Awa Merger

[ironspud]

I find it interesting that none of the usair pilots seem to realize that without this merger they are ALL out of work.

...or who the "Merger-er" and "Merger-ee" is.

 

[TWA Dude]

You can thank AWA later when all the dust has settled.

We need to be careful about making smug comments like that. We fly airplanes and we have nothing to do with the business decisions of our employers, thus no thank-yous should be directed nor accepted here.
If you haven't guessed it I've heard the sanctimonious "you should be thankful to us" bullcrap before and it made my blood boil. Let's please not hear it again!

 

[Crzipilot]

I find it interesting that none of the usair pilots seem to realize that without this merger they are ALL out of work.

Again, the US pilots have been hearing this for ohhhhh about the past 15 years. Your going out of bussines, your time is short, etc etc. The demise of US has been speculated for years. Amazing, it's been going and going. At the same time AWA own leader has stated, that by the end of the year AWA would have a liquidity problem and possible Chp11. And who knows, it may have been talk, it may not of. People must remember the leaders start talking in the press what they want the press and such to believe. If you remember correctly back in 2001 our own esteemed leader said that US would fold up and be gone if UAL merger wasn't approved. Shortly after that it was, US with it's transformation will be a strong stand alone carrier.
Don't expect any thanks with the attitudes being show here. This transaction is a combination. This transaction has been said to be needed by both parties.
there hasn't been any talks from the US side that any AWA pilot should hit the street. The only talk has been pointing the fact that there will be ALOT of retirements on our side with ALOT of movement upwards. US is currently running 200-400 pilots short. Again all the US pilots are saying is, Let US reap the rewards of what WE are bringing into the combination. Basically the retirements of our guys.
There could easily be an integration system wide, with fences between east and west, with a seperate integration in the east / west division. Problem with this??? The pilots themselves. as has been shown (the majority of the problem within this industry) is the "I have mine attitude" As prev. poster said, while we argue who gets which carrot, the regionals are getting the biggest carrot with the 90 seaters. The regionals are more than happy to fly the 90 seaters and continue to get more flying, larger airplanes at rates way below what a 737/ dc9 driver should be paid. Everyone turns around and blames ALPA. Well hate to say it but the pilots themselves are ALPA. So look in the mirror for someone to blame. It is sickening to continue to see the pervasive attitude of I got mine throughout the industry. I've heard guys talk about, "There needs to be something done" a national work stoppage etc etc, but then asked how did you get to the right seat of a jet with 800 hours, it's well I paid $30k for some advanced training at an airline, and then I agreed to fly this jet for $20.00/hr. Well why did you accept that. I need the experience, I'll do what it takes to get to the larger airlines. And i"m upset because now I sit here with 1200 hours, promised to upgrade in 6 months to a year, and this place sucks. The nature of the industy has sickeningly changed, and the entitlement attitudes suck. BUT that's also a nature of what society of where we live in has changed too. The answer to change this is above my pay grade, and it isn't a slam against the regional guys, as if you refused the job, there'd be 20 more behind you that would fly it for half the cost. It's a slam against Everyone. Guess this turned into a rant, but guess I have been flying with too many new F/O's that have exhibited this attitude, and yet don't know the history of the industry.
Anyways the bottom line is, all the US guys have been talking is for this thing to be done within ALPA merger policy. (no windfalls, career expectations relative seniority etc etc) Which hmmmm....would include taking into account all the retirements that are to occur, Why should the bottom 5% AWA pilot gain from this, and get zoomed up the seniority list? a bottom 5% US pilot has been hanging on looking at, in 10 years I'll go up to the top 5%. That's ALOT of movement. Where would the bottom 5% AWA be in 10 years within his seniority list? in the top 5% or somewhere in the middle 50%??? So why don't we look at integrating consistent on where you would be on the seniority list in 5, 10, 15, 20 years? Speculate all you want where US would be in 5-10 years, as well as speculate where AWA would be. YOU DON"T KNOW. and have NOTHING to base your conjectures off of besides quotes from guys that are standing to make millions if this deal goes through.

As for Xanderman, Well MDA is NOT a j4j position. It's a division of mainline. They are shown as active pilots by alpa. They pay AAA dues/assesments/ vote on AAA dealings and can even run for AAA alpa positions. Name one furloughee that is allowed to do that. Ask the FAA if the pilots flying for MDA are AAA pilots or furloughed pilots.

