Avantair Accident

[GIVSP]

Thanks Glass, Is Avantair notifing there owners of the incident? You would think as an owner, they would want to be notified.

 

[OPECJet]

No such bulletins that I'm aware of. I'm not sure what they would send.

"If you think you might have an engine failure, don't take off. If you have an engine failure in flight, don't land."

In Italian of course.

 

[G4dude]

That doesn't make any sense to me. Here is what happened...

I said:




[FONT=&quot]And then RCA said:[/FONT]





And then you quoted RCA and said:




[FONT=&quot]What did that have to do with what RCA quoted? I get that non-USA pilots may be more likely to not understand to not talk to the press...but RCA said nothing to that point. What did your post have to do with RCA's post? You quoted it. What's the relevance? [/FONT]

I was just adding additional info as a cautionary tale. My Norwegian friend would have gotten in trouble if I hadn't mentioned the press restriction to him. Just trying to keep that from happening to someone else, that's all.

 

[G4dude]

First, you unprofessionally jump to conclusions about the incident before you have the facts which hints at your poor decision making process, then you state you've lost 5 engines in your relatively short and limited career.

I won't stoop to your level and make assertions about the airworthyness of the airplanes you fly, or you ability to properly manage their engines because I don't have all the facts. However, it is safe to say you are either extremely unlucky, or there is another problem. Then again, maybe you're just FOS?

Be careful with those glass houses. You clearly have an ego problem and think this could never happen to you. Did you even listen to the tape? There was clearly confusion about the their position relative to the runway, and they stated they lost their gyros. They were asking for help, and instead they got cleared to land any runway. They were under pressure in an unusual situation. If you believe something similar could never happen to you, I feel sorry for you and your passengers. You have no idea what else they may have been dealing with yet you're happy criticize them. Does that make you somehow feel superior?

You have to admit, an engine out landing is not supposed to end up on with the plane on it's back. I suspect, without any facts, that the captain might have been hurrying to get his damaged plane on the ground. It is a pretty normal thing to want to do, but not the right thing, unless you are on fire.

 

[X-rated]

You have to admit, an engine out landing is not supposed to end up on with the plane on it's back. I suspect, without any facts, that the captain might have been hurrying to get his damaged plane on the ground. It is a pretty normal thing to want to do, but not the right thing, unless you are on fire.

Well of course I agree, but none of us know what other issues may have played a part. Wait for the investigation to be completed. If the airplane is in fact not capable of a single engine landing in a 15kt crosswind without ending up on it's back, perhaps there should be a single engine crosswind limitation. Or, at the very least, an AD should be issued to fix the grabby breaks. I suspect there were things this pilot would do differently had he to do it again, but that's beside the point. Flinging dung before the final report comes out is irresponsible and poor form.

 

[rettofly]

Well of course I agree, but none of us know what other issues may have played a part. Wait for the investigation to be completed. If the airplane is in fact not capable of a single engine landing in a 15kt crosswind without ending up on it's back, perhaps there should be a single engine crosswind limitation. Or, at the very least, an AD should be issued to fix the grabby breaks. I suspect there were things this pilot would do differently had he to do it again, but that's beside the point. Flinging dung before the final report comes out is irresponsible and poor form.

Max demonstrated crosswind for landing is 25KT. No reduction specified for single engine landing. Normal cross-wind technique works just fine on one or two engines.

Brakes aren't grabby per se, but they are powerful and could lock up if there's little weight on the wheels when they're applied..

FWIW, I'm guessing most of us have a few occasions where we would do things differently in a do-over. Like you said, let's wait until the investigation is over before we draw conclusions.

 

[Nick5600]

First, you unprofessionally jump to conclusions about the incident before you have the facts which hints at your poor decision making process, then you state you've lost 5 engines in your relatively short and limited career.

I won't stoop to your level and make assertions about the airworthyness of the airplanes you fly, or you ability to properly manage their engines because I don't have all the facts. However, it is safe to say you are either extremely unlucky, or there is another problem. Then again, maybe you're just FOS?

Be careful with those glass houses. You clearly have an ego problem and think this could never happen to you. Did you even listen to the tape? There was clearly confusion about the their position relative to the runway, and they stated they lost their gyros. They were asking for help, and instead they got cleared to land any runway. They were under pressure in an unusual situation. If you believe something similar could never happen to you, I feel sorry for you and your passengers. You have no idea what else they may have been dealing with yet you're happy criticize them. Does that make you somehow feel superior?

