Atlas going Teamsters

[FreightBumper]

You are right as usual, wait.. wasn't Delta IBT? No, my bad. They were alpa when they crossed Comair's line to fly all those people from Cincinnati and elsewhere. I guess neither group has the high ground in that arena. Just an observation.[/quote


Well that is certainly a new one. You may want to run that by the 7000 DAL pilots and get a second opinion on crossing a line. Also, you can call the Comair MEC and ask them if the DAL guys are scabs and if so could they send you a list. Pathetic.

I see. It is ok for alpa pilots to cross, but not Teamsters. That's what is pathetic, and it is not new. I have very good friends at Comair and they don't see it the way you do..

 

[flyinboxes]

I see. It is ok for alpa pilots to cross, but not Teamsters. That's what is pathetic, and it is not new. I have very good friends at Comair and they don't see it the way you do..

It doesn't matter how your buds at Comair "see it". What matters is how unions work, and what is legal and what is not. It is corporations maneuvering themselves to circumvent CBA's just as is happening at ABX now. It is knowing what cards you hold before you go all in. It is struck work defined. It is the company knowing how to circumvent this definition. It is knowledge. Had the DAL pilots been able to legally support the Comair strike they would have you see. It is an ALPA pilots obligation. However, corporations have structured themselves in such a way to protect themselves from the power of organized labor. Just as ABX is doing now.

 

[penguin22]

Contrast the above with IBT, where (as I understand it) the non-elected "Business Agent" makes the decision as to what is good or bad for the group.

That's how it worked when ABX was with IBT 747 many years ago. Which is one of the big reasons we went out on our own and formed IBT 1224.

IBT 1224 doesn't have a non-elected "Business Agent". We have an Executive Board, who are all pilots, and are all elected.

 

[FastHap]

That's how it worked when ABX was with IBT 747 many years ago.

Actually we were in Teamsters Local 957, in Dayton, OH. But with our on Local 1224, it's like being both in house and Teamster. The best of both worlds as it were...

 

[erichartmann]

Cfire and all,

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I have to comment anyway....

It appears (from what is posted) that you think that ALPA Nat'l is dictating the direction and efforts of the Atlas MEC. I, for one, seriously doubt that is true.

Question: Have you served in an elected capacity on your MEC (either as a LEC rep or MEC Officer)?

From my experience, the old saying is true; ALPA is a "toolbox", and a very good one at that. It is up to the individual airline's elected leadership as to whether the "toolbox" is effectively used. It is a "bottom-up" organization, where the individual pilot has a say (by voting on resolutions, etc.)

Contrast the above with IBT, where (as I understand it) the non-elected "Business Agent" makes the decision as to what is good or bad for the group.

In closing, all I can say, is that if ALPA is not "working" the way that your group feels that is should, then your issue ought to be with your MEC's inability to effectively manage all of the resources that are available to them.

Fratenally,

Skipper

My personal experience with IBT is business agents are elected, or appointed by the elected officers of the local.

IBT Local 1224, representing the pilot's at ABX, does not use "business agents". The Executive Board (elected) conducts the business of the local.

 

[erichartmann]

That's how it worked when ABX was with IBT 747 many years ago. Which is one of the big reasons we went out on our own and formed IBT 1224.

IBT 1224 doesn't have a non-elected "Business Agent". We have an Executive Board, who are all pilots, and are all elected.

Actually, we represented a very significant portion of local 957's budget but only 10% of their membership. That made it very hard for us to get anyone elected within the local.

 

[Kruger Stellman]

Teamsters suck. Looking at Atlas's payscale it seems they are way above the Teamster freight dogs.

Don't you just love a guy that has no idea wtf he is talking about. But talks and talks anyway?

Go look at the ABX pay scale JF 10 year CA $235 hr

 

[sgu]

With a good contract to support that hourly pay scale.
ALPA has chosen a team to support and it is not ATLAS. Teamsters will better represent the wants and needs of the Atlas pilot group.
www.atlasforteamsters.com
Read the latest letter from Dave Allen, it is very enlightening to say the least.

 

[AV80R]

ALPA is hands down the best pilot union around... If you happen to be in the top third of Delta or United...

or TWA... or wait, wrong thread...

 

[AV80R]

Don't you just love a guy that has no idea wtf he is talking about. But talks and talks anyway?

Go look at the ABX pay scale JF 10 year CA $235 hr

Well, I'm definitely not an ALPA fan but let's compare apples to apples, please. You're correct that their 10 year CA pay is $235/hr however since their guarantee is only 65 hours a month, if you converted it to the more standard 75 hour monthly guarantee it comes out to $204/hr.

I think when we compare pay and benefits we should always use a similar scale, in this case monthly guarantee. Btw, I've heard ABX is a great gig and I'm not picking on them, I'm just trying to "compare apples to apples."

 

[cfire]

I agree. Both Atlas or Polar would win if they got close to the equivalent of a ABX contract. Apples to apples under all the contracts.