PHXFLYER.....uhmmmm......I feelt he pain you flew 10 years at a WO'd, As to you saying *ELL no to the CEL list, well why?? the CEL list is there, it was promised these guys could flow up, and they should still be able to after the merger. What would you have against these guys flowing up??? No where have I mentioned them being integrated or slotted or DOH, just that the program needs to be kept in place. Alot of those guys are in the mid 20's and in 10 years may still be there, and would prob. welcome the fact of being able to flow up to the mainline. Why wouldn't you offer them such a chance? Again the "I got mine" attitude prevails...

 

[Fly-n-hi]

We need to be careful about making smug comments like that. We fly airplanes and we have nothing to do with the business decisions of our employers, thus no thank-yous should be directed nor accepted here.
If you haven't guessed it I've heard the sanctimonious "you should be thankful to us" bullcrap before and it made my blood boil. Let's please not hear it again!

Read my post more carefully. I specifically did not say thank the AWA pilots because I realize that we have no say in this aquisition. I said thank AWA (actually, I am a share holder). But the truth is if this prolongs the careers of USA pilots then they better be thankful down the road. And really, to be honest, I don't care if they say thanks or not. I just want them to realize that without this deal they are toast. The only ones that say otherwise are the USA pilots.

Funny how a year ago the USA pilots that I personally spoke to were predicting the end of USA within a year or two and now, all of a sudden, they have these high career expextations like Junior FO's being in the top 5% of the seniority list in 10 years.

P.S. You're talking to the son of a TWA pilot...so I know how it is. This is one of the reasons I am involving myself and being vocal.

Quote by crzipilot: "So why don't we look at integrating consistent on where you would be on the seniority list in 5, 10, 15, 20 years? Speculate all you want where US would be in 5-10 years, as well as speculate where AWA would be. YOU DON"T KNOW. and have NOTHING to base your conjectures off of besides quotes from guys that are standing to make millions if this deal goes through."

You just answered your own question. I don't know where you or I will be in 5, 10, or 15 years. That's why I am only concerned with today. That argument is insane (or Crzi).

Actually, I forsee AWA pilots quitting by the boatload for no reason and myself being number 1 on the list in 10 years so let's use your 10 or 15 year logic based on that. I also belive that we AWA will by 200 new airplanes in which case I will become much more senior so let's integrate based on that.

You might say that "I will move up the ranks because of retirements and attrition" True, you might. But you don't know what USA's fleet plans will be in 10 or 15 years. If 400 guys retire but yo also get rid of 40 airplanes that won't help you much, will it? (BTW...this senario is what we have been hearing)

Bottom line is you don't know about the future, you only know right now.

 

[321 busdriver]

Hard to take you seriously Joey. With your vast amount of experience, you may want to consider posting on the kiddie board.

I find it interesting that none of the usair pilots seem to realize that without this merger they are ALL out of work.

 

[xanderman]

As for Xanderman, Well MDA is NOT a j4j position. It's a division of mainline. They are shown as active pilots by alpa. They pay AAA dues/assesments/ vote on AAA dealings and can even run for AAA alpa positions. Name one furloughee that is allowed to do that. Ask the FAA if the pilots flying for MDA are AAA pilots or furloughed pilots.

So tell me why I had 2 FURLOUGHED US Air guys in my class at AWA claiming they came straight from MDA? Was MDA planned before things went south at U? Was this a strategic move planned long ago to phase out your dependence on regional airlines? I guess I'm not so much trying to argue as much as I am trying to understand this logic. To me it does not matter who is eligible for this or that in your MEC/LEC. And again at CAL/COex we initially had 1 MEC that included both CAL and COex pilots (Because we were a wholly owned "division" of Continental Airlines). That did not change the fact that the FURLOUGHED CAL pilots at COex were still FURLOUGHED. As far as being shown as "active" it depends on whose list we are talking about here. So I suppose my real question in all of this nonsense is this: Do you have a published list for MDA that is SEPERATE from U?
Andy

 

[BeCareful!]

