Awa Merger

[Crzipilot]

So tell me why I had 2 FURLOUGHED US Air guys in my class at AWA claiming they came straight from MDA? Was MDA planned before things went south at U? Was this a strategic move planned long ago to phase out your dependence on regional airlines? I guess I'm not so much trying to argue as much as I am trying to understand this logic. To me it does not matter who is eligible for this or that in your MEC/LEC. And again at CAL/COex we initially had 1 MEC that included both CAL and COex pilots (Because we were a wholly owned "division" of Continental Airlines). That did not change the fact that the FURLOUGHED CAL pilots at COex were still FURLOUGHED. As far as being shown as "active" it depends on whose list we are talking about here. So I suppose my real question in all of this nonsense is this: Do you have a published list for MDA that is SEPERATE from U?
Andy

Well Andy, that's the interesting point. As there was supposed to be a list coming out showing that, but it seems it's been delayed. Now I understand that CAL/COex were managed by 1 MEC, BUT the difference here, isn't COex a seperate airline in the sense it has a seperate certificate? Did the COex name operate under the CAL certificate? Probably not. That's the rub here. MDA was supposed to be a SEPERATE airline, it never came to fruitation, and the FEDS were the ones starting to push for everything be rolled into one, and that action was starting at the beginning of the year. Remember ALPA isn't really sure what to do with this, as they have gone into hiding. There were shouts that your furloughed, and that's it......now they have become silient. Seems some lawyers are getting involved in the mess.....I'm not there so I don't have all the details, but that's what is floating around. IF MDA had gotten it's own certificate, and become a seperate airline, operated under the GROUP name with a seperate DO, seperate DIR. Trng, and such. It doesn't exist, those which occupy those positions are actually the mainline positions. I believe, I could be wrong, but everywhere I have looked, it doesn't list anyone which occupy such positions.
So what airline do they work for??

 

[JetMonkey]

Well Andy, that's the interesting point. As there was supposed to be a list coming out showing that, but it seems it's been delayed. Now I understand that CAL/COex were managed by 1 MEC, BUT the difference here, isn't COex a seperate airline in the sense it has a seperate certificate? Did the COex name operate under the CAL certificate? Probably not. That's the rub here. MDA was supposed to be a SEPERATE airline, it never came to fruitation, and the FEDS were the ones starting to push for everything be rolled into one, and that action was starting at the beginning of the year. Remember ALPA isn't really sure what to do with this, as they have gone into hiding. There were shouts that your furloughed, and that's it......now they have become silient. Seems some lawyers are getting involved in the mess.....I'm not there so I don't have all the details, but that's what is floating around. IF MDA had gotten it's own certificate, and become a seperate airline, operated under the GROUP name with a seperate DO, seperate DIR. Trng, and such. It doesn't exist, those which occupy those positions are actually the mainline positions. I believe, I could be wrong, but everywhere I have looked, it doesn't list anyone which occupy such positions.
So what airline do they work for??

It has to have an operating certificate before it can take on the name "Airline" does it not? If it was under mainline it would probably be named some funky low-cost affiliate like "Metro Jet" was, you don't see Song and Ted as different airlines do you? no, they're part of Delta and United. So why would Mid-Atlantic AIRLINES be included in that? They had to have filed for a seperate certificate with the DOT.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

WhiskeyDriver......How long have you been at AWA?

Irrelevant!!!

WD.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

WD

I had just over 600 pilots junior to me at US Airways, so, no, being at the bottom of the list was never a familiar place for me.

Why does that matter again?

According to you and others every furloughed USAir pilot's expectations were ZERO, so let's not even discuss it.

As always, Happy Win...d...fa....

Oh yeah. Sorry. I forgot you don't like to be reminded about how good things are going to be for you when the U retirements kick in and turbo-boost your seniority.

How about: Happy Father's Day!

Happy Father's day to you as well if it applies!!!

I don't think we will see these windfalls you claim but I do see relative intagration happening!! Arguing amongst our selves is pointless it will have no bearing on the out come!!!

WD.

 

[TWA Dude]

Read my post more carefully. I specifically did not say thank the AWA pilots because I realize that we have no say in this aquisition. I said thank AWA (actually, I am a share holder). But the truth is if this prolongs the careers of USA pilots then they better be thankful down the road.

I disagree that USA pilots should thank AWA. When given a gift one should be thankful but this isn't a gift. It's a business decision that may happen to benefit many. If they choose to thank somebody that's their prerogative but it's sanctimonious to tell them to thank anybody.

I just want them to realize that without this deal they are toast. The only ones that say otherwise are the USA pilots.

