Attention Tsa Jumpseat Under Attack

[h25b]

Just what is the point of running your mouth off about the GJ pilots?

I haven't run my mouth off at all. I have been one of the coolest heads of the entire debate. Instead of trying to turn the tables perhaps you could just try to answer my simple question ???

 

[Snoop]

I haven't run my mouth off at all. I have been one of the coolest heads of the entire debate. Instead of trying to turn the tables perhaps you could just try to answer my simple question ???

Answer..... F Gjets.....

 

[h25b]

Answer..... F Gjets.....

I rest my case.... None of you have the slightest clue what you're trying to accomplish.

 

[johndt]

I rest my case.... None of you have the slightest clue what you're trying to accomplish.

I haven't run my mouth off at all. I have been one of the coolest heads of the entire debate. Instead of trying to turn the tables perhaps you could just try to answer my simple question ???

The point is, your 'simple' question is just that. Re-read some of the previous posts on this issue, then use your 141 IQ and figure it out.

I actually have a horse in this race; this isn't some esoteric exercise for me. I face losing my job to those guys. What this message board does, is something ALPA has been unwilling and/or unable to do: keep people informed.

You don't have a horse in this race, apparently. The reason people get upset with people like you is that you come on here spouting off as if you know what you're talking about and as if you have some loftier goals you're trying to attain by being a jerk and trying to score intellectual points in a discussion about things that are hurting real people. You just don't care about that. That's fine, but I'm sure you can find better things to do with your evenings.

So the better question is, and here's your table turn: Why do -you- keep running your mouth on this board? What do -you- hope to accomplish? It makes me think that you're just a mean guy with nothing to do.

 

[h25b]

If you lose your jobs you have no one other than yourselves and your MEC to blame. Neither were successful in negotiating the additional flying so therefore you have the 2 pilot groups flying for 2 certificates. Of course though you are probably the same type person that gave CHQ a hard time when they got a less than perfect contract while trying to avoid the same issue.

Doesn't matter that's all history now and GJ's isn't going anywhere. No matter how childish you decide to act now the NMB has spoken, it's finished. You have nothing else to gain from acting like a bunch a whining children who didn't get what they wanted for Christmas.

So now I shall ask one more time. What exactly is your jumpseat war and all of the rest of this horse poo going to gain for you ???

1. You're not going to get those jets back.
2. You have no additional job security to gain.
3. Pilots will continue to seek employment at GJ.
4. Those pilots will in fact progress normally through their career assuming they are otherwise qualified.
5. The GJ pilots will in all likelyhood gain union representation and will be in the same boat you are... Fighting an a$$hole management team hell bent on crushing organized labor. **

** This will be your ultimate revenge, if there's ever going to be any...

Thanks for bringing up ALPA. Heck they were stearing their membership towards employment at GJ's. That must have been embarrassing for you.

Which leads me to answering your question because you will obviously never answer mine. What do I hope to accomplish ?

1. Knowledge by debate.
2. Killing idle time.
3. Driving home the fact that you all are wasting your breath on a path that will only serve to further divide the ranks of industry pilots thus accelerating the already meteoric crash of our profession.

 

[TSA145]

I've really given up pointing out all of the various flaws in your position, but this line totally confuses me..

How in one sentence can you say it has nothing to do with a jumpseat war with GJ pilots and then in the very next sentence claim that it's a result of TSA pilots getting fired for denying jumpseats???

Sounds to me like some TSA pilots wanted to play jumpseat war and in response management decided to make a jumpseat war impossible.

Sort of like A=B=C therefore C=A ... ??? ...




Pot, Kettle..... You get the picture. At least Redbook and TSA145 have a reason to be pi$$ed ... And you're asking me why I am even interested ???