Sir, you should know that without AWA those furloughs, along with the active USA pilots, would most likely have lost their jobs. You should look at it this way: AWA making this move is "quite a piece of good fortune for you"!
.

Fly-n-hi -

Crzipilot's post addressed this already, but lemme just ask: when was it that USA pilots were supposed to lose their jobs? Was it this year? Next year? Back in the early 1990's? Shortly after the United merger went away? Before BK#1? Before BK#2? Or was it going to be early-to-mid-late-early next fall, after the slow period?

How you claim to possess this knowledge is beyond me. You and almost every other AWA pilot here seem to possess this "knowledge," and ever since Bronner and Lakefield found these investors and decided Parker should run the show (since they want to play golf), you and your co-workers have been on here telling us all how USAir was about to go out of business. Wolf said it; so what? Siegel said it; so what? Gangwal said it; so what? You think these guys are above saying something they want regulators to believe? Man, that's pretty naive.

Investors were lining up even before AWA was part of the picture. U's restructuring has been pretty extensive, and we're a heck of a lot further along that path than some other notable Legacy Carriers.

So, when you have some facts on the much-speculated fate of USAir, let us all know. Until then, you sound about as credible as USA Today; they've been telling everyone that USAir is washed up for years.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Fly-n-hi -

Crzipilot's post addressed this already, but lemme just ask: when was it that USA pilots were supposed to lose their jobs? Was it this year? Next year? Back in the early 1990's? Shortly after the United merger went away? Before BK#1? Before BK#2? Or was it going to be early-to-mid-late-early next fall, after the slow period?

How you claim to possess this knowledge is beyond me. You and almost every other AWA pilot here seem to possess this "knowledge," and ever since Bronner and Lakefield found these investors and decided Parker should run the show (since they want to play golf), you and your co-workers have been on here telling us all how USAir was about to go out of business. Wolf said it; so what? Siegel said it; so what? Gangwal said it; so what? You think these guys are above saying something they want regulators to believe? Man, that's pretty naive.

Investors were lining up even before AWA was part of the picture. U's restructuring has been pretty extensive, and we're a heck of a lot further along that path than some other notable Legacy Carriers.

So, when you have some facts on the much-speculated fate of USAir, let us all know. Until then, you sound about as credible as USA Today; they've been telling everyone that USAir is washed up for years.

This whole arguement is a moot point, just how many of you J4J guys are JR to more senior AAA guys that are furloughed?? Furloughed is furloughed J4J or not, should you then be allowed to jump ahead of the more senior AAA pilots who chose not to fly in the J4J program?? I do believe that the furloughed pilots should be brought back to the NEWCO but to the bottom not DOH as many of you infer. That should not be a strange place for you as you were on the bottom before you were furloughed were you not???

WD.

 

[SUNDOWN]

WhiskeyDriver......How long have you been at AWA?

 

[BeCareful!]

WD

I had just over 600 pilots junior to me at US Airways, so, no, being at the bottom of the list was never a familiar place for me.

Why does that matter again?

According to you and others every furloughed USAir pilot's expectations were ZERO, so let's not even discuss it.

As always, Happy Win...d...fa....

Oh yeah. Sorry. I forgot you don't like to be reminded about how good things are going to be for you when the U retirements kick in and turbo-boost your seniority.

How about: Happy Father's Day!

 

[Crzipilot]

So tell me why I had 2 FURLOUGHED US Air guys in my class at AWA claiming they came straight from MDA? Was MDA planned before things went south at U? Was this a strategic move planned long ago to phase out your dependence on regional airlines? I guess I'm not so much trying to argue as much as I am trying to understand this logic. To me it does not matter who is eligible for this or that in your MEC/LEC. And again at CAL/COex we initially had 1 MEC that included both CAL and COex pilots (Because we were a wholly owned "division" of Continental Airlines). That did not change the fact that the FURLOUGHED CAL pilots at COex were still FURLOUGHED. As far as being shown as "active" it depends on whose list we are talking about here. So I suppose my real question in all of this nonsense is this: Do you have a published list for MDA that is SEPERATE from U?
Andy

