Atlas going Teamsters

[belchfire]

cfire, I really wish you the best of luck whatever happens. The RLA is a POS and the "fly it then grieve it" BS has got to stop-regardless of the union involved.

Before you get too much inspired by the IBT's leadership you need to understand a few things. I would first really study the differences between the old and some of the recently negotiated contracts by the Teamsters.

None of them that I am aware of represent a real gain in income when inflation is considered and I'm beginning to think that mine is going to end up being a net loss.

 

[SIGman]

I'm interested in pursuing a job at Atlas. Is anyone aware of current CBA floating around the internet that I can look at?

Cheers,
D

 

[SIGman]

Does Atlas pay structure include any sort of duty/trip rigs?

 

[DC8CRIVER]

Don't you just love a guy that has no idea wtf he is talking about. But talks and talks anyway?

Go look at the ABX pay scale JF 10 year CA $235 hr

Actually KS, ABX 1224 voted to take the big one up the tailpipe and win a one group race to the bottom. With the signing of the new ABX/DHL deal, they have elected to let ATSG rape them to the tune of over $80/hr (including work rule changes). Their top pay is now around the ATI scale at $160/hr for top CA pay.

That and they have about 430 guys furloughed...

Teamsters, ya know...

 

[cfire]

I heard it was part of the decertification of the IBT by ATI and their subsequent move to ALPA. That move due to the shenanigans with local 747 officials and ATI union officials not getting part of their illegal deal cutting under 747 President Sewall when IBT International cleaned out the house at 747 when it was discovered. I believe those local 747 ex-officials are under federal investigation now.

The ATI move has something about ALPA's President Prater promising a concessionary contract if management ATSG moved all the flying over to ATI. ATI decertified IBT and moved to ALPA and the ATSG signed the new ALPA concessionary contract deal two weeks after the decertification. Looks like the concessionary contract held while ATSG reneged on moving all the A/C over to ATI. Love how Prater doesn't mind whipsawing groups against each other. Probably why so many have left ALPA.

 

[hvydriver]

I heard it was part of the decertification of the IBT by ATI and their subsequent move to ALPA. That move due to the shenanigans with local 747 officials and ATI union officials not getting part of their illegal deal cutting under 747 President Sewall when IBT International cleaned out the house at 747 when it was discovered. I believe those local 747 ex-officials are under federal investigation now.

The ATI move has something about ALPA's President Prater promising a concessionary contract if management ATSG moved all the flying over to ATI. ATI decertified IBT and moved to ALPA and the ATSG signed the new ALPA concessionary contract deal two weeks after the decertification. Looks like the concessionary contract held while ATSG reneged on moving all the A/C over to ATI. Love how Prater doesn't mind whipsawing groups against each other. Probably why so many have left ALPA.

Cfire, you are completely mistaken. I have a lot of beefs with ALPA, but the one thing they won't do is engage in predatory negotiations. Witness my former company Astar holding at our old negotiated rates. There are no talks underway there, and we know we are dead because of it. (I've already left there, btw.) The only group that has pursued concessions is the 1224. And they gave away the store, for no reason. DHL had no where else to go for lift. They could have kept the flying and their old pay rates. But they chose to drop their pay to ATI scales, because "it's a whole new ACMI world out there". Complete and utter BS. I am most likely not going to contribute any further to this thread because I'm retired now, but I could not stand by and let such a gross misrepresentation of the facts stand uncorrected. Let the spin doctors of the 1224 have their go at it now. Hvy, out.

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

Cfire, you are completely mistaken. I have a lot of beefs with ALPA, but the one thing they won't do is engage in predatory negotiations. Witness my former company Astar holding at our old negotiated rates. There are no talks underway there, and we know we are dead because of it. (I've already left there, btw.) The only group that has pursued concessions is the 1224. And they gave away the store, for no reason. DHL had no where else to go for lift. They could have kept the flying and their old pay rates. But they chose to drop their pay to ATI scales, because "it's a whole new ACMI world out there". Complete and utter BS. I am most likely not going to contribute any further to this thread because I'm retired now, but I could not stand by and let such a gross misrepresentation of the facts stand uncorrected. Let the spin doctors of the 1224 have their go at it now. Hvy, out.

