atlas hiring

[legalalien]

On AirlinePiotforums it shows that Atlas pays 62 hour guarantee at 75 first year - Is that accuracte? If so it would be a nightmare at almost $2 to 1pound sterling to try to live anywhere near STN on that.
How long is the upgrade in STN?

 

[Fliteidol]

First year is 50hr/mo guarantee. The money is OK but they expect to own you outright for it! No quick STN upgrades anymore, 8+ years now!

 

[Whale Rider]

Good luck with STN! Hope its worth flying the 747.

 

[airspeedsalive]

Believe it or not I wouldn't mind STN at all. What are the competative mins? Would being "good" with STN help at all?

 

[airspeedsalive]

One more thing - could sombody post a sample STN sched? Also, how many days off in STN are there?
Thanks

 

[TheDogsBollocks]

One more thing - could sombody post a sample STN sched? Also, how many days off in STN are there?
Thanks

I was told a 16 on 14 off but the company could hold you for another 3 days. Commute to STN is on your own dime though!

My mum lives only about 40mins away but I would like to see some work to rule changes before I consider it. Jumpseating to the UK is not desirable or reasonable.

 

[Fliteidol]

17 on extendable to 21. Must have at least 2500 turbojet.

 

[airspeedsalive]

Thanks

 

[Whale Rider]

Believe it or not I wouldn't mind STN at all. What are the competative mins? Would being "good" with STN help at all?

Another one bites the dust.

 

[B747FR8DAWG]

Don't do it!

Believe it or not I wouldn't mind STN at all. What are the competative mins? Would being "good" with STN help at all?

This is why we're stuck with STN, the company loves when guys like this show up for an interview

 

[treetopflyer]

thats what i thought,

how bad could it be? im stuck right now in a regional flying 7 legs a day, no upgrade no money no adventure. and atlas will pay for my 400 type send me to exotic places and pay me well? sign me up.

well myself and every FO at STN is here to tell you that it is not worth it.

dont give in to the temptation. these people dont care about the crews one bit. they will burn you down with the feds, will fire you in a heartbeat, will try to do illegal things to you. go ahead and call alpa national and ask them who has the most section 19's right now and for all time(firings) and they will say ATLAS AIR. they will fire you without hesitation. the training dept is filled with amateurs and the ex colonel captains you will fly with are a joy as well.

buy hey what do i know.

have fun in stn.

but you can always reference my first post.

get the type and go to NCA or KOREAN

 

[johnsonrod]

thats what i thought,

how bad could it be? im stuck right now in a regional flying 7 legs a day, no upgrade no money no adventure. and atlas will pay for my 400 type send me to exotic places and pay me well? sign me up.

well myself and every FO at STN is here to tell you that it is not worth it.

dont give in to the temptation. these people dont care about the crews one bit. they will burn you down with the feds, will fire you in a heartbeat, will try to do illegal things to you. go ahead and call alpa national and ask them who has the most section 19's right now and for all time(firings) and they will say ATLAS AIR. they will fire you without hesitation. the training dept is filled with amateurs and the ex colonel captains you will fly with are a joy as well.

buy hey what do i know.

have fun in stn.

but you can always reference my first post.

get the type and go to NCA or KOREAN

Better yet, go to Cathay Cargo and fly a 400 from a US base.

 

[B747FR8DAWG]

STN = Abuse

Better yet, go to Cathay Cargo and fly a 400 from a US base.

That is a much better alternative to STN, but we have 1 new hire in class now (400 FO/STN) and I hear that we have quite a few candidates based on the number of resumes coming into HDQ. Some guys just don't know what they're getting into, just want to fly a 747 at all costs

 

[B737Dvr]

B747 in no time!!!!! here we go....