Simple. A TSA pilot can deny a Go Jet pilot or ANYBODY for that matter, for SAFETY reasons. I would not feel comfortable with one of those scumbags in the jumpseat. The have demonstrated that they will do anything. Need an example? "Mister" J.A. came up to the cockpit telling the captain the he was going to sit up front even though there were seats in the back (that is against company policy anyway) without even asking for a ride. That is suspicious (sp?). I would not want one of those guys in the jumpseat. That is not a war. That led to the captain of the flight to deny him and therefore get terminated by the company. Later he complained to the FAA, and after a "conversation" between the company and our POI the pilot was re-instated and the jumpseat taken away from us.

 

[h25b]

Simple. A TSA pilot can deny a GJ pilot or ANYBODY for that matter, for SAFETY reasons. I would not feel comfortable with one of those scumbags in the jumpseat. The have demonstrated that they will do anything. Need an example? "Mister" J.A. came up to the cockpit telling the captain the he was going to sit up front even though there were seats in the back (that is against company policy anyway) without even asking for a ride. That is suspicious (sp?). I would not want one of those guys in the jumpseat. That is not a war. That led to the captain of the flight to deny him and therefore get terminated by the company. Later he complained to the FAA, and after a "conversation" between the company and our POI the pilot was re-instated and the jumpseat taken away from us.

You make my point perfectly, thank you... If you would have taken my advice (and I am not the only one who's said this) and all kept your mouths shut and made no threats this might not have happened. But instead, given all of the threats of jumpseat hostility and remarks towards the GJ pilots you created a situation in which the burden of proof is on the TSA pilot group. Management (and maybe even the FAA if you keep it up) will just automatically assume it's a simple jumpseat war... I doubt the company would have issued this policy had the situation you described been anyone other than a GJ pilot. You guys have spent all of your time threatening to deny GJ pilots jumpseats and sure enough you did... And sure enough, management reacted. Pretty predictable given TSA management's track record.

If the situation you describe is totally true than I agree that a pilot getting terminated is BS. But then again, what else would you expect ???

 

[LabMonkey76]

Which leads me to answering your question because you will obviously never answer mine. What do I hope to accomplish ?

1. Knowledge by debate.
2. Killing idle time.
3. Driving home the fact that you all are wasting your breath on a path that will only serve to further divide the ranks of industry pilots thus accelerating the already meteoric crash of our profession.

I don't throw fits. I don't throw people out of jumpseats. I don't even express anger publicly. I'm even polite in public to everyone. All I want to know is how TSA pilots have further divided the ranks and accelerated the meteoric crash of our profession by standing up for themselves in every way we know how (some professional, some not). Absurd or not, we have stood up and protested. In this G*J*t issue the TSA pilot group is certainly NOT further dividing the ranks of industry pilots and accelerating the meteoric crash of OUR profession. What are you thinking????

 

[h25b]

I don't throw fits. I don't throw people out of jumpseats. I don't even express anger publicly. I'm even polite in public to everyone. All I want to know is how TSA pilots have further divided the ranks and accelerated the meteoric crash of our profession by standing up for themselves in every way we know how (some professional, some not). Absurd or not, we have stood up and protested. In this G*J*t issue the TSA pilot group is certainly NOT further dividing the ranks of industry pilots and accelerating the meteoric crash of OUR profession. What are you thinking????

If you don't think this is EXACTLY what airline management (speaking of them as a whole) LOVES there is no hope for you. They just love to read through these boards and see the havoc they have created. Exactly what they live for. Words like, "Hos", "lowering the bar", & "race to the bottom" are all terms they live for.

The more time/money they can get us to devote towards fighting other pilot groups is less time/money we can devote towards fighting them. You ever stop and wonder how many dollars are spent on this BS ?? I'd just assume the money be spent on putting an end to this in the future.

It's called picking your battles.