WOW! That is pretty harsh. If there is anybody here drawing conclusions I think it would be you... First off I haven't update my profile in some time, so you can add on a DA-50 type rating and several thousand hours. So that puts me at 3 types, and about as many hours as you. You might also note that I was a crew member on DC-3s, and Convairs. So if you think I have a lot of failures in my career its because I flew radial engine airplanes. During that time I learned a lot, and how to handle a emergency. I have however shut down 2 turbine engines. The 1st on was on a test flight after a hot section, and the second was for a fire light... That by the way didn't extinguish. Oh yeah I had to shoot a ILS with that too, and guess what I ended up on the right runway. NOW look at a crew that had a failure for what ever reason, and that can't for whatever reason distinguish SOUTH from WEST landing with a quartering tail wind. I dont give a damn if they had no gyros those big strips of pavement have numbers on them, and while I have never flown a piaggo I'm guessing they have a whiskey compass. Further all I said is what the NTSB would likely say. So if you wanna hang me out to dry go right ahead. But never for one second call me a crappy pilot, or one with a big ego. If you know me you would know I'm a very very conservative pilot, and that sir has been learned from experience. Something maybe your limited experience with no engine failures has yet to teach you, and perhaps your passengers should be the scared ones.

 

[AftCG182]

WOW! That is pretty harsh. If there is anybody here drawing conclusions I think it would be you... First off I haven't update my profile in some time, so you can add on a DA-50 type rating and several thousand hours. So that puts me at 3 types, and about as many hours as you. You might also note that I was a crew member on DC-3s, and Convairs. So if you think I have a lot of failures in my career its because I flew radial engine airplanes. During that time I learned a lot, and how to handle a emergency. I have however shut down 2 turbine engines...

Well, I HAVE flown the Piaggio. LOTS in fact, to the tune of nearly a couple thousand hours. Like you, I have two single-engine emergency landings. Both of mine in the Piaggio; one for loss of oil pressure and the other for a failure of the compressor bleed valve that caused my ITT to spike and settle on an ITT that required securing the engine. I think that qualifies me to say that I know what I'm talking about.

That preface was so that I could state that my opinion as an informed expert. As the Incident Captain's first single-engine emergency landing, his priority in that chaotic moment was the wellness-preservation of his pax. The sh1tty handling of the situation by the rookie (or unprofessional) tower controller was a major (if not causal) contributing factor in this incident.

So, if anyone's interpretation of our incident as "harsh", it's your interpretation. Lastly, our whisky compass might find a happier home as a paperweight. If you were in his seat and had relied on that for guidance in this situation, right now we'd be debating your airmanship, because that compass would probably have directed you to land in the middle of a lake, town, or hillside.

While I don't speak officially for my Company, as an individual I'd like to ask you to kiss our collective azzes. Have a great evening. Hope your future single-engine emergency landings are as successful as the ones in your past. If your incident ends up in flightinfo, I'm going to dissect you like a middle school frog.

Good day.

 

[X-rated]

WOW! That is pretty harsh. If there is anybody here drawing conclusions I think it would be you... First off I haven't update my profile in some time, so you can add on a DA-50 type rating and several thousand hours. So that puts me at 3 types, and about as many hours as you. You might also note that I was a crew member on DC-3s, and Convairs. So if you think I have a lot of failures in my career its because I flew radial engine airplanes. During that time I learned a lot, and how to handle a emergency. I have however shut down 2 turbine engines. The 1st on was on a test flight after a hot section, and the second was for a fire light... That by the way didn't extinguish. Oh yeah I had to shoot a ILS with that too, and guess what I ended up on the right runway. NOW look at a crew that had a failure for what ever reason, and that can't for whatever reason distinguish SOUTH from WEST landing with a quartering tail wind. I dont give a damn if they had no gyros those big strips of pavement have numbers on them, and while I have never flown a piaggo I'm guessing they have a whiskey compass. Further all I said is what the NTSB would likely say. So if you wanna hang me out to dry go right ahead. But never for one second call me a crappy pilot, or one with a big ego. If you know me you would know I'm a very very conservative pilot, and that sir has been learned from experience. Something maybe your limited experience with no engine failures has yet to teach you, and perhaps your passengers should be the scared ones.

You know what, I almost felt badly about my tone, but I just can't because you still don't get it. 5 engine failures or not, you were not there for this one, and you simply don't know what happened. Second guessing another pilot without the details is foolish. Maybe the guy screwed up, maybe there was something going on you don't know about. My point was a 15kt crosswind should not by itself have caused the airplane to flip over, and he was in fact cleared to land on any runway. Would it have been better to land into the wind? Of course, but until you know all the factors at play, you're just babbling.

I am impressed though. Did you really have to shoot a single engine straight in ILS in a modern jet airplane and then somehow find the right runway? I stand corrected. Clearly, you are the next Sky King. Keep up the good work.

 

[Nick5600]

Yes shooting a ILS with a modern jet single engine is much harder than shooting a visual approach to the right runway single engine.