That is a much better alternative to STN, but we have 1 new hire in class now (400 FO/STN) and I hear that we have quite a few candidates based on the number of resumes coming into HDQ. Some guys just don't know what they're getting into, just want to fly a 747 at all costs

Does anyone also think that this is sort of like those ads you see in "flying" mag or in "plane and pilot" where you see a young kid smiling happily in the right seat and on top are the words, 0time to Jet time in 6 months!
Kids go to ERAU or whatever, put in their time there and walk into a right seat. They find out firsthand what it really means to work for 18K a year and fly 7 legs a day, day after day, and to pound it out month after month.

They bitch and moan and contribute to a conversation as if they have been around for a decade then get "bored" with the right seat of an RJ once they find out that upgrade isnt 2 months away....then look for........a B747 job!
hey how about that? We'll hire you, because you'll have $$ signs in your eyes, have a raging hard on for singapore, hong kong, and hawaii layovers and would love to be based in STN or ANC or NRT! then they get there, get beat the hell up and before long they bitch and moan, totally forgetting the fact that less than 2-3 years ago they were learning what pitch and airspeed meant!

Dont get me wrong, Im not saying young guys suck, they dont. they just get suckered in with images of prestige, respect and high pay....get there and then forget just how lucky they are to even be in a cockpit considering the obstacles ......and just simple dont know any better and want to fly a B747 at any cost!!!!......like the previous poster just said.


Yeap, makes it hard to raise the bar or eliminate bs like a stn base when guys are more than eager to go......sigh.....as long as these 0 time to B747 in not time ads are alive and well.....our battles are just that much harder......oh well...

 

[B747FR8DAWG]

STN Sucks!!!!

[/b]

Does anyone also think that this is sort of like those ads you see in "flying" mag or in "plane and pilot" where you see a young kid smiling happily in the right seat and on top are the words, 0time to Jet time in 6 months!
Kids go to ERAU or whatever, put in their time there and walk into a right seat. They find out firsthand what it really means to work for 18K a year and fly 7 legs a day, day after day, and to pound it out month after month.

They bitch and moan and contribute to a conversation as if they have been around for a decade then get "bored" with the right seat of an RJ once they find out that upgrade isnt 2 months away....then look for........a B747 job!
hey how about that? We'll hire you, because you'll have $$ signs in your eyes, have a raging hard on for singapore, hong kong, and hawaii layovers and would love to be based in STN or ANC or NRT! then they get there, get beat the hell up and before long they bitch and moan, totally forgetting the fact that less than 2-3 years ago they were learning what pitch and airspeed meant!

Dont get me wrong, Im not saying young guys suck, they dont. they just get suckered in with images of prestige, respect and high pay....get there and then forget just how lucky they are to even be in a cockpit considering the obstacles ......and just simple dont know any better and want to fly a B747 at any cost!!!!......like the previous poster just said.


Yeap, makes it hard to raise the bar or eliminate bs like a stn base when guys are more than eager to go......sigh.....as long as these 0 time to B747 in not time ads are alive and well.....our battles are just that much harder......oh well...

That about sums it up! :uzi: STN

 

[bman]

That about sums it up! :uzi: STN

Don't you think the rehtoric is a bit high here? I mean really! No one at Atlas should blame a newhire for the POS LOA and contract that allowed for the STN base in the first place. Many were told that the STN base was temporary and that a return to the states was a year away!

No my friends it was the veteran atlas guys that were around to provide an up or down vote on this contract. I don't see a need to lambast them for that, but come on don't you think you should place the responsibility at the correct feet?!

For those considering coming to Atlas do so with the clear understanding that there is/has been/will be NO growth! Oh there are new A/C in the pipeline, but they will be AT BEST one for one replacement of the 200's. If age 65 gets passed this year, the slow trickle that is upgrade will become nonexsistant. Everything people have said about the schedule and TOS is true, but it can be an enjoyable place to work for a time. Just make sure your eyes are open!

 

[heilhaavir]

Use THEM for once. Take a LOA from your current employer, get a 400 rating and a pleather jacket and go back to your previous employer after sending a THK U note to JC :beer:

Cheerios

 

[cfire]

As per the other chaps, that is where you're going to get based but you will be under the ALPA contract Terms and Conditions not the AACS one (or now known as AABO). Don't believe them if they say you will only be there a short time when interviewed. Hey, that may work for you though.