 

[blackbox]

H25B,

Do you work for TSA? Do you know of anyone that works for TSA? I dont work for HK, but I do have a friend that works there. Its easy to be an outsider and say you guys are childish, grow up/you lost your jets to GJ, you cant do anything about it/ blah blah blah. But when they have a sub-standard contract and is up for contract renewal it sucks to have an alter ego carrier to be whipsawed against. If managements offer to TSA is horseshit, and the pilots shoot it down, what stops TSA holdings to just transfer all their flying to GJ? TSA has been trying to merge the lists to prevent this, and management said "sure, if you want to do that, extend you current CBA for 4 more years". 4 more years of a shitty contract, no thanks. That right there should show you what gj is doing to the industry and TSA pilots.

My airline is in contract negotiations as we speak. And its well below industry average. When its time to re-up the CBA, you hope to improve your pay and QOL this time around. For me, it would suck if my company decided to start "stopjets" and lose all hope for a better contract.

So i can understand their bitterness and can you blame them for coming on a public messageboard telling others to stay away and not accept a job there? I hope so.


I, like minime, also respect what you post here, And at times people can sound immature in the forums. I think its pretty silly how everybody uses the word "tool" or "douchebag" on this website. but when you went and bragged about you IQ score, that was pretty gay. haha

 

[h25b]

I think its pretty silly how everybody uses the word "tool" or "douchebag" on this website. but when you went and bragged about you IQ score, that was pretty gay. haha

I did end up sounding like a horse's a$$, but that is not how I intended it. It was meant as a way to point out that no matter how smart one may be, we all do things that are very stupid. For example, choosing a profession in which there are profoundly more qualified individuals than good paying positions. That's really the problem here isn't it ???

Do you work for TSA? Do you know of anyone that works for TSA? I dont work for HK, but I do have a friend that works there. Its easy to be an outsider and say you guys are childish, grow up/you lost your jets to GJ, you cant do anything about it/ blah blah blah.

It's not "blah blah blah" those are all facts. They do in fact need to get over it and move on.

 

[LabMonkey76]

If you don't think this is EXACTLY what airline management (speaking of them as a whole) LOVES there is no hope for you. They just love to read through these boards and see the havoc they have created. Exactly what they live for. Words like, "Hos", "lowering the bar", & "race to the bottom" are all terms they live for.

It's called picking your battles.

Right.... that's my point. G*J*t is a management ploy to bring us closer to the bottom. My question is how are TSA pilots not standing up for ourselves (again, mature or not) in EVERY way possible. Don't accuse us of racing to the bottom this time. The race is with RL, MW and GJ, not with TSA pilots.

 

[h25b]

Right.... that's my point. G*J*t is a management ploy to bring us closer to the bottom

I hope you're not just now putting this together. That's a given, it's WHAT TO DO NOW that is in debate.

So once again... What will a jumpseat war, tales of crew van mischief, and juvenile threats do to improve the situation ???

 

[redbook]

I did end up sounding like a horse's a$$, but that is not how I intended it. It was meant as a way to point out that no matter how smart one may be, we all do things that are very stupid. For example, choosing a profession in which there are profoundly more qualified individuals than good paying positions. That's really the problem here isn't it ???



It's not "blah blah blah" those are all facts. They do in fact need to get over it and move on.

Once again the g0jet defenders oversimplify and paint broad strokes. Oversupply is the problem! RJ's are the problem! Alpa! (last one is probably true).


TSA pilots were a unified group working together to IMPROVE OUR COMPANY.
WE WORK TOGETHER. AND NOW A SMALL GROUP OF TURNCOATS HAS HURT US. We will not "get over it" until it is resolved to our satisfaction. You H25b need to move on and get another hobby. TSA pilots are here and will be here for the duration.

 

[h25b]

Once again the g0jet defenders oversimplify and paint broad strokes. Oversupply is the problem! RJ's are the problem! Alpa! (last one is probably true).

Are you suggesting that oversupply and RJ's are NOT part of the problem ?? Pointing this out (while admittedly pointing out the obvious) could in no way be construed as "paint with broad strokes."

There are/is in fact: (1) way too many regional jets/operators of them, (2) way too many pilots for there to be an employees' market for pilots, and (3) way too much division in organized pilot labor. Strongly organized, unified labor is what artificially balances (2) against the pitfalls of supply and demand.

