Attention: Conservative Obsessive Captains

[PCL_128]

You just proved his point. Many of the these "uneducated" people that qualified for loans (that they never should have gotten) were qualified because the government put pressure on banks to start lending money to lower income families and minorities for the sake of affirmative actions.

The banks don't have much choice because Washington, DC can penalize them through taxes and regulation if they don't. Its like saying "please give loans to lower income families...and BTW...if you don't we will regulate you out of business."

You see...Washington, DC did get involved and now things are a mess. This is what happens everytime Washington, DC gets involved. These screw ups don't end with the government, they begin with it. When are people going to wake up and realize this?

When are people gonna realize that living off the great government tit isn't a good thing?

You can't possibly be serious. You're blaming the mortgage meltdown on affirmative action in mortgages? This is just too ridiculous to even debate.

 

[Occam's Razor]

AFLAC!

 

[Luke's Dad]

You can't possibly be serious. You're blaming the mortgage meltdown on affirmative action in mortgages? This is just too ridiculous to even debate.

Fannie Mae and FREDDIE Mac were created by the government to ensure that under-qualified non qualified borrowers were able to attain the American Dream: a house, 2 cars, several flat screen TVs to watch Paris Hilton and American Idol, PS3, and Xbox 360.

After all we are ENTITLED. Nice AVATAR by the way. Fits you nicely.

 

[PCL_128]

Fannie Mae and FREDDIE Mac were created by the government to ensure that under-qualified non qualified borrowers were able to attain the American Dream: a house, 2 cars, several flat screen TVs to watch Paris Hilton and American Idol, PS3, and Xbox 360.

Incorrect. FNMA and FHLMC were created to increase the amount of liquid capital that was available to lenders so they could offer loans to qualified buyers. In order for a loan to be even eligible for sale in the secondary mortgage market to FNMA, the loan must "conform" to FNMA standards. That means that strict standards for LTV ratio, borrower debt, and borrower income must be adhered to. You can't even get a conforming loan unless the monthly payment will be less than 28% of your monthly income.

 

[Luke's Dad]

Incorrect. FNMA and FHLMC were created to increase the amount of liquid capital that was available to lenders so they could offer loans to qualified buyers. In order for a loan to be even eligible for sale in the secondary mortgage market to FNMA, the loan must "conform" to FNMA standards. That means that strict standards for LTV ratio, borrower debt, and borrower income must be adhered to. You can't even get a conforming loan unless the monthly payment will be less than 28% of your monthly income.

Nice try PCL, but during my memorable furlough, I did plenty of conforming loans. It was not uncommon to get someone qualified meeting Fannie mae Freddie standards with up to 70 sometimes 80%, in one case 95% of monthly income devoted to house payment. All you needed was good credit and good LTV.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

You can't possibly be serious. You're blaming the mortgage meltdown on affirmative action in mortgages? This is just too ridiculous to even debate.

Yes. I am being serious. I wouldn't narrow it down to affirmative action, though. I would blame it on general government involvement.

In fact, I'll bet my next paycheck (assuming the govt doesn't steal it from me) that the govt, in one form or another, is behind just about every economic meltdown. It's not republicans and its not democrats...its politicians.

That's a nice utopian view of things, but it doesn't work in the real world. Like it or not, sometimes a little government involvement is necessary.

Our governments involvement was defined in the constitution...by men who clearly understood the evils of govt. There is a reason why they designed the constitution to limit the power of the govt. Unfortunately, the apathetic people in the US have given that power right back to them. We need to take it back.

...you and I would probably be just fine without government involvement in our lives, but others can't say the same. Some people need a little more help than others...

Government involvement in their lives is what got then into this mess in the first place. If it wasn't for Washington DC they probably wouldn't need help.

...I know not to accept a loan that I can't afford, but some people are uneducated and gullible enough to believe that if a lender will qualify them for it, then they can afford it.