Second item first. You're correct about the capitulation of 1224. With the bodies on the street vastly outnumbering those remaining on property the dynamics of a ransomed severance package came into play. The vote to ratify primarily became a contest between severance for those no longer working verses QOL life for those who were. The outcome is understandable; the fact that a vote was allowed to take place within this particular framework isn't.

I've nothing to spin. I would have preferred to shut the place down and have DHL form a bicycle squad to deliver their freight via the interstate system (very entrepreneurial, there'd probably be free money from Washington to help get them pedaling) rather than offer the concessions which now form our CBA. We at ABX through 1224 did control the lift, and the reaction of DHL over Christmas to a perceived threat to their system indicates that a greater willingness during negotiation to use lift as leverage would have yielded dividends. It must be said though that even our sadly reduced circumstances continue to top those of ATI with our captain's salary having a base of $160K per year - not the $160 an hour as has previously been mis-posted.

As for your first comment about the demise of Astar: more to do I think with flying junk ( ref: airframes not cargo) than the upright moral integrity of a 'no compromise no concession' bargaining stance. When the price of fuel goes back up, as it inevitably will, the operating costs of aged 1990's workhorses will render them economically obsolete.

 

[hvydriver]

As for your first comment about the demise of Astar: more to do I think with flying junk ( ref: airframes not cargo) than the upright moral integrity of a 'no compromise no concession' bargaining stance. When the price of fuel goes back up, as it inevitably will, the operating costs of aged 1990's workhorses will render them economically obsolete.

I don't think it did. Astar and DHL had several talks about refleeting over the past few years. It always involved DHL saying they would do that for us but we would have to "realign our costs". Neither Dasburg nor ALPA wanted to play that game with the Germans.

 

[nitefr8dog]

I don't think it did. Astar and DHL had several talks about refleeting over the past few years. It always involved DHL saying they would do that for us but we would have to "realign our costs". Neither Dasburg nor ALPA wanted to play that game with the Germans.

Hvy, you can drink the coolaid if you want but any chance of refleeting was never really an option. Spending 100s of millions of dollars to refleet ASTAR for use in a market losing 100s of millions of dollars was never going to happen. ALPA/ ASTAR got sucked in by DHL/John D. to sign a contract, drop a law suit.... and dimantle an airline.

 

[nitefr8dog]

Cfire, you are completely mistaken. I have a lot of beefs with ALPA, but the one thing they won't do is engage in predatory negotiations. Witness my former company Astar holding at our old negotiated rates. There are no talks underway there, and we know we are dead because of it. (I've already left there, btw.) The only group that has pursued concessions is the 1224. And they gave away the store, for no reason. DHL had no where else to go for lift. They could have kept the flying and their old pay rates. But they chose to drop their pay to ATI scales, because "it's a whole new ACMI world out there". Complete and utter BS. I am most likely not going to contribute any further to this thread because I'm retired now, but I could not stand by and let such a gross misrepresentation of the facts stand uncorrected. Let the spin doctors of the 1224 have their go at it now. Hvy, out.

"No where to go for lift"! This after ATSG/ABX started giving aircraft and flying to sister companies working for scab wages! You have not been paying attention. Cappy and ATI have 757/767 operating on their certificates. Hete moves the aircraft and flying to those carriers and ABX goes away. But at least while standing in the unemployment line I could say no concessions!

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

"No where to go for lift"! This after ATSG/ABX started giving aircraft and flying to sister companies working for scab wages! You have not been paying attention. Cappy and ATI have 757/767 operating on their certificates. Hete moves the aircraft and flying to those carriers and ABX goes away. But at least while standing in the unemployment line I could say no concessions!