In summation.... take (2) + (3) = you have ourselves one heck of a problem. You are being at least some small part of issue #3.

You all need to understand that managements across the entire economy have wised up to these FACTS. Whereas in the past management could be counted on to honor the "spirit" of a collective bargaining agreement; in the present this is no longer the case. We are all going to take it in the shorts while we jump back ahead of them and tighten up all of our contract language (ie. TSA Holdings, TSA Airlines, etc..). And yes, it will take YEARS not months to fix...

 

[LabMonkey76]

3. Driving home the fact that you all are wasting your breath on a path that will only serve to further divide the ranks of industry pilots thus accelerating the already meteoric crash of our profession.

NO.... I obviously realized this was a ploy made by managment months ago. I'm not an idiot. These posts have merely been to say that we are not dividing the ranks and accelerating the meteoric crash of the profession by standing up and yelling at the tops of our lungs. The one thing you can't accuse us of is laying down and taking this. Mature or not, we're fighting the division and acceleration to the bottom to the bone.

 

[h25b]

NO.... I obviously realized this was a ploy made by managment months ago. I'm not an idiot. These posts have merely been to say that we are not dividing the ranks and accelerating the meteoric crash of the profession by standing up and yelling at the tops of our lungs. The one thing you can't accuse us of is laying down and taking this. Mature or not, we're fighting the division and acceleration to the bottom to the bone.

I respect anyone fighting for whatever they believe is right. I just question your methods and the chances for its success.

I never called you an idiot. I reserve that for very special instances in which you are by no means even remotely qualified for.

From the beginning I have said the same things.

1. A jumpseat war will never work and tends to have undesired/unwanted consequences.

I was right...

2. Due to very weak scope clause langauge. The TSA MEC will lose its single carrier petition before the NMB.

I was right...

3. GJ pilots will face no limits to their career progression provided they are otherwise qualified.

I was right...

4. The GJ pilots will seek and gain union representation by either ALPA or the Teamsters.

I'm sure I will be right. (I'd also be willing to wager that ALPA would certainly assume take their dues money rather than to see it go to the Teamsters)

 

[johndt]

already meteoric crash of our profession.

Which CRJ is your favorite?

 

[h25b]

Which CRJ is your favorite?

By this I can only guess that you are implying that the current downturn in the airline industry in no way impacts corporate/non-airline aviation ???

If this is the case you are truely naive beyond my wildest imagination. I think you could run a quick search of the corporate forum and start counting the numbers of airline pilots looking to make the jump to corporate aviation to find out how entirely absurd your assertion is. My company has countless furloughed airline pilot resumes on file.

 

[TSA ERJ]

h25b,
People's frustrations manifest themselves in many ways, sometimes leading to childish name calling and hollow threats. That does not mean that their concerns are not valid. GJ is an alter ego carrier and that has nothing to do with an NMB ruling or union representation. Neither of those things validate them as a pilot group or decrease the negative impact they will have on the negotiating position of the TSA pilots.

There is no "jump seat war" and there is no sense in dramatizing the situation. Personally, I would deny a GJ jumpseater because he actively sought a job that he knew would hurt me and I have no desire to help him. Is that political? Maybe, but the jumpseat is not sacred and it is the Captain's right to extend as a courtesy or not.

The NMB ruling and our scope have nothing to do with each other. Don't confuse the two.

Union or not does'nt change the alter ego status of GJ.

I completely understand that our fight is with management, but the pilots of GJ are enablers who allowed management to execute their plan. They made a conscious decision to take part in the undermining of the TSA pilot group and, by the very nature of a whip saw, their own futures at GJ. They actively chose to be tools of management to help bring down the standards of this profession.

If you are as intelligent as you say you are, then I'm sure you understand all of this and that simply makes you an antagonist.

 

[johndt]

If this is the case you are truely naive beyond my wildest imagination.