Let me get this staight. If I make a purchase based on something that I know nothing about or without doing any research...then the govt should bail me out when I lose money?

So if I buy a car that turns out to be a lemmon (even though magazine reviews and consumer reports say its a lemmon) should the govt buy me a new one and penalize the manufacturer? If I play in the stock market (even though there's plenty of books out there that tell me its a gamble)and lose a bunch of money should the govt bail me out and go after the stock market?

Besides, many people bought homes as investments. They believed that home prices would keep rising and never stop. Many I spoke to (here in PHX) thought they would buy a house, keep it for two years, sell it for huge profits, and do it all over again. It never occured to them that the market would reverse some day. They didn't read their history books and now I should pay for it?

By "paying for it" I assume you're talking about the recent bail-out. Unfortunately, we have no choice. To refuse to bail them out would result in a multi-trillion dollar default that would destroy not just our own economy, but the world economy. We allowed it to get to this point by refusing to implement regulation, so now we have to fix it. If you want to avoid another bail-out in twenty years, then you should support common-sense regulation that will prevent these sorts of fiascos.

Nope. We can send a powerful message that says "if you gamble and lose we will not bail you out." That will teach people not to do it again.

Completely unfettered capitalism is just as dangerous as socialism and results in just as many failures.

Capitalism only worked when it was "unfettered." Over the last 150 years, as the govt has gotten more involved, capitalism hasn't been able to work. Get the govt out of it and it will work again.


Remember, very few decisions are made in Washington, DC because they're good for you. Just about all decisions are made because someone in DC is benifiting from it..either politically or finacially. That's just the way govt is. That's the way govt has been for thousands of years. That's the way its going to be for thousands of years.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Yes, that is one way of handling it, and I've done it with a couple of FO's I've flown with that wouldn't stop, however, it puts a pretty big damper on the trip and makes the atmosphere pretty crappy for its remainder. In general, it sucks both ways.

I think the point of the op was that people overall shouldn't have to address this kind of crap as often as we do.

As long as you're cool about it you won't have a problem. I think most guys are pretty reasonable.

Try something like this:

"Look, I understand what you are saying but I disagree with you. I'm afraid that if we keep talking about this it could turn into an arguement. How about if we avoid politics and discuss something like what a bunch of losers those USAPA guys are."

 

[PCL_128]

I would blame it on general government involvement.

Yes, of course, the government is to blame for everything.

Our governments involvement was defined in the constitution...by men who clearly understood the evils of govt. There is a reason why they designed the constitution to limit the power of the govt. Unfortunately, the apathetic people in the US have given that power right back to them. We need to take it back.

There is nothing in the Constitution to limit government regulation over commerce. In fact, it specifically allows it.

Let me get this staight. If I make a purchase based on something that I know nothing about or without doing any research...then the govt should bail me out when I lose money?

No, the bailout is the unfortunate result of people like you not allowing any regulation in the first place. If we had had the regulation to begin with to prevent this mess, then there never would have been a need for a bailout. You radical conservatives create your own problems and then blame the government. It's like Bill Maher says: "Republicans claim that government just doesn't work. Well, yeah, not the way they do it!"

So if I buy a car that turns out to be a lemmon (even though magazine reviews and consumer reports say its a lemmon) should the govt buy me a new one and penalize the manufacturer?

If the manufacturer purposefully produced lemons and defrauded customers, then yes, they should be fined and put out of business. Buying you a new one? No, but you should be able to collect damages from the manufacturer.

If I play in the stock market (even though there's plenty of books out there that tell me its a gamble)and lose a bunch of money should the govt bail me out and go after the stock market?

The stock market is already heavily regulated to protect investors. We need this sort of regulation in other areas.

Nope. We can send a powerful message that says "if you gamble and lose we will not bail you out." That will teach people not to do it again.

Your desire to "send a message" will cause the world economy to crumble. No thanks. I have more important things to worry about than giving idiot consumers a figurative spanking.