Once again I disagree. I can't predict the future so what qualifies you to do so? Sure, USAir is in financial straights, but until the operation actually shuts down the possibility exists that they'll stay in business.

P.S. You're talking to the son of a TWA pilot...so I know how it is.

I'm sure you've heard a lot but I'm not so sure you understand what you've heard.

 

[miles otoole]

Irrelevant!!!

WD.

Irrelevant because you are new. If you had been there for 15 years, you would certainly tell us.

 

[Crzipilot]

It has to have an operating certificate before it can take on the name "Airline" does it not? If it was under mainline it would probably be named some funky low-cost affiliate like "Metro Jet" was, you don't see Song and Ted as different airlines do you? no, they're part of Delta and United. So why would Mid-Atlantic AIRLINES be included in that? They had to have filed for a seperate certificate with the DOT.

Ok..this I don't understand. As far as MDA goes, they may have started the filing process, but filing an application doesn't mean squat. They don't have a seperate certificate nor are they going to have one. The FEDS have had hurtburn over the whole thing. Oh Wait you mean the FEDS wouldn't do anything outside the lines...ok.....
Anyways don't have the time nor desire to look up DOT filings, but yes, MDA is basically the same as Song or TED, the way it is run now. Except it's a cluster F*** and ALPA has allowed it to go on...and now both sides are trying to sweep it under the rug......

On another note....the MDA folks started paying dues from day 1 of training. I on the other hand at a j4j position was listed as an apprentice by ALPA for 1 yr.......why the difference???? Because ALPA viewed the MDA pilots as being recalled to active status on the AAA certificate

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Quote from TWA Dude: "I'm sure you've heard a lot but I'm not so sure you understand what you've heard."

My father was there for 39 years and my Grandfather was there for 38 years, both as pilots. Trust me, I probably know more about and understand the events at TWA than you did. Still wanna argue about this?

That has nothing to do with the AWA aquisition of US Airways so it's pointless to drabble on about it.

So you don't think that the USA pilots should be thankful? Fine...don't be thankful to AWA...but you better be thankful. Heck, you should be thankful that you have a job. I know I am! There...case closed.

And so you all know my source for US Airway's near certain demise is US Airways pilots that I have spoken to, not USA Today. They are certainly a more credible, or at least more believable source than you (or anyone on flightinfo.com) are. Only recently have they been singing a different tune...now that integration is likely. GE Capital has some interesting things to say about this as well.

You are right in that I don't have a crystal ball and I cannot see the future. What I can tell you for sure is this: At this moment AWA is in a much better position than US Airways. You cannot argue with this. All you can say is "AWA is not in the greatest shape right now, either." No, but we are in much better shape than US Airways...hands down. Would we be in 10 years? 15 years? I don't know, I don't care. I do know that we are not going to wait that long to integrate.

Nobody is trying to hose the US Airways pilots. So I'll say it again: Relative integration of the two Active lists with the furloughee's being recalled as needed to the bottom of that list. Then, after all the furloughs have returned, we will hire off the street. I don't have a problem with fences and I think that a fence right down the Mississippi River is not a bad idea.

Now, obviously, there will be other issues such as furloughs being recalled to PHX or LAS instead of CLT or PHL, but we will work those out.

P.S. I have not spoken to one AWA pilot who wishes to bid to the East Coast. I'm sure there are a few out there but I have not spoken to any of them. I have spoken to a handful of US Airways pilots on overnights and quite a few of them were interested in bidding out to PHX. Point: It seems to me that there are more US Airways pilots who wish to cross the fence than AWA pilots. Its things like this that compel me to be vocal.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Ill be back in 4 days...peace out.

 

[PHXFLYR]

[

PHXFLYER.....uhmmmm......I feelt he pain you flew 10 years at a WO'd, As to you saying *ELL no to the CEL list, well why?? the CEL list is there, it was promised these guys could flow up, and they should still be able to after the merger. What would you have against these guys flowing up??? No where have I mentioned them being integrated or slotted or DOH, just that the program needs to be kept in place. Alot of those guys are in the mid 20's and in 10 years may still be there, and would prob. welcome the fact of being able to flow up to the mainline. Why wouldn't you offer them such a chance? Again the "I got mine" attitude prevails...[/QUOTE]

Re-read my post,friend . That IS NOT what I said. What I DID say and what you failed to understand is that if the CEL pilots at MDA DO NOT have a USAir senority number like the furloughed USAir pilots currently flying at MDA do, they should not expect to be part of the merger discussions. Only the Furloughed USAir pilots at MDA should . As for the CEL list and the flow thru agreement, this is an agreement between the WO's and premerger USAirways. I seriously doubt that you will see this part of the contract remain once the collective bargaining agreement is amended if the merger is approved. I find this quite disappointing on a personal level because I have quite a few friends there who we're my F/O's during my wholly-owned days.