Well Andy, that's the interesting point. As there was supposed to be a list coming out showing that, but it seems it's been delayed. Now I understand that CAL/COex were managed by 1 MEC, BUT the difference here, isn't COex a seperate airline in the sense it has a seperate certificate? Did the COex name operate under the CAL certificate? Probably not. That's the rub here. MDA was supposed to be a SEPERATE airline, it never came to fruitation, and the FEDS were the ones starting to push for everything be rolled into one, and that action was starting at the beginning of the year. Remember ALPA isn't really sure what to do with this, as they have gone into hiding. There were shouts that your furloughed, and that's it......now they have become silient. Seems some lawyers are getting involved in the mess.....I'm not there so I don't have all the details, but that's what is floating around. IF MDA had gotten it's own certificate, and become a seperate airline, operated under the GROUP name with a seperate DO, seperate DIR. Trng, and such. It doesn't exist, those which occupy those positions are actually the mainline positions. I believe, I could be wrong, but everywhere I have looked, it doesn't list anyone which occupy such positions.
So what airline do they work for??

 

[JetMonkey]

Well Andy, that's the interesting point. As there was supposed to be a list coming out showing that, but it seems it's been delayed. Now I understand that CAL/COex were managed by 1 MEC, BUT the difference here, isn't COex a seperate airline in the sense it has a seperate certificate? Did the COex name operate under the CAL certificate? Probably not. That's the rub here. MDA was supposed to be a SEPERATE airline, it never came to fruitation, and the FEDS were the ones starting to push for everything be rolled into one, and that action was starting at the beginning of the year. Remember ALPA isn't really sure what to do with this, as they have gone into hiding. There were shouts that your furloughed, and that's it......now they have become silient. Seems some lawyers are getting involved in the mess.....I'm not there so I don't have all the details, but that's what is floating around. IF MDA had gotten it's own certificate, and become a seperate airline, operated under the GROUP name with a seperate DO, seperate DIR. Trng, and such. It doesn't exist, those which occupy those positions are actually the mainline positions. I believe, I could be wrong, but everywhere I have looked, it doesn't list anyone which occupy such positions.
So what airline do they work for??

It has to have an operating certificate before it can take on the name "Airline" does it not? If it was under mainline it would probably be named some funky low-cost affiliate like "Metro Jet" was, you don't see Song and Ted as different airlines do you? no, they're part of Delta and United. So why would Mid-Atlantic AIRLINES be included in that? They had to have filed for a seperate certificate with the DOT.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

WhiskeyDriver......How long have you been at AWA?

Irrelevant!!!

WD.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

WD

I had just over 600 pilots junior to me at US Airways, so, no, being at the bottom of the list was never a familiar place for me.

Why does that matter again?

According to you and others every furloughed USAir pilot's expectations were ZERO, so let's not even discuss it.

As always, Happy Win...d...fa....

Oh yeah. Sorry. I forgot you don't like to be reminded about how good things are going to be for you when the U retirements kick in and turbo-boost your seniority.

How about: Happy Father's Day!

Happy Father's day to you as well if it applies!!!

I don't think we will see these windfalls you claim but I do see relative intagration happening!! Arguing amongst our selves is pointless it will have no bearing on the out come!!!

WD.

 

[TWA Dude]

Read my post more carefully. I specifically did not say thank the AWA pilots because I realize that we have no say in this aquisition. I said thank AWA (actually, I am a share holder). But the truth is if this prolongs the careers of USA pilots then they better be thankful down the road.

I disagree that USA pilots should thank AWA. When given a gift one should be thankful but this isn't a gift. It's a business decision that may happen to benefit many. If they choose to thank somebody that's their prerogative but it's sanctimonious to tell them to thank anybody.

I just want them to realize that without this deal they are toast. The only ones that say otherwise are the USA pilots.

Once again I disagree. I can't predict the future so what qualifies you to do so? Sure, USAir is in financial straights, but until the operation actually shuts down the possibility exists that they'll stay in business.

P.S. You're talking to the son of a TWA pilot...so I know how it is.

I'm sure you've heard a lot but I'm not so sure you understand what you've heard.

 

[miles otoole]

Irrelevant!!!

WD.

Irrelevant because you are new. If you had been there for 15 years, you would certainly tell us.

 

[Crzipilot]

It has to have an operating certificate before it can take on the name "Airline" does it not? If it was under mainline it would probably be named some funky low-cost affiliate like "Metro Jet" was, you don't see Song and Ted as different airlines do you? no, they're part of Delta and United. So why would Mid-Atlantic AIRLINES be included in that? They had to have filed for a seperate certificate with the DOT.

