AWA/ US Airways pilot seniority integration

[Fly-n-hi]

For those of you who think we should immediately let some arbitrator decide our fates I think that you are a bit crazy. I personally would like to decide my own fate (or at least try to) before I let some arbitrator who couldn't care less about my career decide it for me. I realize we will probably end up in arbitration anyways...I understand that...but I still think we should try to let our people figure it out first.

I also realize that this will be difficult task when the AAA guys show up to the table and make rediculous and outrageous claims about DOH, including furloughs, and our Hawaii flying.

I believe that relative integration of the two active lists and recalling the AAA furloughs at the bottom of the list with fences and domicile protection is absolutely the fairest way to go.

Why?

With this mode of integration the career expectations of all the pilots are changed very little. All the active pilots will hold their relative positions and equipment while the furloughs will be recalled at the bottom of the list (being recalled at the bottom of the list is their current career expectation). The fences would benifit the furloughs the most by allowing them to be recalled in the domiciles from which they came while protecting my seniority in the long run.

In reality I would say that this merger significantly improves the career expectations of all AAA employees while it changes very little for the AWA employees...but this is a seperate arguement.

I've heard AAA furloughs make the claim that "with all the AAA retirements I would probably have been recalled and would have moved up the seniority list faster than my AWA counterparts. Therefore, my career expectations are higher blah, blah.."

Ok, so your crystal ball says that you were going to be recalled and everything was going to be peachy. Well, my crystal ball says that AAA was going to disappear and you were never going to get recalled. So, since neither of our crystal balls really tell us anything of any use we will just have to go by what we see today...and today I'm active and you are furloughed.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm all for you being recalled...just not at my expense. I'm not willing to trade my seniority for yours.

For those of you who buy into the garbage that we needed US Airways to survive you are wrong. Here are two reasons why Doug Parker says that we did. 1. He was trying to secure capital and giving investors an "either/or dilemma" gives them a sense of urgency to invest and 2. He doesn't want the aquisition of AAA to give the AWA union groups big heads. In other words he didn't want the AWA work groups to show up to the table and use the AWA aqusition of AAA as a negotiating tool. Parker thinks that if we are all under the impression that we need each other to survive then we will be more likely to cooperate with each other.

Maybe at some point we would have had to merge with someone...but we certainly didn't need US Airways. In fact, anyone who I've spoken with who knows anything about corporate finances thinks this whole merger is absolutey insane.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Lets not forget ICAO is going to 65 and that the Senate voted to change as well.
What about stagnation?

 

[MCDU]

Do you think United pilots on furlough would except a staple job in event of a merger with Continental behind all their new hires. I do not think so. Same as with any other pilot group.
US Airways, Delta, Northwest pilots should also not accept their furloughed alpa pilots to be stapled behind new hires.

Marty

 

[Boeingman]

Do you think United pilots on furlough would except a staple job in event of a merger with Continental behind all their new hires. I do not think so. Same as with any other pilot group.
US Airways, Delta, Northwest pilots should also not accept their furloughed alpa pilots to be stapled behind new hires.

Marty

Precedent has already been set in prior mergers with pilots who were on long time furlough. Case in point was Pan Am and National. PAA pilots who were on furlough for many years were placed behind relatively new National pilots. Same example set in the TI/CAL merger.

Arbitrators view career expectations and rely heavily on precedent. In this and other cases pilots currently employed on a given date during an integration were viewed to have better career expectations.

 

[Cactus73]

As far as I understand it anyone employed at MDA at the time of the merger (sept29) is considered an active US Airways pilot for integration purposes. That is going to be interesting when it comes time to merge the lists. Guess we will see.

Not true!

This is one of the disagreements between the two merger committee's and will likely be an arbitration issue. All seniority lists show MDA pilots as furloughed. What the certified lists show is up for debate. The two lists will not be certified until the end of January, so there has been no final agreement on this.

AWA tried and failed to fly Hawaii routes many years ago. It is only because of the additonal east coast feed and UAIR frequent flyers that the route can now be tried again.

AWA was not on the FAA's five month ETOPS program. Our ETOPS certification took about 18 months on the 757. This was a long planned route and had nothing to do with the merger. I agree that the merger makes the routes even better than us, but we were going regardless.

AWA failed in 1991 due to old 747's, empty onward flights to Nagoya Japan, and the gulf war. Hawaii has also transformed itself from a once in a lifetime destination for American's to a normal getaway much like Florida or Arizona.

I'm in the East. The "stapled" thing is the strong opinion of the frequent West posters here that furloughed pilots will (or should) be stapled. They believe it's their birthright to have a 1600 pilot furlough cushion below them plus a head start on the wild run up the seniority list that has mostly uEast retirements in front of them. Sad, the selfish attitudes displayed here.

The only staple advocated is from the AAA merger committee. They want DOH and that is a staple.

Please post where I said it's my birthright to have 1600 pilot furlough cushion below me.