 

[Luke's Dad]

You are right. It is ridiculous to debate someone who thinks they have the right and entitlement to more government regulation.

Who gets to be the regulator? Some Sociology Doctor from Berkeley. Clearly we will have government experts who will tell you how much health care you deserve, what car you can buy (unless they can skim some taxes off of your SUV), what school you will attend and what career you will pursue. They will accomplish all this in between bong hits. It will be a true liberal Utopia.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Yes, of course, the government is to blame for everything.

No. Idiots are to blame. The govt, and people who think like you, enable them.

There is nothing in the Constitution to limit government regulation over commerce. In fact, it specifically allows it.

The less regulation the better off we'll be. Washington is full of people. Those people have selfish interests. More often than not their regulations are benifiting someone at someone else's expense. You want a good example/research project? Study the regulations on the railway industry back in the 1840s-1860s. You'll see where govt's intrests were. This is one example of thousands.

No, the bailout is the unfortunate result of people like you not allowing any regulation in the first place.

This kind of attitude scares me. You're one of those types who's been cultured to believe that corporate America is bad. All they want to do is take advantage of and screw the little guy. The joker is "Management's true face." If we don't do something to stop these evil corporations they will take advantage of us. You need to unplug your TV right now and stop watching movies.

You've obviously been raised to trust govt. When things get rough you are going to look to them to save you. DC is the big coffer and you want to get in on it.

If we had had the regulation to begin with to prevent this mess, then there never would have been a need for a bailout.

This is the problem with your thinking. You believe that the govt is looking out for you. You seem to think that the govt is the all knowing entity that is there to protect you...like govt is the god you worship. You also seem to think that if the govt gets involved it then it must be for good reasons. I'm sure there are a few good people in the govt who really do want to do good. But they are the vast minority.

You radical conservatives create your own problems and then blame the government. It's like Bill Maher says: "Republicans claim that government just doesn't work. Well, yeah, not the way they do it!"

Well if Bill Maher says it then it must be gospel. BTW, I never said I was a Republican.

If the manufacturer purposefully produced lemons and defrauded customers, then yes, they should be fined and put out of business. Buying you a new one? No, but you should be able to collect damages from the manufacturer.

The solution to that problem is this: Write bad reviews of their product. Stop buying their product. Hit them where it hurts...in the pocket book. If there is gross negligence in their designs then sue them in court (there are plenty of bloodsucking lawyers out there). We don't need DC to regulate everthing like we're a bunch of helpless babies.

Its like Thomas Jefferson said: "I would rather have total liberty and accept the fact that some people will abuse it than to give up that liberty."

BTW, Thomas Jefferson knew alot more about it than you or I.

The stock market is already heavily regulated to protect investors. We need this sort of regulation in other areas.

You want another research project? Look at the Feds invovement in the creating of and inflation of dollars and how it affected the stock market in 1928-1929. You'll soon learn that govt involvement in the stock market isn't neccessarily good for you and I.

Your desire to "send a message" will cause the world economy to crumble. No thanks. I have more important things to worry about than giving idiot consumers a figurative spanking.

Your desire to bail everybody out of their bad decisions is what will cause the economy to crumble. When you tax me to pay for these bad decisions that's money that I can't use to invest. I can't invest into business so now that business cannot grow and hire more tax paying employees. I can't save up for my retirement so now I have to depend on the scam known as Social Security. You keep taking away my abilty to take care of myself.

I have nothing more important to worry about than you throwing away and wasting my hard earned money.



Funny how you are so desperate to categorize people, like when you call me a "radical conservative."

Put your money where your mouth is. Start sending some of your cash to the people who are going into foreclosure...if you're so concerned about it. And while you're at it get your friends to do it, too. I have no problem with you bailing everybody out. Stop taxing us and you can show us how great you are by sending them you're money. Or perhaps you wouldn't mind telling us how much you've already donated??

What gives you the right or what gives your buddies in Washington DC the right to force me to pay for it?