls, etc...

It also keeps the integration a separate process that eventually ends in binding arbitration if the two lists cannot be merged within a certain time frame.

If I get time, I'll post some if it later.

I think the biggest misconception is that the AWA guys are automatically screwed because of the seniority of the USAir guys.

 

[xanderman]

I don't have a dog in this fight but I have a couple of questions that stem back from the United/USAir "merger".

I seem to remember the ALPA bylaws being a DOH integration. I seem to remember that being said alot while I was at United during the USAir/United talks. I also remember the word fences being thrown around quite a bit. Prior to 9/11 I already new that I would be furloughed if the merger went through.

Won't the AWA/U merger be a DOH integration with fences, straight from the ALPA bylaws being that both carriers are ALPA?

Can someone make this clear for me?

As far as TWA/AA goes shouldn't you guys let it go and move forward with your lives? It's the same as some of these Emery guys still thinking there will be another Emery one day, or me thinking that United is going to all of the sudden be a mega carrier again. The past is the past and we all got screwed. Unfortunately we are all too dumb to leave the industry.

I believe someone has already pointed out that ALPA no longer states DOH in the integration policy... Period. Could we all maybe spread the word on that one so we can move on...

Regardless it will end up in the arbitrators hands anyhow.

 

[Cactus73]

This is from Section 45 of the ALPA merger policy.


5. The merger representatives shall carefully weigh all the equities inherent in their merger situation. In joint session, the merger representatives should attempt to match equities to various methods of integration until a fair and equitable agreement is reached, keeping in mind the following goals, in no particular order:
a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.
6. The merger representatives shall report to the President, upon request, on their progress once negotiations begin. If, at any time after receiving the first report, in the opinion of the President, satisfactory progress is not being made, he may unilaterally intervene and invoke arbitration.

 

[sonny320]

FYI: Whatever it's worth...the amount of UsAirways pilots to retire in the next 10 years (2015) is about 2700, yes... two-thousand and seven-hundred!!!! More than half of the active pilots.

The annual average number of retirements between 2005-2010 is about 215/year. Between 2010-2015 it increases to about 300/year. This again are pilots reaching the age 60 (hopefully the age won't change). This doesn't count the number of early retirements, resignations, medicals etc. So the number will probably be much higher.

Maybe after sharing this information it will, hopefully, lessen the blow of pilot integration and career expectations.

Wishing good luck to everyone.

 

[TWA Dude]

As far as TWA/AA goes shouldn't you guys let it go and move forward with your lives?

Anger and bitterness can be let go. Despite what you might think from reading my posts I harbor no anger or bitterness about the integration but I do certainly get riled up by revisionist historians. The lessons of TWA/AA, however, cannot be let go because all past mergers are scrutinized during new mergers. It's important to try to avoid past mistakes. That's why it gets brought up here again and again: because it has to.

 

[MickeySlapnutz]

Are you for real? Go ahead and "call me" on it! The Green Book basically says anybody AA buys gets integrated the way the APA says it does. Our CBA said Allegheny-Mohawk. AA told us our contract had to change: do it on your own or we'll have the judge do it for you. The judge said he couldn't change just part of a CBA so his only option would be to abrogate the whole thing. Our MEC changed our contract under duress and you have the nerve to blame the victim?I still can't get a satisfactory answer to that whole debacle so suffice it to say there was a lack of effective communication between all involved parties.DUH! Why do you think we're suing ALPA?What in the sam hill are you talking about? The APA imposed Supp CC on TWA without our agreement because none was required. Who are you to judge that as fair?Dude, what color is the sky in your world? Exactly what constitutes "fighting" in your book beyond going to court? Our MEC had ZERO leverage and ALPA National sold us out. Poor us, I know, and to the victors go the spoils, but that just isn't enough for the likes of you.It's in the discovery phase right now. Depositions begin this summer. Just peruse C&R for the latest.

1:The TWA MEC changed the contract under duress
2:Still can't get a satisfactory answer to the debacle
3:A lack of effective communication
4:We a suing ALPA
5:Our MEC had ZERO leverage
6:ALPA National sold us out
7:That just isn't enough for the likes of you
8:Depositions begin this summer
9:The strawberries...The strawberries.....!!!


He only want's a fair process. It looks to me as if there is no process on earth that would satsify.

 

[TWA Dude]

He only want's a fair process. It looks to me as if there is no process on earth that would satsify.

I realize that reading comprehension isn't one of your stronger suits so I'll type real big for you. (How many times must I repeat myself for the likes of you to get it?) ALPA MERGER POLICY IS A FAIR PROCESS: IF THE SIDES CAN'T COME TO AN AGREEMENT IT ENDS UP IN BINDING ARBITRATION.

 

[YellowLab]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the education, it's been awhile since I've had the ummmm..... privelage of being an ALPA member. I truly hope everyone comes out ok but somebody is gonna get screwed and it's a shame. Best of luck to all of you and thanks for the education.

 

[Boeing747Driver]

FYI: Whatever it's worth...the amount of UsAirways pilots to retire in the next 10 years (2015) is about 2700, yes... two-thousand and seven-hundred!!!! More than half of the active pilots.

They only have 3000 active pilots and 1500 furloughed.