Atp Circ Apch Vmc Only

[Spooky 2]

Get to know a DE and next time you are in for a pc, ask him is in the extra time, he can do the circle removal. It requires an 8710, but only about 20 mins to do the procedure.

For the test yes, but the practice prior to the test will take a couple of approaches. Plan on an hour + for that.

 

[pilotyip]

sure they are

I guess nobody at SWA is a professional pilot then?

Of course they are professionals, why would anyone think any different. But they have to pay for their type rating and there ore get the non-air carrier type rating, unlike most pilots where the company pays for it.

 

[ProFracPilot]

So I guess I would have to pay for a PC in the EMB 145 to get it removed from my ATP and type.. Where can I do that?

Contact CAE Simuflite. They run the sim out at IWA. Same sim is used for Legacy training. They have at least 2 approved circling approaches for that sim - JFK and PANC - that I know of. 'taint no big thing to do.

 

[Spooky 2]

Contact CAE Simuflite. They run the sim out at IWA. Same sim is used for Legacy training. They have at least 2 approved circling approaches for that sim - JFK and PANC - that I know of. 'taint no big thing to do.

The unknown is what their approved training course for this looks like. It could require require a defined amount of training as opposed to just a demonstrated skill set. Be ready for the more complicated version of this package.

 

[qxdash8]

Get to know a DE and next time you are in for a pc, ask him is in the extra time, he can do the circle removal. It requires an 8710, but only about 20 mins to do the procedure.

In the 121 world "DE's" (designated examiners) are actually called APD's (Aircrew Program Designees). APD's are designees of the FAA Aircrew Program Manager assigned to the certificate. As such, APD's are only allowed to issue certicates withing the confines of the carriers approved training program. If circling approaches are not part of your carriers approved training program, your APD cannot do the check ride to remove the limitaion.

 

[AC560]

as the circling approach is a structured VFR maneuver not an IFR procedure.

You have a reference for that?

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Of course they are professionals, why would anyone think any different. But they have to pay for their type rating and there ore get the non-air carrier type rating, unlike most pilots where the company pays for it.

I'm sorry pilotyip, but I didn't pay for my 767 type here at ANA and I don't have that restriction. Does that makes it an unprofessional training by a non-air carrier?, we seem to always think in terms of how we do things here in the US as the "norm" and that simply is not the case. When you train at carriers all over the world they train you to proficiency down to circling minimums and these restriction is not placed on your type, also the F/O's go through the same training and type certification as the captains. The airlines here in the US have this restriction on our licence's just for the purpose of cost savings by reducing the training programs as much as they can, hence the "circling VMC" and the second biggest lie since "Cuba Libre" an "SIC Type"

 

[Spooky 2]

You have a reference for that?

Not sure what you are implying and no I don't have a reference for that here at my present location. I have taught the circling approach in the 777 and if if you cannot maintain visual conditions while circling, i.e., lose sight of the runway, you should execute a missed approach. At no time during the circling maneuver should you be IMC. In the 777 we are doing 2.5 miles and 500 AGL. (D Category)

 

[Spooky 2]

ANA standards

I'm sorry pilotyip, but I didn't pay for my 767 type here at ANA and I don't have that restriction. Does that makes it an unprofessional training by a non-air carrier?, we seem to always think in terms of how we do things here in the US as the "norm" and that simply is not the case. When you train at carriers all over the world they train you to proficiency down to circling minimums and these restriction is not placed on your type, also the F/O's go through the same training and type certification as the captains. The airlines here in the US have this restriction on our licence's just for the purpose of cost savings by reducing the training programs as much as they can, hence the "circling VMC" and the second biggest lie since "Cuba Libre" an "SIC Type"

ANA training is quite well known for being very difficult and in the case of the circling approach I have heard that it's hand flown with a +20'/-zero during the circle. This is a lot harder than it sounds and there are numerous "former ANA trainees" that will attest to it.

 

[pipe]

The Vmc circle to land only marks you as a professional pilot. It marks you as someone who got your type rating upon competition of an air carrier-training program. Someone who earned his or her rating, as opposed to someone with enough money who can buy a rating without the airline restriction. BTW Circling under a four hundred foot ceiling in a big jet is dangerous. I think you will also find that the Cat D or E mins are very close to Vmc

HOLY CRAP!!!! For the first time in five years I agree with YIP!!!!!