Here is the Atlas ALPA contract (CBA) IN PDF FORMAT. I didn't attach all of the recent LOA's that go with it. Just the more recent one's on STN. Those are at the end of the file.

The STN base was originally a union busting operation that grew to almost 200 non-union pilots while furloughing the same or more ALPA members on the US side and it was also an attempt to side step the wet leasing laws in the UK. The UK CAA didn't go for the latter and then Atlas created GSS and gave 51 percent stock to a EU citizen. Atlas still leases everything that GSS uses to them to this day. So Atlas got around that also.

AACS (or now known as AABO guys with employee numbers 9XXX and about 10 other Atlas crossovers) continues as a piece of leverage for management against ALPA labor. It is still a very sore spot at the moment with the Atlas crews and I doubt AABO will last through the Atlas/Polar merger that is currently ongoing. At least in it's current form. I don't expect them to get canned, but they won't be enjoying their current rewards for their past actions.

As leverage, the company is constantly doing base realignments and displacing our ALPA guys from their US bases to STN to avoid giving them gateway rights. Many of the STN crew members end up doing US based flying in the end anyway because of these displacements for negotiations instead of base needs. That's the leverage thing that is going on at the moment. The remaining AABO crewmembers is about 60 to 70 guys. They get a lot of the priority in upgrades, super seniority in the STN base and pay for their service to be our replacements. They were "replacements" because they hired at least one AACS guy for every furloughed ALPA guy during their ramping up.

 

[sgu]

If the STN issue were to be resolved at some point then would Atlas be a company worth applying to and considering it as a place spending an entire career?

 

[B747FR8DAWG]

Atlas Is Hiring - STN (Beware)

If the STN issue were to be resolved at some point then would Atlas be a company worth applying to and considering it as a place spending an entire career?

If STN were to go away, then YES, Atlas would be a place to consider spending your career. I have no intentions of going anywhere else, been here almost 9 years, but for the new hires it's a sh***y deal! The company is doing great financially (see links below), and the pofit sharing checks have not been too shabby either!

http://www.smartmoney.com/print/index.cfm?printcontent=/cover/index.cfm?story=may2007

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=253245521

 

[cmij733]

I recently left Atlas because the working conditions and quality of life sucked. I left within two years of being hired and so did all but 2 of the 14 hired in my class. Atlas is not hiring due to growth, they are hiring because of attrition.

Admittedly I was naive about Atlas when I accepted the interview and I foolishly believed the information I got from the person conducting the interview (MBSCP).

I was told to expect to be based in STN for 12 months max and that there were plenty of Atlas flights between the US and STN to get me to work. I was also told they would "work with me" in order to get me to my assignment. Also, I was told the most I’d be away from home was 17 days. None of that proved to be true.

In my opinion here are the problems with Atlas:

STN:

You will be based in STN which is about an hour train ride ($40 each way) or two hour bus ride ($30 each way) outside of London. Currently you need about 6 year’s seniority to hold a US base. Atlas does not operate any flights out of or into STN, yet it is a crew base that is growing (more displacements).

As a US passport holder, when clearing immigration and passport control in the UK, you will be asked why you are coming to the UK. If you tell them you are based in STN and are going to work, you will be detained (work permit? What work permit. My company didn’t tell me I needed one.) This happens pretty frequently until you figure out the “right” answers to the questions.

Being on reserve (standby as Atlas calls it) is an expensive proposition. I spent anywhere from $36 a night at a hostel (not very dignified for a mid-thirties, college educated professional airline pilot) to $150 a night at the Radisson STN while on standby. A few of my class mates quit early on because they were spending more on hotels than they were earning in salary.