1224 still gave much of the farm away. It is a fact, not hypothetical conjecture, that DHL when faced with a system meltdown coughed up the severance package in something of a hurry. Had it been simple to transfer assets or logistics and split the savings between ATSG and DHL then that, when their system came under pressure, is what would have happened. But it didn't. We 'pressed-to-test' and received $75M. Too bad we didn't press-to-test a little more frequently.

A falling economic tide realistically does necessitate concessions, but we certainly stopped short of using all available leverage to mitigate their severity.

 

[cfire]

For what it's worth, I got my info from ALPA National. M.M. in legal. The part of the staff AIR one union at ALPA National. Funny how a union's staff personnel has to have a union to represent them against a union. I really don't have a dog in the ABX-Astar fight and have not really followed it due to my time fighting with union busting ex-Lorenzo management at Atlas over the years. We've had our own Atlas-Polar-AACS-GSS crap to deal with. We've resolved three out of that four. I'll let you get back to it.

 

[DC8CRIVER]

Hvy, you can drink the coolaid if you want but any chance of refleeting was never really an option. Spending 100s of millions of dollars to refleet ASTAR for use in a market losing 100s of millions of dollars was never going to happen. ALPA/ ASTAR got sucked in by DHL/John D. to sign a contract, drop a law suit.... and dimantle an airline.

Incorrect statements.

1. DHL purchased 6 new 767ER's and gave them to DHL Air Ltd in England. They have no problem buying new (or newer) airplanes to refleet their airlines. Astar was considered a candidate for this because we had been flying the US-BRU run, the US-EMA, and the US-BAH runs since the mid 1990's.

2. DHL purchased 30+ 757's for European use and have recently parked some of them. Prior to the surrender of the domestic US market, they had been looking at sending them over to the US to replace the older short haul US domestic market airframes.

3. DHL was losing 100's of millions in the US but were making much more than that offshore. They had sustained the US losses as a loss leader to supply a high quality product to the rest of the globe over which they had a virtual monopoly for many years until the Germans took over and drove it into the ground.

4. Astar ALPA pilots did not get "sucked" into signing our contract. John D signed a contract with DHL to supply lift 'till 2019 which they are still honoring. If DHL "dismantles" Astar, the Germans will owe Daz a huge amount of money to buy him out of that contract. Most likely - and for as little sense as it makes - DHL may well just let Daz provide the DC-8's for the next 9 years simply to avoid that penalty.

Driver

 

[nitefr8dog]

Incorrect statements.

1. DHL purchased 6 new 767ER's and gave them to DHL Air Ltd in England. They have no problem buying new (or newer) airplanes to refleet their airlines. Astar was considered a candidate for this because we had been flying the US-BRU run, the US-EMA, and the US-BAH runs since the mid 1990's.

2. DHL purchased 30+ 757's for European use and have recently parked some of them. Prior to the surrender of the domestic US market, they had been looking at sending them over to the US to replace the older short haul US domestic market airframes.

3. DHL was losing 100's of millions in the US but were making much more than that offshore. They had sustained the US losses as a loss leader to supply a high quality product to the rest of the globe over which they had a virtual monopoly for many years until the Germans took over and drove it into the ground.

4. Astar ALPA pilots did not get "sucked" into signing our contract. John D signed a contract with DHL to supply lift 'till 2019 which they are still honoring. If DHL "dismantles" Astar, the Germans will owe Daz a huge amount of money to buy him out of that contract. Most likely - and for as little sense as it makes - DHL may well just let Daz provide the DC-8's for the next 9 years simply to avoid that penalty.

Driver

DC8, unless you were hired as a consultant by DHL on their US operations your 'facts" are just opinions, as are mine. DHL also told ABX that we would be flying the 767-300 as ABX already had the 767 on its certificate. I stand by my statement, as horrible as DHL is at making business decisions I still believe DHL was never going to pour money into re-fleeting ASTAR. But my insight is based on my view from the cockpit window, unlike yours from the Boardroom. When the new ASTAR aircraft arrive I will become a believer!