Ok..this I don't understand. As far as MDA goes, they may have started the filing process, but filing an application doesn't mean squat. They don't have a seperate certificate nor are they going to have one. The FEDS have had hurtburn over the whole thing. Oh Wait you mean the FEDS wouldn't do anything outside the lines...ok.....
Anyways don't have the time nor desire to look up DOT filings, but yes, MDA is basically the same as Song or TED, the way it is run now. Except it's a cluster F*** and ALPA has allowed it to go on...and now both sides are trying to sweep it under the rug......

On another note....the MDA folks started paying dues from day 1 of training. I on the other hand at a j4j position was listed as an apprentice by ALPA for 1 yr.......why the difference???? Because ALPA viewed the MDA pilots as being recalled to active status on the AAA certificate

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Quote from TWA Dude: "I'm sure you've heard a lot but I'm not so sure you understand what you've heard."

My father was there for 39 years and my Grandfather was there for 38 years, both as pilots. Trust me, I probably know more about and understand the events at TWA than you did. Still wanna argue about this?

That has nothing to do with the AWA aquisition of US Airways so it's pointless to drabble on about it.

So you don't think that the USA pilots should be thankful? Fine...don't be thankful to AWA...but you better be thankful. Heck, you should be thankful that you have a job. I know I am! There...case closed.

And so you all know my source for US Airway's near certain demise is US Airways pilots that I have spoken to, not USA Today. They are certainly a more credible, or at least more believable source than you (or anyone on flightinfo.com) are. Only recently have they been singing a different tune...now that integration is likely. GE Capital has some interesting things to say about this as well.

You are right in that I don't have a crystal ball and I cannot see the future. What I can tell you for sure is this: At this moment AWA is in a much better position than US Airways. You cannot argue with this. All you can say is "AWA is not in the greatest shape right now, either." No, but we are in much better shape than US Airways...hands down. Would we be in 10 years? 15 years? I don't know, I don't care. I do know that we are not going to wait that long to integrate.

Nobody is trying to hose the US Airways pilots. So I'll say it again: Relative integration of the two Active lists with the furloughee's being recalled as needed to the bottom of that list. Then, after all the furloughs have returned, we will hire off the street. I don't have a problem with fences and I think that a fence right down the Mississippi River is not a bad idea.

Now, obviously, there will be other issues such as furloughs being recalled to PHX or LAS instead of CLT or PHL, but we will work those out.

P.S. I have not spoken to one AWA pilot who wishes to bid to the East Coast. I'm sure there are a few out there but I have not spoken to any of them. I have spoken to a handful of US Airways pilots on overnights and quite a few of them were interested in bidding out to PHX. Point: It seems to me that there are more US Airways pilots who wish to cross the fence than AWA pilots. Its things like this that compel me to be vocal.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Ill be back in 4 days...peace out.

 

[PHXFLYR]

[

PHXFLYER.....uhmmmm......I feelt he pain you flew 10 years at a WO'd, As to you saying *ELL no to the CEL list, well why?? the CEL list is there, it was promised these guys could flow up, and they should still be able to after the merger. What would you have against these guys flowing up??? No where have I mentioned them being integrated or slotted or DOH, just that the program needs to be kept in place. Alot of those guys are in the mid 20's and in 10 years may still be there, and would prob. welcome the fact of being able to flow up to the mainline. Why wouldn't you offer them such a chance? Again the "I got mine" attitude prevails...[/QUOTE]

Re-read my post,friend . That IS NOT what I said. What I DID say and what you failed to understand is that if the CEL pilots at MDA DO NOT have a USAir senority number like the furloughed USAir pilots currently flying at MDA do, they should not expect to be part of the merger discussions. Only the Furloughed USAir pilots at MDA should . As for the CEL list and the flow thru agreement, this is an agreement between the WO's and premerger USAirways. I seriously doubt that you will see this part of the contract remain once the collective bargaining agreement is amended if the merger is approved. I find this quite disappointing on a personal level because I have quite a few friends there who we're my F/O's during my wholly-owned days.

PHXFLYR