However, several of my types are unrestricted -- none purchased. Military-earned type ratings will never have any restrictions--and you are allowed to circle at mins.

PIPE

 

[Dumb Pilot]

ANA training is quite well known for being very difficult and in the case of the circling approach I have heard that it's hand flown with a +20'/-zero during the circle. This is a lot harder than it sounds and there are numerous "former ANA trainees" that will attest to it.

True, but they do give you a ton of sim sessions for you to fly to those standards and they also put a lot of emphasis on hand flown maneuvers, the relentless pursuit of the perfect hand flown visual pattern. Oh my lord I'm getting flashbacks

 

[Spooky 2]

The Vmc circle to land only marks you as a professional pilot. It marks you as someone who got your type rating upon competition of an air carrier-training program. Someone who earned his or her rating, as opposed to someone with enough money who can buy a rating without the airline restriction. BTW Circling under a four hundred foot ceiling in a big jet is dangerous. I think you will also find that the Cat D or E mins are very close to Vmc

Well first of all many if not most 121 pilots have this restriction on their certificates so I'm not sure where your coming from on that one? I have never been able to decipher the reasoning between one person having the VMC restrition on their certificate and another one, from the same airline not having one other than the fact that one would assume that the cirlce was a part of the training module once and then changed to not being there.

As others have noted the circle is a hazardous maneuver, that if not flown perfectly will get you into a lot of trouble, hence most airlines have adopted the VMC concept. The side benefit is that they can use the sim time for more active issues like VNAV/RNAV/GPS approaches.

 

[CA1900]

The Vmc circle to land only marks you as a professional pilot. It marks you as someone who got your type rating upon competition of an air carrier-training program.

Uhhh... that's a crock.

I got my ATP and first type rating at a 121 air carrier, and have no circle-to-land restriction on any of my type ratings. The circle-to-land restriction only marks you as a pilot for an operation that was saving a buck by issuing restricted types.

Our 737 pilots (like all our pilots) are issued full unrestricted types. Does that make them amateurs?

BTW Circling under a four hundred foot ceiling in a big jet is dangerous.

Maybe, maybe not. It's an arbitrary restriction issued to save an airline a few bucks in training; nothing more.

"Circling" can be anything from flying around the airport to an approach that's offset by 31 degrees or has a descent rate just outside the the TERPS envelope for a straight-in approach.

I think you will also find that the Cat D or E mins are very close to Vmc

Have you looked at an approach chart lately?

Just to pick a few at random, with their AGL MDAs and visibility mins:

MDW 31C (500/1)
BOS 4R and BOS 27 (621/1)
CLE 6R (509/1)

...and so on. That's not even close to any definition of VMC I'm familiar with.

 

[pilotyip]

mis read

Our 737 pilots (like all our pilots) are issued full-unrestricted types. Does that make them amateurs?

Have you looked at an approach chart lately?

Maybe, maybe not. It's an arbitrary restriction issued to save an airline a few bucks in training; nothing more.
..

Where did anyone say anything about amateurs? No it means they probably got their certificate before 1998.

In 1998 the Fed's came up with Vmc Circle to land restriction on the certificate if you were not training and checking on that maneuver. The circle to land is seldom done by 121 air carriers something that is not practiced on a routine basis tends to become a greater challenge. There are few airline, I believe Alaska being one that he Circle is a routine maneuver.

I did look at some charts I did not find one Cat D circle with less than 2 miles vis or 550' ceiling. I did find VOR A YIP Cat D 750' 2-1/2 miles. I find ONZ Cat D 900' 3 miles, and DET Cat D 790' 2/1/2 miles. I think those are close to VFR BTW I have restrcition on my DC-9 type Vmc circle to land only.

 

[BEECH-SLAPPED]

Originally Posted by ForgedBlade
Who gives a crap if it is on there?!?! Most of my Types have the limitation, but a couple don't - so what. When will you ever do a circling approach in an airliner? Why would you want to waste your money getting that "limitation" removed.

At Allegiant!

Uh, no. We have a 1000-3 limitation like almost everyone else. If you work for us, please refer to Ops Spec C075 and educate yourself.