PHXFLYR

 

[Guppiedriver]

WD

As always, Happy Win...d...fa....

Oh yeah. Sorry. I forgot you don't like to be reminded about how good things are going to be for you when the U retirements kick in and turbo-boost your seniority.

How about: Happy Father's Day!

I think everybody here agrees that there will be fences, big fences, probably five years or so. That being said, I want to know how the AWA pilots will benefit from the U retirements over the next five years? It seems to me that each U retirement will result in a U upgrade and a U recall. After the fences are knocked down AWA pilots may benefit, but there aren't going to be a lot of AWA guys willing to sit reserve in PHL, PIT, or CLT for an upgrade.

 

[Crzipilot]

PHX Flyer....

Dunno, I kinda think the J4J agreement is going to stay in place wich will keep the CEL in place. See if the j4j agreement goes away..well then your pulling the rug out from under the furloughees twice......Staple them to the bottom and throw them out of their jobs?

 

[PHXFLYR]

PHX Flyer....

Dunno, I kinda think the J4J agreement is going to stay in place wich will keep the CEL in place. See if the j4j agreement goes away..well then your pulling the rug out from under the furloughees twice......Staple them to the bottom and throw them out of their jobs?

First, why do you keep thinking you are going to get stapled to the bottom of any combined list. You DO have a USAir Senority number, do you not? If you do,then you will get slotted in once binding arbitration is complete.... and trust me,if the exchanges on this web board are any indication, this thing WILL land up in binding arbitration,which I think is pretty sad. But then again, my Delta Ticket agent wife always told me that "you pilots aren't the sharpest knives in the draw,you know" I am beginning to think she may be on to something!!

As for your current position at PSA, you or maybe it was BeCareful mentioned that there are 100 of you furloughees over there flying under J4J. If that's the case, and J$J agreement is rescinded I think it would be hard to replace all you guys and gals at once.

As for the rest of the stuff, I "dunno" either. I think from a business sense,this merger is pretty exciting and offers us opportunities neither employee group would have had as individual stand-alone companies,specifically ,the opportunity to be the first low fare full service airline nationwide with extensive European service Additionally it will allow both companies to get out from under Southwest's shadow and take the fight to them on our terms. And then I read the exchanges on this web board between fellow aviators, or get a DOH lecture from one of your 73 Capts, jumpseating to work a few weeks ago,and then I'm not so sure . But one thing's for certain. It WILL be up to the combined pilot group to make this thing suceesful because if we don't ,no one else will.





PHXFLYR

 

[BeCareful!]

First, why do you keep thinking you are going to get stapled to the bottom of any combined list. You DO have a USAir Senority number, do you not? If you do,then you will get slotted in once binding arbitration is complete....
PHXFLYR

Wow, see, PHXFLYR? You can be a nice guy!

Last week you said I would be stabled, and now you proclaim that I "will get slotted in once binding arbitration is complete...."

That's mighty nice of you, but, why the drastic change of heart?

Just wondering.....

 

[Crzipilot]

PHX,

I don't think i'm going to get stapled. I agree it's going to goto arbritration, though from looking at the sentiment of the mainline MEC...I dunno, they may just rollover and give away the house to look good to managment. In fact they may offer to pay the AWA Merger committees expenses since AWA management is playing with that notion.

I agree with the fact it's going to take the collective group working together to bring this to something successful. Unfortunately or hopefully it won't turn into a east/west thing like US has the north/south.

As for the network, and competing with SWA....the sad thing is...with the combination, I believe it's still smaller than what US was pre 9/11.....such is life.

Either way, like you said, it's going to arbitration and everyone will be somewhat happy, and somewhat pissed. In the end there could be a lot of money saved...LOL

J4J issue, ya they couldn't replace us overnight, but some of the PSA pilots would love for the program to go away, as they would then have arguement for us to goto PSA DOH and basically washed back to f/o, etc......but that's another story....

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

PHX,


As for the network, and competing with SWA....the sad thing is...with the combination, I believe it's still smaller than what US was pre 9/11.....such is life.

U had around 420 A/C just prior to 9/11..........sad that after combining with AWA they still will not be anywhere close to that number.....................unless you want to start counting RJ's!

I sure am glad that my U senority number is only serving as a backup option in case I get furloughed from my current seat.

