Atp Circ Apch Vmc Only

[pilotyip]

The Vmc circle to land only marks you as a professional pilot. It marks you as someone who got your type rating upon competition of an air carrier-training program. Someone who earned his or her rating, as opposed to someone with enough money who can buy a rating without the airline restriction. BTW Circling under a four hundred foot ceiling in a big jet is dangerous. I think you will also find that the Cat D or E mins are very close to Vmc

 

[lineflyer1]

The Vmc circle to land only marks you as a professional pilot. It marks you as someone who got your type rating upon competition of an air carrier-training program. Someone who earned his or her rating, as opposed to someone with enough money who can buy a rating without the airline restriction. BTW Circling under a four hundred foot ceiling in a big jet is dangerous. I think you will also find that the Cat D or E mins are very close to Vmc

Yea, but some other countries still won't hire you if it's on your certificate.

 

[radarlove]

The poster is right about the sim. Most of the older sims aren't certified to do circling approaches. Interestingly, in one sim I flew, I got a type with the circling restriction, I flew the same sim (different airplane model, but just down the hall) and got a type in a different airplane without the restriction.

I don't think that was legit, since the instructor had to teach a weird, "Now, turn left, count for fifteen seconds, then turn right fifteen degrees for ten seconds and you'll find yourself lined up."

The visuals were useless for the circle, since you were at almost right-angles to the runways and the lights just didn't represent anything approaching reality.

Circling is stupid in big jet, I did it once in Newark when the wind was 35 knots right down the perpendicular runway, they were circling and that one made sense to me.

Did it a lot in small airplanes, but that's easy. Horsing around a transport category jet at MDA is not the brightest option.

But this is all not really of help to someone who wants to work overseas. There are a lot of big sim centers, but I think sim time is $650/hour in a lot of places and you'll need a designee to run the sim.

I bet you could get it done in a couple of hours, which makes sense with the poster that said it was $1,200.

 

[navigatro]

The Vmc circle to land only marks you as a professional pilot. It marks you as someone who got your type rating upon competition of an air carrier-training program. Someone who earned his or her rating, as opposed to someone with enough money who can buy a rating without the airline restriction. BTW Circling under a four hundred foot ceiling in a big jet is dangerous. I think you will also find that the Cat D or E mins are very close to Vmc

I guess nobody at SWA is a professional pilot then?

 

[qxdash8]

So I guess I would have to pay for a PC in the EMB 145 to get it removed from my ATP and type.. Where can I do that?

Not sure where you could go for EMB 145 training - possibly (probably) FlightSafety? Where ever you go, you will need to make sure they have an examiner who is qualified to issue type ratings without you having completed their entire training course.

Just remember, you're not taking a PC - its a certificate ride. If you bust, its not just a little retraining and continue the ride, its an FAA pink slip.

 

[bizicmo]

China will not take you either with that limitation.

Please clarify. These other countries won't take you if you have this circle to land limitation on your ATP certificate or on a specific type rating. When I got my ATP there was a circle to land so I don't have it on my ATP, but when I got the 737 type I have that limitation on the type. Would that be a disqualifier in china, middle east ect?

 

[Spooky 2]

Better question is ....why would you want to do a circle app in IFR?

Your user name is appropriate as the circling approach is a structured VFR maneuver not an IFR procedure.

 

[Spooky 2]

I think companies here in the USA are putting the restriction on our ratings so it limits our job options. Just another way to keep us down

Dumb answer to a significant issue!

 

[Spooky 2]

Bottom line. You need to have a simulator that has the circ. visual installed, then you simply need to do the procedure/maneuver and have the restriction removed frim you Airman's cert. This is not rocket science, but rather simply another maneuver. Beware however there are at least a dozen ways to screw this up. I see this done in both the 747-400 and the 777 on a weekly basis and it's not always pretty. It's very easy to get into an unstabilized approach below 500' and that's where the rubber meets the road for the FAA.

 

[climb2slow]

Get to know a DE and next time you are in for a pc, ask him is in the extra time, he can do the circle removal. It requires an 8710, but only about 20 mins to do the procedure.

 

[Spooky 2]

Get to know a DE and next time you are in for a pc, ask him is in the extra time, he can do the circle removal. It requires an 8710, but only about 20 mins to do the procedure.