Am I selfish because I don't want to trade my ACTIVE position to bring you back from furlough?

PHX, I more or less put the stapling comment in my first post to appease your camp; let's face it, though, it's what you guys would like concerning the junior US Air guys (who are currently furloughed although many of us are serving the company as captains in CRJ's....an unprecedented situation in ALPA history, I believe.)

Unprecedented? I don't think so. Every regional fee for departure ALPA Captain at companies such as MESA, Expressjet, Air Wisconsin, are flying our passengers and serving as the company as captains. The flowback situation at Expressjet after 9/11 is a good example. They were clearly furloughed from CAL and put on the XJT seniority list flying CAL customers. They were paid by XJT and were considered XJT pilots even though they displaced over 500 pilots.


Arbitration here we come!

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Do you think United pilots on furlough would except a staple job in event of a merger with Continental behind all their new hires. I do not think so. Same as with any other pilot group.
US Airways, Delta, Northwest pilots should also not accept their furloughed alpa pilots to be stapled behind new hires.

Marty

Who cares what United, Delta, or xyz airlines' furloufgs expect? They are not in this fight. Besides, your comment is pure speculation. You have no idea what another airlines' pilot group would expect. Not to mention its completely pompous.

To say that a furlough should take away seniority from an active pilot is mind blowing.

So your arguement is "well, I am pretty sure that United and Delta pilots would not accept a staple of their furloughs so we shouldn't either". This sounds like a joke. My arguement completely desroys yours (see previous post).

If my bankrupt airline was being aquired by a non bankrupt airline and I was furloughed I would absolutely expect to be stapled. I wouldn't like it but that is what I would expect.

 

[Andy]

Upon reading this thread, I hope & pray that United NEVER EVER merges with another carrier.

Good luck to all effected. One thing's guaranteed; both sides will think that they've been screwed and that the other side got a great deal.

 

[MCDU]

Well, I have nothing to do with this merger, but I would think that a USAir pilot with a hire date in 1989 with almost 15yrs at US Airways would not be put behind some America West pilot hired in the last few years. America West will have their fences.
They could just fence of the whole East with 200 plus airframes for 25 years and then you could staple thge AAA pilots.
That is just me looking from the outside.


Marty

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Just a point of clarification:

IF the furloughed pilots were integrated (rather than stapled) into the combined seniority list...

It is my understanding that those currently furloughed would REMAIN on furlough-status regardless of where their new seniority falls.

Once there was a need for recall, and that pilot accepted a recall, he would then accept his position on the seniority list (and bound by applicable fences) for bidding purposes.

Right?

So an active AWA pilot would not be sacrificed (furloughed) in order to bring back a furloughed pilot.

Or am I out in left field?

 

[iflyhigh]

Everyone should be looking at this from a financial position.

If their is a staple of USAir above all AWA pilots, you better expect lower wages. Their is no way management is going to allow the training department to be tied up for two to three years with upgrades, bumps and rebumps. Believe guys would be rebidding for up to a year on equipment. Ask UAL guys how the bids went after 9/11. It took a year or so to finish all the training.

Now if you think that training does not come at a cost you are mistaken. Management would view this as a significant cost and I would imagine look to cut costs in the contract somewhere else, whether it be wages or retirement or workrules.

Parker, the CEO, stated no large cash outlays. I really don't think he is going to allow 10 to 20 year fences to exist, like NWA did, because this is cost prohibitive. Parker wants to realize his syngery costs as soon as possible.

Secondly, my understanding is when the arbitrator looks at the seniority intergration he looks at who currently on the list. Not who is on furlough. Guys were even told at UAL, that if a merger took place while pilots were still on furlough, chances are they would not have a job. Not to say things can't be worked out, but its tough. So why any pilot from any airline, whether it be DAL, AMR, UAL or any other one, would think they are entitled to a job because they are on furlough is beside me. You are not on property, management does not care. They just soon hire new people for cheaper wages.

Lastly, it is also my understanding that USAir does have a portion of their list of pilots in their 40's, that are active. Thus even in a reality seniority issue they would make captain. Next, most guys that were hired at USAir in the 89 or so era, have spent more time on furlough from USAir then they have actively spent flying. Why a guy who spent 8 years on furlough from USAir, go back and get refurloughed would ever want to go back to the company is beyond me. Furlough me once shame on you, furlough me twice shame on me.

The final word, I got news for everyone. Nobody really knows if this merger is really going to be successful or not. NObody really knows if the company will still exist in 20 years or not. With the way the work groups are fighting currently,both sides, I can't imagine having mixed crews in the cockpit. I can only say I am sure if will be interesting, no matter how this intergration happens. Once the merger lists come out, I guarantee not every pilot is going to be happy and this disagreement will carry over into the cockpit. We are humans and are emotions run.

I say good luck to everyone. I hope for the best, and keep all options open.