Jumpseating back and forth to Europe is very difficult, especially in the summer when the loads are heavy. The European gate/ticket agents and passport control people are not very familiar with the whole concept of jumpseating. FedEx, UPS, and American do not allow Atlas pilots to jumpseat internationally. So you are somewhat limited on your choices. I mostly used United and they were fantastic (business class every time). Northwest’s policy is to put you in coach even if business class has open seats. Only once did the crew let me sit in business class. In addition you have to carefully choose your flights when leaving Europe. Even if there are multiple flights going to the US within a fairly close time period, you can’t just run from one gate to the next like you can domestically. You have to re-pay the departure tax at the ticket counter or transfer desk and then clear security and passport control. Also, Delta won’t take you unless you “check in” 90 minutes prior to scheduled departure time. MaxJet goes directly to STN so they are a pretty good option, unless they cancel.

When it comes time for your PC/PT recurrent training, don’t be surprised if you have to go to LHR instead of MIA. Since you are based in STN you have to get there on your own and pay for your hotel.

It’s not impossible, and many people do it, but the commute to STN is extremely stressful.

Schedules:

The schedules are not very marriage/family friendly. I averaged 22-23 days away from home. You owe the company 17 days a calendar month, but they are allowed to take four addition days every month to “protect the operation”. It happens all the time. My longest trip was 26 days. Also quite frequently trips get carried over into the following month. Once you are stuck in that “bidding cycle” it is difficult to get out. Atlas uses PBS for bidding monthly schedules and it seems there is very little transparency to the system. Having PBS and being junior blows.

Politics and Corporate Culture:

There are numerous factions within the pilot group: ALPA Atlas STN, Non-ALPA Atlas STN, AABO STN, GSS, Atlas JFK/ANC/LAX/MIA (with gateway travel), Polar and now DHL (ASTAR and ABX). It’s an absolute mess. Divide and conquer at its finest.

The culture of the training department was pretty surprising to me. I’ve been through enough training events in my career (6 transport category aircraft, 4 type ratings, no busts) to know. It was pretty disheartening to see guys “wash out” during initial training. What bothered me the most was the “pride” the training department seemed to take in the bust rate. There are a few really good guys in the training department, but unfortunately they are outnumbered.

Despite all of the above, I don’t regret my time at Atlas. I traveled the world (circled the globe on my first trip), I got typed in the 747-400, and experienced many cultures. But in the end the negatives outweighed the positives and so I quit…leaving an opportunity for the next sucker.

 

[B747FR8DAWG]

cmij733,

Great post, hopefully this will answer any questions for those who might be considering employment at Atlas Air.

 

[johnsonrod]

I am not interested in applying to Atlas (especially after hearing about the STN disaster), but I am curious about which aircraft newhires get placed into. Do they go to the 200 or the 400 out of STN? What proportion get 200 vs. 400? Do the 200s and 400s tend to fly different routes out of STN?

Lastly, have all of the Polar pilots been recalled? If so, have they junior pilots been transferred to STN or do they go back to Polar domiciles?

 

[Fliteidol]

I am not interested in applying to Atlas (especially after hearing about the STN disaster), but I am curious about which aircraft newhires get placed into. Do they go to the 200 or the 400 out of STN? What proportion get 200 vs. 400? Do the 200s and 400s tend to fly different routes out of STN?

Lastly, have all of the Polar pilots been recalled? If so, have they junior pilots been transferred to STN or do they go back to Polar domiciles?

Firstly, Atlas do NOT fly from STN. They put you on Ryanair or Easyjet to some place in continental Europe to start your trip "from" STN, if you have the audacity to show up in STN. They much prefer you jumpseat direct thus saving them the crummy ticket price on a euro loco cattle bus!

Lastly, an arbitrator forced the company to recall the illegally furloughed Polar pilots. The company wants to furlough them again and put them at the bottom of the Atlas list until this mess is resolved and then put them back to the combined seniority positon the arbitrator assigned them. That seniority number could have them based in Timbuktoo for all I or anyone else know!

Post lastly, cmij733`s review is the go-to post if you want to know what to expect should you accept this assignment! That summary is spot on!

 

[johnsonrod]

Firstly, Atlas do NOT fly from STN. They put you on Ryanair or Easyjet to some place in continental Europe to start your trip "from" STN, if you have the audacity to show up in STN. They much prefer you jumpseat direct thus saving them the crummy ticket price on a euro loco cattle bus!

