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Atp Circ Apch Vmc Only

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lineflyer1

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 19, 2006
Posts
113
My ATP has a circ apch vmc only limitaion on it.

My 3 type ratings have the same limitation. They would not allow us to do the circ to land approach at my company in any of the type rides.

Does anybody know what I need to do to get rid of the limitation? Do i have to demonstrate profeciency in all 3 types?
 
You have to take a sim check and do the circle to land approach with the FAA or a designee. My company gave me the restriction on my license, then I had it removed when I took a sim check for a sim instructor position.
 
You would have to do a circle for each rating on a checkride, however the first time you do one, it would remove the restriction from your ATP.
 
Who gives a crap if it is on there?!?! Most of my Types have the limitation, but a couple don't - so what. When will you ever do a circling approach in an airliner? Why would you want to waste your money getting that "limitation" removed.
 
ForgedBlade said:
Who gives a crap if it is on there?!?! Most of my Types have the limitation, but a couple don't - so what. When will you ever do a circling approach in an airliner? Why would you want to waste your money getting that "limitation" removed.
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Because I'm looking at flying in another country and you can not have that limitation on your Certificate
 
I have the Circ appch vmc only limitation on my ATP and my ytpe ratings. The company I worked for would not allow us to do a circling appch.
I want it gone off my ATP and my EMB 145 type
 
I have it on my A320 and CL-65 type ratings, but do not on my 737 and BE-1900. I am trying to find a place that would allow me to take a ride to remove it from the A320 type, but so far no place I have found has an "approved" program to remove the limitation without doing the full course (that is what they have told me anyway). As one mentioned, most overseas companies/governments want a completely unrestriced type rating to be eligible (ie. China, Korea), and I am interested in pursuing that option. It hurt me with Vietnam Airlines.
 
NEDude said:
I have it on my A320 and CL-65 type ratings, but do not on my 737 and BE-1900. I am trying to find a place that would allow me to take a ride to remove it from the A320 type, but so far no place I have found has an "approved" program to remove the limitation without doing the full course (that is what they have told me anyway). As one mentioned, most overseas companies/governments want a completely unrestriced type rating to be eligible (ie. China, Korea), and I am interested in pursuing that option. It hurt me with Vietnam Airlines.
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I think companies here in the USA are putting the restriction on our ratings so it limits our job options. Just another way to keep us down
 
lineflyer1 said:
My ATP has a circ apch vmc only limitaion on it.

My 3 type ratings have the same limitation. They would not allow us to do the circ to land approach at my company in any of the type rides.

Does anybody know what I need to do to get rid of the limitation? Do i have to demonstrate profeciency in all 3 types?
Click to expand...
This sounds like a complete crock. The company that wants you is going to put in the sim anyway and give you a checkride. During that checkride they are going to give you a circle to land approach in which you have demonstrate that you can do it proficiently. That would remove that circle to land restriction. I don't know why you would have to pay your own money unless this is complete bs.
 
lineflyer1 said:
My ATP has a circ apch vmc only limitaion on it.

My 3 type ratings have the same limitation. They would not allow us to do the circ to land approach at my company in any of the type rides.

Does anybody know what I need to do to get rid of the limitation? Do i have to demonstrate profeciency in all 3 types?
Click to expand...

If I am not mistaken it has to do with the sim and the approach in the sim data base. You need a sim with visuals around the side, (level D)? and only a handful of sims and airports, IND I recall are certified by the feds. Not sure if this helps any?
 
Try Pan Am, they will remove the B737 circle for about $1200. Don't know how much it is for the A320. You must be looking at a furlough. Good luck!
 
elag777 said:
If I am not mistaken it has to do with the sim and the approach in the sim data base. You need a sim with visuals around the side, (level D)? and only a handful of sims and airports, IND I recall are certified by the feds. Not sure if this helps any?
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maybe ........but my company does not allow circle to land approaches. To be more specific, we can circle to land but the WX has to be VMC mins or better, hence not a real circle to land, it is classified as a visul approach.

The compamy does not train us to do IFR circle to land approaches because we are not allowed to do them per ops spec. It is a waste of time and money.

It is CHEAPER for the company to issue you a restricted license than train you for an approach that you are not allowed to do.



That being said, is it true Vietnam will not take you if your A320 type has the circling limitation??????? There goes my back up plan. Time for the second backup "Welcome to Walmart"........
 
m80drvr said:
maybe ........but my company does not allow circle to land approaches. To be more specific, we can circle to land but the WX has to be VMC mins or better, hence not a real circle to land, it is classified as a visul approach.

The compamy does not train us to do IFR circle to land approaches because we are not allowed to do them per ops spec. It is a waste of time and money.

It is CHEAPER for the company to issue you a restricted license than train you for an approach that you are not allowed to do.



That being said, is it true Vietnam will not take you if your A320 type has the circling limitation??????? There goes my back up plan. Time for the second backup "Welcome to Walmart"........
Click to expand...

China will not take you either with that limitation.
 
To remove the limitation from your ATP only, you have to take an ATP level checkride that includes circling approaches. This could even be done in a single engine airplane if you wanted to convert your SE rating to an ATP.