 

[DC8CRIVER]

DC8, unless you were hired as a consultant by DHL on their US operations your 'facts" are just opinions, as are mine. DHL also told ABX that we would be flying the 767-300 as ABX already had the 767 on its certificate. I stand by my statement, as horrible as DHL is at making business decisions I still believe DHL was never going to pour money into re-fleeting ASTAR. But my insight is based on my view from the cockpit window, unlike yours from the Boardroom. When the new ASTAR aircraft arrive I will become a believer!

Your hindsight is excellent, dog. You are correct that DHL did not dump the money into Astar.

My view is the same as yours - no boardroom window (no cockpit window now, either). However what I said are facts not opinions.

I said that Astar was a "candidate" (not the only candidate, of course) based upon the fact that DHL had just bought 49% of Astar for 120 million and Dasburg (yes, I know - never believe mgt) told us we were candidates - these are facts. ABX was also a candidate - another fact (unfortunately, it turns out neither one of us got the new planes - also a fact.)

"DHL purchased 6 new 767ER's and gave them to DHL Air Ltd in England. They have no problem buying new (or newer) airplanes to refleet their airlines." A fact.

"DHL purchased 30+ 757's for European use and have recently parked some of them. Prior to the surrender of the domestic US market, they had been looking at sending them over to the US to replace the older short haul US domestic market airframes." A fact and a published report that may have been an assumption.

"DHL was losing 100's of millions in the US but were making much more than that offshore. They had sustained the US losses as a loss leader to supply a high quality product to the rest of the globe over which they had a virtual monopoly for many years until the Germans took over and drove it into the ground." Well known historic fact.

"Astar ALPA pilots did not get "sucked" into signing our contract. John D signed a contract with DHL to supply lift 'till 2019 which they are still honoring. If DHL "dismantles" Astar, the Germans will owe Daz a huge amount of money to buy him out of that contract. Most likely - and for as little sense as it makes - DHL may well just let Daz provide the DC-8's for the next 9 years simply to avoid that penalty." Facts with an opinion at the end.

We're all pissed at DHL and their catastrophic blunders. We may disagree on some details, but we were all equally screwed.
Someday, maybe we all - or even just you all at ATSG - will stand together, ignore the unions, and screw them back.

Driver

 

[nitefr8dog]

Your hindsight is excellent, dog. You are correct that DHL did not dump the money into Astar.

My view is the same as yours - no boardroom window (no cockpit window now, either). However what I said are facts not opinions.

I said that Astar was a "candidate" (not the only candidate, of course) based upon the fact that DHL had just bought 49% of Astar for 120 million and Dasburg (yes, I know - never believe mgt) told us we were candidates - these are facts. ABX was also a candidate - another fact (unfortunately, it turns out neither one of us got the new planes - also a fact.)

"DHL purchased 6 new 767ER's and gave them to DHL Air Ltd in England. They have no problem buying new (or newer) airplanes to refleet their airlines." A fact.

"DHL purchased 30+ 757's for European use and have recently parked some of them. Prior to the surrender of the domestic US market, they had been looking at sending them over to the US to replace the older short haul US domestic market airframes." A fact and a published report that may have been an assumption.

"DHL was losing 100's of millions in the US but were making much more than that offshore. They had sustained the US losses as a loss leader to supply a high quality product to the rest of the globe over which they had a virtual monopoly for many years until the Germans took over and drove it into the ground." Well known historic fact.

"Astar ALPA pilots did not get "sucked" into signing our contract. John D signed a contract with DHL to supply lift 'till 2019 which they are still honoring. If DHL "dismantles" Astar, the Germans will owe Daz a huge amount of money to buy him out of that contract. Most likely - and for as little sense as it makes - DHL may well just let Daz provide the DC-8's for the next 9 years simply to avoid that penalty." Facts with an opinion at the end.