Good luck to you folks in the merger (AWA and USAir) I hope it works out so both sides are ticked off!! (That means it was a fair deal! )

 

[PHXFLYR]

Wow, see, PHXFLYR? You can be a nice guy!

Last week you said I would be stabled, and now you proclaim that I "will get slotted in once binding arbitration is complete...."

That's mighty nice of you, but, why the drastic change of heart?

Just wondering.....

Do you mind showing me where in any of my posts that I said you guys should get stapled ? Can't find it...can you? Didn't think so...because I never posted anything like that and never will because I didn't support in when we were in discussions with ATA nor do I support it now. Not only that I have made that fact known to our MEC. Can you say you did the same regarding DOH? And I have a lot more to lose than you, including the very real possibility due to my age and a stagnent senority list of never seeing a Capt seat . So do me a favor,unless you have a severe comprehension problem while reading,quit putting words in my mouth . It's getting pretty old.


As for the change of heart, it really isn't a change of heart. I always thought from a business standpoint, this merger has some significant long term potential . But most of the pilots on this web board are just too stupid to realize it. They much rather get their rocks of bashing each other and watching out for their own special interests rather than focus on the bigger picture,which is securing our future. Let's face it, if this thing comes to fruition, it's going to be up to ALL OF US regardless of where we came from ,furloughed or active to make this thing work. Because like I said in a previous post a few minuetes ago , it's gonna be up to us to make this thing a success, because no one else will. And if the B$ I see on this webboard from BOTH pilot groups is any indication of what the future has in store, then all I got to say is we are in for a really nasty ride. Is this what we envisioned for a career? Think about it!


PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

PHX,

I don't think i'm going to get stapled. I agree it's going to goto arbritration, though from looking at the sentiment of the mainline MEC...I dunno, they may just rollover and give away the house to look good to managment. In fact they may offer to pay the AWA Merger committees expenses since AWA management is playing with that notion.

I agree with the fact it's going to take the collective group working together to bring this to something successful. Unfortunately or hopefully it won't turn into a east/west thing like US has the north/south.

As for the network, and competing with SWA....the sad thing is...with the combination, I believe it's still smaller than what US was pre 9/11.....such is life.




Either way, like you said, it's going to arbitration and everyone will be somewhat happy, and somewhat pissed. In the end there could be a lot of money saved...LOL

J4J issue, ya they couldn't replace us overnight, but some of the PSA pilots would love for the program to go away, as they would then have arguement for us to goto PSA DOH and basically washed back to f/o, etc......but that's another story....

And I guess a controversial one at that. Gotta tip my hat to one of my old DHC8 F/Os from my WO days. He worked his way up the list,checking out as Capt shortly after I left. He got hired at AAA about a year and a half after I got hired here and unfourtunatley was amongst the first to get furloughed. Rather than go to MDA or do a J4J gig ,what does he do? He reapplies at our old WO as a new hire and starts completly over. Said he didn't think J4j was the right thing to do for him and that as long as he could keep his AAA senority number and continue flying he would be fine. I offered to walk a resume in for him here at AWA ,but he wanted to stay with "the USAir brand" (his words,not mine) Always thought that guy was a class act when I worked with him. This proved it beyond the shadow of a doubt. True story.


PHXFLYR

 

[Crzipilot]

I'm sure he is. I too stayed away from the j4j deal for some time, but alas I finally succombed to it. Long sad story as to why, but ya...lots of controversy to the j4j deal....

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Irrelevant because you are new. If you had been there for 15 years, you would certainly tell us.

No because it is simply IRRELEVANT nothing more!! If you want to focus on something focus on AWA hiring focus on AAA be the premire furlough carrier and in big digits both in time on and number of!!! AWA furloughed a small number after 9/11 and they were back to work ASAP.

Miles,I am not going to get into this pissing match with you over this if you are involved you will know the same outcome as I.

WD.

 

[PHXFLYR]

I'm sure he is. I too stayed away from the j4j deal for some time, but alas I finally succombed to it. Long sad story as to why, but ya...lots of controversy to the j4j deal....

Just curious..why did you choose a J4J slot over MDA?


PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

No because it is simply IRRELEVANT nothing more!! If you want to focus on something focus on AWA hiring focus on AAA be the premire furlough carrier and in big digits both in time on and number of!!! AWA furloughed a small number after 9/11 and they were back to work ASAP.

Miles,I am not going to get into this pissing match with you over this if you are involved you will know the same outcome as I.

WD.

PHXFLYR

 

[Wiskey Driver]

.....

 

[BeCareful!]

Do you mind showing me where in any of my posts that I said you guys should get stapled ? Can't find it...can you?