Flame all you like; you're GJ. And if you really do have a 138 IQ, I'd think your vast stores of imagination would far exceed my feeble abilities to boggle.

I believe it was a very sage internet bully who once said:

What goes around comes around...

If he was right, you should start ducking sometime around now. But perhaps his alter ego was more accurate:

GJ pilots will face no limits to their career progression

Who knows... I hope h25b Holdings is wrong, but maybe the universe doesn't work that way.

 

[FlyHIToo]

1st off...TSA PILOTS and "Blackbox" are the only people that seem to care about this....Most all the posts here are by TSA Pilots

h25b,
GJ is an alter ego carrier and that has nothing to do with an NMB ruling or union representation. Neither of those things validate them as a pilot group or decrease the negative impact they will have on the negotiating position of the TSA pilots. .

So you are saying that reguardless of the facts .... My opinion is the only right opinion?

Personally, I would deny a GJ jumpseater because he actively sought a job that he knew would hurt me and I have no desire to help him. Is that political? Maybe, but the jumpseat is not sacred and it is the Captain's right to extend as a courtesy or not..

GJ, TSA and TSA Holdings are no different that AE, AA and AMR, or DAL, ComAIR and DAL Holdings.

AE has put AA pilots on the street. ComAir grew at the expense of the DAL Pilots. With our logic no AA or DAL pilot should let a regional pilot in their jumpseat. Professionalism is the difference here.

 

[elcapitan]

h25b,
People's frustrations manifest themselves in many ways, sometimes leading to childish name calling and hollow threats. That does not mean that their concerns are not valid. GJ is an alter ego carrier and that has nothing to do with an NMB ruling or union representation. Neither of those things validate them as a pilot group or decrease the negative impact they will have on the negotiating position of the TSA pilots.

There is no "jump seat war" and there is no sense in dramatizing the situation. Personally, I would deny a GJ jumpseater because he actively sought a job that he knew would hurt me and I have no desire to help him. Is that political? Maybe, but the jumpseat is not sacred and it is the Captain's right to extend as a courtesy or not.

The NMB ruling and our scope have nothing to do with each other. Don't confuse the two.

Union or not does'nt change the alter ego status of GJ.

I completely understand that our fight is with management, but the pilots of GJ are enablers who allowed management to execute their plan. They made a conscious decision to take part in the undermining of the TSA pilot group and, by the very nature of a whip saw, their own futures at GJ. They actively chose to be tools of management to help bring down the standards of this profession.

If you are as intelligent as you say you are, then I'm sure you understand all of this and that simply makes you an antagonist.

Define "alter ego"

I hear this term being thrown around everywhere but the definition is not clear.

I thought "alter ego" replaced your current jobs, your current flying. You weren't there when Chautauqua fired 125 pilots in 2001 and gave their Saab flying to Shuttle America. To me that is an "alter ego".

Again, I believe there is more to this story then meets the eye. Looking from the outside in; What the hell happened in the negotiations for the 70 seaters? Why did that fall apart? Just asking..

I agree - You can do whatever you want with your jumpseat but why would anyone be calling the FAA about anything? Remember they are your "friend".

Doesn't make any sense to me...

 

[TSA ERJ]

FlyHIToo,
Please post the facts you are refering to that prove GJ is not an alter ego.

 

[purduedchi]