For the test yes, but the practice prior to the test will take a couple of approaches. Plan on an hour + for that.

 

[pilotyip]

sure they are

I guess nobody at SWA is a professional pilot then?

Of course they are professionals, why would anyone think any different. But they have to pay for their type rating and there ore get the non-air carrier type rating, unlike most pilots where the company pays for it.

 

[ProFracPilot]

So I guess I would have to pay for a PC in the EMB 145 to get it removed from my ATP and type.. Where can I do that?

Contact CAE Simuflite. They run the sim out at IWA. Same sim is used for Legacy training. They have at least 2 approved circling approaches for that sim - JFK and PANC - that I know of. 'taint no big thing to do.

 

[Spooky 2]

Contact CAE Simuflite. They run the sim out at IWA. Same sim is used for Legacy training. They have at least 2 approved circling approaches for that sim - JFK and PANC - that I know of. 'taint no big thing to do.

The unknown is what their approved training course for this looks like. It could require require a defined amount of training as opposed to just a demonstrated skill set. Be ready for the more complicated version of this package.

 

[qxdash8]

Get to know a DE and next time you are in for a pc, ask him is in the extra time, he can do the circle removal. It requires an 8710, but only about 20 mins to do the procedure.

In the 121 world "DE's" (designated examiners) are actually called APD's (Aircrew Program Designees). APD's are designees of the FAA Aircrew Program Manager assigned to the certificate. As such, APD's are only allowed to issue certicates withing the confines of the carriers approved training program. If circling approaches are not part of your carriers approved training program, your APD cannot do the check ride to remove the limitaion.

 

[AC560]

as the circling approach is a structured VFR maneuver not an IFR procedure.

You have a reference for that?

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Of course they are professionals, why would anyone think any different. But they have to pay for their type rating and there ore get the non-air carrier type rating, unlike most pilots where the company pays for it.

I'm sorry pilotyip, but I didn't pay for my 767 type here at ANA and I don't have that restriction. Does that makes it an unprofessional training by a non-air carrier?, we seem to always think in terms of how we do things here in the US as the "norm" and that simply is not the case. When you train at carriers all over the world they train you to proficiency down to circling minimums and these restriction is not placed on your type, also the F/O's go through the same training and type certification as the captains. The airlines here in the US have this restriction on our licence's just for the purpose of cost savings by reducing the training programs as much as they can, hence the "circling VMC" and the second biggest lie since "Cuba Libre" an "SIC Type"

 

[Spooky 2]

You have a reference for that?

Not sure what you are implying and no I don't have a reference for that here at my present location. I have taught the circling approach in the 777 and if if you cannot maintain visual conditions while circling, i.e., lose sight of the runway, you should execute a missed approach. At no time during the circling maneuver should you be IMC. In the 777 we are doing 2.5 miles and 500 AGL. (D Category)

 

[Spooky 2]

ANA standards

I'm sorry pilotyip, but I didn't pay for my 767 type here at ANA and I don't have that restriction. Does that makes it an unprofessional training by a non-air carrier?, we seem to always think in terms of how we do things here in the US as the "norm" and that simply is not the case. When you train at carriers all over the world they train you to proficiency down to circling minimums and these restriction is not placed on your type, also the F/O's go through the same training and type certification as the captains. The airlines here in the US have this restriction on our licence's just for the purpose of cost savings by reducing the training programs as much as they can, hence the "circling VMC" and the second biggest lie since "Cuba Libre" an "SIC Type"

ANA training is quite well known for being very difficult and in the case of the circling approach I have heard that it's hand flown with a +20'/-zero during the circle. This is a lot harder than it sounds and there are numerous "former ANA trainees" that will attest to it.

 

[pipe]

The Vmc circle to land only marks you as a professional pilot. It marks you as someone who got your type rating upon competition of an air carrier-training program. Someone who earned his or her rating, as opposed to someone with enough money who can buy a rating without the airline restriction. BTW Circling under a four hundred foot ceiling in a big jet is dangerous. I think you will also find that the Cat D or E mins are very close to Vmc

HOLY CRAP!!!! For the first time in five years I agree with YIP!!!!!

However, several of my types are unrestricted -- none purchased. Military-earned type ratings will never have any restrictions--and you are allowed to circle at mins.

PIPE