We're all pissed at DHL and their catastrophic blunders. We may disagree on some details, but we were all equally screwed.
Someday, maybe we all - or even just you all at ATSG - will stand together, ignore the unions, and screw them back.

Driver

Again when ASTAR starts getting new aircraft your opinions will become fact! At that time I will become a believer. In the mean time maybe you can enlighten me with some "facts" on religion, politics or who has the best baseball team this year?

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

We're all pissed at DHL and their catastrophic blunders. We may disagree on some details, but we were all equally screwed.
Someday, maybe we all - or even just you all at ATSG - will stand together, ignore the unions, and screw them back.

You mean just like you and your buddies "stood together" in support of your hostages at Astar? GMAFB.

You weren't too concerned when DHL was sticking it to them, were you? In fact, you thought it was pretty cool, especially since it moved you up a couple numbers. Well, what's done is done, and it's a little late for you and the rest of your skeezix buddies to be jumping on the hero's bandwagon. That ship has sailed, and you weren't on it.

DHL may have made some "catastrophic blunders" but getting rid of Astar wasn't one of them. It was overpriced and underperforming, and whoever made the decision to pull the plug on it will probably get a bonus for having done so. All they needed was a change in a couple lines of the contract, and you gave that to them.

Welcome to the jungle.

 

[hvydriver]

You mean just like you and your buddies "stood together" in support of your hostages at Astar? GMAFB.

You weren't too concerned when DHL was sticking it to them, were you? In fact, you thought it was pretty cool, especially since it moved you up a couple numbers. Well, what's done is done, and it's a little late for you and the rest of your skeezix buddies to be jumping on the hero's bandwagon. That ship has sailed, and you weren't on it.

DHL may have made some "catastrophic blunders" but getting rid of Astar wasn't one of them. It was overpriced and underperforming, and whoever made the decision to pull the plug on it will probably get a bonus for having done so. All they needed was a change in a couple lines of the contract, and you gave that to them.

Welcome to the jungle.

We rescued you once buddy boy. That was quite enough. You have no one to blame but yourself.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

We rescued you once buddy boy. That was quite enough. You have no one to blame but yourself.

Funny, I don't recall seeing that in any of the bylaws. Is that an ALPA thing, or something you dreamed up on the fly? Because if it's the former, I'd like to know where it says that. If it's the latter, all I can say is that you have some very..."peculiar"...ideas about the way unions work, what their responsibilities are, and what they need to do to remain effective.

Whenever a union get's the notion that defending ANY member against an unjust termination it is somehow doing them a "favor," that union has pretty much lost it's credibility as a union.

I'm fairly certain Astar's union-buster took that into consideration when he was discussing with management whether it was safe to take the 5-year furlough protection off the table and try for 2 instead.

 

[rotor&wing]

You mean just like you and your buddies "stood together" in support of your hostages at Astar? GMAFB.

You weren't too concerned when DHL was sticking it to them, were you? In fact, you thought it was pretty cool, especially since it moved you up a couple numbers. Well, what's done is done, and it's a little late for you and the rest of your skeezix buddies to be jumping on the hero's bandwagon. That ship has sailed, and you weren't on it.

DHL may have made some "catastrophic blunders" but getting rid of Astar wasn't one of them. It was overpriced and underperforming, and whoever made the decision to pull the plug on it will probably get a bonus for having done so. All they needed was a change in a couple lines of the contract, and you gave that to them.

Welcome to the jungle.

One of the best moves Astar ever did was ridding themselves of one of their worst pilots, Jim M. aka "Whistlin Dan".

But 'ol "Whistle Britches" helped them do it by getting his ATP revoked by demonstrating pathetic pilot performance with a Fed on the jumpseat. And now poor poor Jim wants to blame everyone but himself.