To remove it from each of your type ratings, the checkride would have to happen in each type that you have. The sim used does not have to be level D assuming you meet certain requirements (and since you already have the restrided type - you meet those requirements); a level C sim will do the trick. However, the sim and the training program have to be certified for circling approaches. The sim certification will include the specific airports that can be used for the checkride (typicaly IND and/or MEM).

Also, since the checkride includes the issuance of a new certificate, the checkride must be conducted by someone designated by the FAA to conduct such a check (APD, TCE, DPE, etc.). I was an APD for a few years at my last company and issued many ATP's and type ratings.
 
qxdash8 said:
To remove the limitation from your ATP only, you have to take an ATP level checkride that includes circling approaches. This could even be done in a single engine airplane if you wanted to convert your SE rating to an ATP.

To remove it from each of your type ratings, the checkride would have to happen in each type that you have. The sim used does not have to be level D assuming you meet certain requirements (and since you already have the restrided type - you meet those requirements); a level C sim will do the trick. However, the sim and the training program have to be certified for circling approaches. The sim certification will include the specific airports that can be used for the checkride (typicaly IND and/or MEM).

Also, since the checkride includes the issuance of a new certificate, the checkride must be conducted by someone designated by the FAA to conduct such a check (APD, TCE, DPE, etc.). I was an APD for a few years at my last company and issued many ATP's and type ratings.
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So I guess I would have to pay for a PC in the EMB 145 to get it removed from my ATP and type.. Where can I do that?
 
The Vmc circle to land only marks you as a professional pilot. It marks you as someone who got your type rating upon competition of an air carrier-training program. Someone who earned his or her rating, as opposed to someone with enough money who can buy a rating without the airline restriction. BTW Circling under a four hundred foot ceiling in a big jet is dangerous. I think you will also find that the Cat D or E mins are very close to Vmc
 
pilotyip said:
The Vmc circle to land only marks you as a professional pilot. It marks you as someone who got your type rating upon competition of an air carrier-training program. Someone who earned his or her rating, as opposed to someone with enough money who can buy a rating without the airline restriction. BTW Circling under a four hundred foot ceiling in a big jet is dangerous. I think you will also find that the Cat D or E mins are very close to Vmc
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Yea, but some other countries still won't hire you if it's on your certificate.
 
The poster is right about the sim. Most of the older sims aren't certified to do circling approaches. Interestingly, in one sim I flew, I got a type with the circling restriction, I flew the same sim (different airplane model, but just down the hall) and got a type in a different airplane without the restriction.

I don't think that was legit, since the instructor had to teach a weird, "Now, turn left, count for fifteen seconds, then turn right fifteen degrees for ten seconds and you'll find yourself lined up."

The visuals were useless for the circle, since you were at almost right-angles to the runways and the lights just didn't represent anything approaching reality.

Circling is stupid in big jet, I did it once in Newark when the wind was 35 knots right down the perpendicular runway, they were circling and that one made sense to me.

Did it a lot in small airplanes, but that's easy. Horsing around a transport category jet at MDA is not the brightest option.

But this is all not really of help to someone who wants to work overseas. There are a lot of big sim centers, but I think sim time is $650/hour in a lot of places and you'll need a designee to run the sim.

I bet you could get it done in a couple of hours, which makes sense with the poster that said it was $1,200.
 
pilotyip said:
The Vmc circle to land only marks you as a professional pilot. It marks you as someone who got your type rating upon competition of an air carrier-training program. Someone who earned his or her rating, as opposed to someone with enough money who can buy a rating without the airline restriction. BTW Circling under a four hundred foot ceiling in a big jet is dangerous. I think you will also find that the Cat D or E mins are very close to Vmc
Click to expand...

I guess nobody at SWA is a professional pilot then?
 
lineflyer1 said:
So I guess I would have to pay for a PC in the EMB 145 to get it removed from my ATP and type.. Where can I do that?
Click to expand...

Not sure where you could go for EMB 145 training - possibly (probably) FlightSafety? Where ever you go, you will need to make sure they have an examiner who is qualified to issue type ratings without you having completed their entire training course.

Just remember, you're not taking a PC - its a certificate ride. If you bust, its not just a little retraining and continue the ride, its an FAA pink slip.
 
lineflyer1 said:
China will not take you either with that limitation.
Click to expand...

Please clarify. These other countries won't take you if you have this circle to land limitation on your ATP certificate or on a specific type rating. When I got my ATP there was a circle to land so I don't have it on my ATP, but when I got the 737 type I have that limitation on the type. Would that be a disqualifier in china, middle east ect?
 
Bottom line. You need to have a simulator that has the circ. visual installed, then you simply need to do the procedure/maneuver and have the restriction removed frim you Airman's cert. This is not rocket science, but rather simply another maneuver. Beware however there are at least a dozen ways to screw this up. I see this done in both the 747-400 and the 777 on a weekly basis and it's not always pretty. It's very easy to get into an unstabilized approach below 500' and that's where the rubber meets the road for the FAA.
 
Get to know a DE and next time you are in for a pc, ask him is in the extra time, he can do the circle removal. It requires an 8710, but only about 20 mins to do the procedure.
 

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