Lastly, an arbitrator forced the company to recall the illegally furloughed Polar pilots. The company wants to furlough them again and put them at the bottom of the Atlas list until this mess is resolved and then put them back to the combined seniority positon the arbitrator assigned them. That seniority number could have them based in Timbuktoo for all I or anyone else know!

Post lastly, cmij733`s review is the go-to post if you want to know what to expect should you accept this assignment! That summary is spot on!

Good info. Clearly not the place to be any time soon. Got it. What about being assigned the 200 vs. the 400? Do the 200s and 400s fly different routes?

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Let me ask you Polar guys a stupid question -

How does polar "base" her flight crews in the UK? smells like cabotage to me. Just wondering how this works? or is it just a "crew outstation" if you will...?

I can just picture Cargolux opening a JFK base...

Also If you choose to reside in Europe does Polar take care of ur EU visa/work permit !?

 

[furloughfodder]

Flyingducthman,

I think you mean to direct your question to the Atlas guys. The Polar pilots are all based in either ORD or LAX.

PS- Like the Avatar....

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

As a US passport holder, when clearing immigration and passport control in the UK, you will be asked why you are coming to the UK. If you tell them you are based in STN and are going to work, you will be detained (work permit? What work permit. My company didn’t tell me I needed one.) This happens pretty frequently until you figure out the “right” answers to the questions.

Being on reserve (standby as Atlas calls it) is an expensive proposition. I spent anywhere from $36 a night at a hostel (not very dignified for a mid-thirties, college educated professional airline pilot) to $150 a night at the Radisson STN while on standby. A few of my class mates quit early on because they were spending more on hotels than they were earning in salary.

Jumpseating back and forth to Europe is very difficult, especially in the summer when the loads are heavy. The European gate/ticket agents and passport control people are not very familiar with the whole concept of jumpseating. FedEx, UPS, and American do not allow Atlas pilots to jumpseat internationally. So you are somewhat limited on your choices. I mostly used United and they were fantastic (business class every time). Northwest’s policy is to put you in coach even if business class has open seats. Only once did the crew let me sit in business class. In addition you have to carefully choose your flights when leaving Europe. Even if there are multiple flights going to the US within a fairly close time period, you can’t just run from one gate to the next like you can domestically. You have to re-pay the departure tax at the ticket counter or transfer desk and then clear security and passport control. Also, Delta won’t take you unless you “check in” 90 minutes prior to scheduled departure time. MaxJet goes directly to STN so they are a pretty good option, unless they cancel.

If this is true, (and I have full faith that what you are saying is true) then how does it continue to go on? Why haven't the Brit immigration folks caught on? Why hasn't Atlas been held accountable with the Brit Govt for having a pilot domicile full of Americans with no work permits? Why can't the Atlas ALPA folks pursue a solution by exposing this to the Brit authorities. I would think lying to immigration is a fairly serious thing.

 

[Fliteidol]

Atlas use an immigration loophole under a business visitor exemption for flightcrews paid by a foreign entity to obtain instruction or pick up a flight. Not sure how they then are able to take up residence, but thats what happens.

 

[cmij733]

You don't necessarily have to lie to the immigration people, you just have to answer the questions properly, as in "I'm a flight crew member picking up an airplane". As soon as you say "I'm going to my base to begin work" all kinds of red flags go up and the interrogation begins. Most of us had to figure this out the hard way (no fines or penalties for me) but it is a pain and not very pleasant the first time around. Eventually the company faxes a letter that somehow appeases the immigration folks (some sort of loophole as previously mentioned).

If you want to just live in Europe then your quality of life will be much better. As I understand it, as a crew member, as long as you exit the EU once every 90 days then you are ok. For me that wasn't an option because my family would have to leave and come back every 90 days also.

The hole immigration/workpermit/visa issue is complicated and some people make it work to their advantage. For me it wasn't a realistic option.