Wow, sorry PHX....I must have grouped you in with several other AWA posters here who have consistantly and emphatically posted that all U furloughees had zero for expectations and were simply to be stapled. It's my fault; I don't take this Internet stuff nearly as serious as some, and so I make errors from time to time.

Your group, as represented on this website, is a fairly offensive bunch. You and one other (TWADude) seem more reasonable.

OK, so, while we are at it: why do you think your stance on the stapler differs so from that of WD and many of the other AWA posters here?

 

[BeCareful!]

Do what you feel you need to do brutha!!!!

WD.

Drinkin' already, WD? It's only 0905 EDT!

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Drinkin' already, WD? It's only 0905 EDT!

How in the H did you come to that conclusion???? Yeah but it's coffee!!! To early for you and this BS!!!!

WD.

 

[BeCareful!]

Dude, chill! Your avtar or whatever it is was swinging his bottle around!

You seem to have lost any sense of humor you may have had at one time. Except for your enviable position career-wise, I feel sorry for you.


Tell you what, I'll stay off the MB today. Maybe that will make it all OK for you. You can have the sandbox all to yourself. Happy?

 

[Crzipilot]

Just curious..why did you choose a J4J slot over MDA?


PHXFLYR

truthfully that was many beers ago, and finding it hard to remember why. Part of it was bases. I commute from the south, PSA had the most southern base. part of it was the late notices on a number of payments came at the time they were issueing the final call for PSA. And then of course seniority. I could have gotten a position at either place, but It seemed a capt. slot would open up sooner at PSA, as it turned out. 2nd week of g/s I was holding capt. there, But at the same time, as I was in g/s the capt list zoomed past my seniority, so in reality I could have held capt there too, just didn't think it would have happened as fast as PSA. Seeing as I'm not qualified to go anywhere else (by their standards, only have 5-6000 hours flying heavy jets worldwide) the PIC time is the last box needed. I was planning on staying in the non-sked world, and have quite a few contacts within it, but after furlough from my last airline in 2003, none of them were hiring, and or couldn't get the interview due to having a seniority number, or not the PIC time, so due to my career progression I was limited as to where I could go.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Dude, chill! Your avtar or whatever it is was swinging his bottle around!

You seem to have lost any sense of humor you may have had at one time. Except for your enviable position career-wise, I feel sorry for you.


Tell you what, I'll stay off the MB today. Maybe that will make it all OK for you. You can have the sandbox all to yourself. Happy?

BC,

It didn't have anything to do with you, I apologize. I have an internal rodent that I have to deal with!!! You are correct about the pirate with the bottle and my sense of humor being depleated this early in the morning, it's just that my tolerance for the BS is at an all time low this morning!! You have a good day bro and be safe out there.

WD.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Wow, sorry PHX....I must have grouped you in with several other AWA posters here who have consistantly and emphatically posted that all U furloughees had zero for expectations and were simply to be stapled. It's my fault; I don't take this Internet stuff nearly as serious as some, and so I make errors from time to time.

Your group, as represented on this website, is a fairly offensive bunch. You and one other (TWADude) seem more reasonable.

OK, so, while we are at it: why do you think your stance on the stapler differs so from that of WD and many of the other AWA posters here?

Maybe because I believe in the ALPA Merger Policy where it says one pilot group shouldn't benefit at the expense of the other. Too bad that AAA 73 Capt that gave me my DOH lecture jumpseating to work a few weeks ago doesn't feel that way. That would be just as bad as us stapeling you guys to the bottom of the combined list,don't you think? That plus the fact that unlike others ,both at your house and mine,I feel that this thing will get setteled by an arbitrator ,which I think is really sad. I mean why we just can't sit down and come to some sort of sensible agreement rather than letting lawyers and a
judge deciding the outcome is beyond me. But I have accepted in my own way that this is the way it will go and will probably cost me a Capt seat,too ,in addition to all the USAir guys and gals who have lost theirs already. But unlike my co-horts here who will continue to "rage on into the night" i will learn to live with it,or ,if I don't like the final outcome, or the "New and Improved USAir" simply resign and move on.

Regarding our guys on this webboard being a fairly offensive bunch, you and crzipilot are right up there with them . I kinda liked 321 Bus driver,though. Kinda your equivlent of our TWADude. I think he got smart,though and bailed
out of the debate.Can't blame him. Nothing will get accomplished by bashing each other here anyway.So I might as well go outand do something productive
like cut the lawn and play catch with my son. See ya in PHL ....ugh that means I'll have to call myself PHLFLYR ?? Disgusting.Where's that resume again


PHXFLYR