[FONT=&quot]Look...everyone here on this board can have their own opinion of what "alter-ego" means. Personally, I feel that Go.Jets has taken the growth opportunities that TSA had worked long and hard for. Yes, due to a technicality with our AA agreement we were/are not allowed to operate any a/c with greater than 50 seats (ATR excluded)...hence the formation of GJ. No one is arguing about that. But the fact still remains that we should be one list. I know all about the NMB's ruling and its nice to see that different hat brass, lettering on the side of the airplane that says "operated by *************************" or "transstates," and that contracting out over 50 percent of their work to TSA still means that we are 2 separate companies. While I may not agree with the ruling, it is what it is, and we will change our fighting stance. Simply put, to the pilots of TSA, this fight is not over. There have been setbacks, but it is far from over. And about that whole JS issue...that JS is mine, and mine alone to give away. I remember when we first took some of AE's 145's (which I hope to god you win that grievance and stick it to HK), I tried to JS on AE and the CA told me "not today." I said thank you anyway, walked back up the jetway, and found a different ride to work. GJ seem to be the only pilots that whine if they don't get a JS ride to or from work. And just because GJ and TSA are in the same building and are part of the same company...management thinks they can scare us into changing our opinions. Many of our pilots and union leaders have been fired to try and scare us into submission...and it is NOT working. Most of you individuals at GJ only see your side of things...and we at TSA see our side of things...and those 2 sides will never be the same. You think it's all going to be nice and comfy over there, but HK and his minions will do the same thing to your group, that they do to us. They will use both groups against each other...to get concessions, keep pay down in negotiations, to limit QOL issues, etc. Until your pilots realize that one pilot group is stronger than two...then all of this will continue. I'm not saying that ALPA is better than Teamsters, or any other union out there...but that 850 pilots is much stronger than a divided 650 and 200. Maybe your leaders should try talking to some of ours to see if there is any common ground...and if they don't like, or can't get along with our leaders then whose to say that you can't get a group of neutral pilots together and come up with a joint plan. As much as TSA is fighting a battle between management and GJ, you all seem to be just fine with the fight and enjoy trying to fight back. Until both sides come together...the fighting will continue and it will only get worse. But until that time, please don't think that the TSA pilots owe you anything. To all the other commuters out there, please accept our apology for this problem that we hope will be resolved soon. I urge you all to contact your JS coordinator and flight mangers and have them call our chief pilot. I hope you all understand that this is not the desire of our pilot group, but rather our management trying to tie our hands before contract negotiations.[/FONT]

 

[MINIME]

Nice well thoughtout post Purduedchi. I can definitely see how this mess is turning out. As I stated in the past, you guys will always be welcome on my JS. I think many of us can see through the red tape and see this situation for what it is.

May I make a small suggestion to everyone else on this board? Instead of calling each other names, my wee wee is bigger than yours type of BS, all those who are willing and want to make things better for all of us; lets start brainstorming on ways to make this right. As much as I don't like what you guys at GJ have done, you guys should also contribute. Take this opportunity and try to make things right and start being part of the solution and not the percieved problem. We as pilots, also have a responsibility to help ourselves and those that represent us to come up with a better outcome.

Allrighty then.....who's first?????????????

 

[johndt]

Take this opportunity and try to make things right and start being part of the solution and not the percieved problem.

Vote in ALPA. You'll get date of hire seniority, and I for one will welcome you back. One seniority list, and one pilot group for negotiations.

 

[Capn Lucky]

Vote in ALPA. You'll get date of hire seniority, and I for one will welcome you back. One seniority list, and one pilot group for negotiations.

Amen my brutha.....

As long as we are at eachother's throat (with Fuelflow and other future management fueling the fire) management wins. The pilots need to solve this problem. This would be in everyone's best interest.

 

[FlyHIToo]

Vote in ALPA. You'll get date of hire seniority, and I for one will welcome you back. One seniority list, and one pilot group for negotiations.

Because of the NMB ruling in Dec, even if ALPA is voted in at GJ there would still be two pilot groups and CBAs. ALPA national told the TSA pilots this in a letter just prior to voting down the LOA back in Spet. I can get you a copy of this letter if you do not believe me.

So the only way that the two groups could merge at this point is if both sides and the company agreed to it.

These are just the facts. It is not as easy as you make it sound.

 

[Capn Lucky]

So the only way that the two groups could merge at this point is if both sides and the company agreed to it.

These are just the facts. It is not as easy as you make it sound.

You are quite correct. It isn't easy, but it is possible. Even the threat of becoming one pilot negotiating group would bring the company to the table. This is the only way both groups can get a fair deal.