One group just wants to make sure they come out ahead of the others instead of working together, as history has proven out. To the point of taking advantage of a piece of a questionable scope clause they hope to screw a number of guys over on the other side of the equation. That and purchasing ALPA representation at the cost of votes for the ALPA President. But that is a whole other story in itself.

 

[Whale Rider]

I think a lot of what is happening is that ALPA has gotten back on the ACMI is the enemy theme and have cut all expenditures and representation for Atlas. Considering that Prater has been unable to "taking it back" from airline management, he has decided to take it from within. Especially with US Air leaving ALPA for their own in house union. Rumors are abound with Continental pushing to leave also.

There is a difference between supporting an ALPA council and just representing them. We are barely getting the latter.

ALPA only just recently put Atlas Air on the ALPA letter head with all the other ALPA councils. Only after a push for teamsters and someone pointing it out in the normal course of rhetoric.

Even more salt into the wounds is the recent top priority of the NWA - Delta merger when Atlas - Polar has been trying to merge for the last almost three years. Both with contracts overdue by years. Of course that is due to ALPA supporting Polar (170 guys) vs Atlas (700 guys) to log jamb the merger process.

The Merger is a big Joke! There is no merger.

 

[sgu]

Not according to ALPA National and your MEC leader, (Bob H.). Have a nice day.uke:

 

[BlueCanoe]

interesting thread. i'm thinking about leaving my regional and applying to atlas.

just a couple of questions though. with this "gateway" basing and workind 17 days, the travel to and from the gateway is counted in the 17 right?


does atlas have a scope clause to protect the work?


thanks in advance

 

[dutch747]

interesting thread. i'm thinking about leaving my regional and applying to atlas.

just a couple of questions though. with this "gateway" basing and workind 17 days, the travel to and from the gateway is counted in the 17 right?


does atlas have a scope clause to protect the work?


thanks in advance

Interesting question. I think all Union Jobs have a scope clause, but it doesn't always protect the work. This may be one of the main reason why the Atlas MEC wants to switch from ALPA to Teamsters.

 

[cfire]

Looks like ALPA has finally delivered the combined seniority list to AAWW which initiates time lines for the merger.

The Atlas for Teamsters team seems to be happy about that and are not petitioning Polar crewmembers for Authorization cards to make the move to Teamsters.

In their VARS message:
http://www.atlasforteamsters.com/thefacts/vars05282008.html

Atlas for Teamsters

 

[cfire]

Ooops, that should read "are petitioning" Polar crews for Authorization cards to decertify ALPA.

Wish that edit button would stay on longer than it does.

Get a card now:

http://www.atlasforteamsters.com/docs/authorizationcard1.pdf

 

[belchfire]

Airline management, in general, HATES Unions. But they love the Teamsters. Hoffa Junior is a pussie and management lacky and backs union-busting management tactics.

tj

Based on what I have seen at two IBT airlines I would tend to agree!

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

At Atlas, U have to travel on YOUR DAYS OFF.

cliff
GRB

 

[cfire]

Originally Posted by tjsatter
Airline management, in general, HATES Unions. But they love the Teamsters. Hoffa Junior is a pussie and management lacky and backs union-busting management tactics.

tj

Has Hoffa allowed egregious amounts of money for one union (Polar 170 members) on grievances that the requested remedy is to take flying jobs away again from a brother union (Atlas at 600 members)? Has he cut the union budget to the bone of the same brother union in favor of the other one that voted for him? Has he log jambed a merger initiated by a previous union president because the favored union council doesn't like it now - but it was great when it was a merger into Polar, while at the same time fast tracks the NWA-Delta merger?

I could go on. It appears ALPA is happy to have our dues money, but wants us at the back of the bus with all the rest of the unworthy ACMI and "B" carrier union brothers.

With Teamsters, we will have more control of the money and where it goes for what purpose.

I wouldn't say that Hoffa is kissing managements posterior. The Railway Labor Act ties the hands of everyone. I have been Teamsters before and ALPA. Both unions just can't stand up and strike when a company finds the holes in your contract. That is in the RLA and I have intimate knowledge of that. Exposed to it constantly and referred to it constantly by ALPA attorneys as to why we can't do something to make a company stop the abuse. ALPA actually likes referring to it so that they don't have to spend money on your grievances unless you are Polar in which you get a free hand of spending money on it and outside attorney's.

My big problem is when union national officers participate in dismantling and sabotage of a brother union council because of influence purchased with a small number of votes for those elected officers.

 

[belchfire]

cfire, I really wish you the best of luck whatever happens. The RLA is a POS and the "fly it then grieve it" BS has got to stop-regardless of the union involved.

Before you get too much inspired by the IBT's leadership you need to understand a few things. I would first really study the differences between the old and some of the recently negotiated contracts by the Teamsters.

None of them that I am aware of represent a real gain in income when inflation is considered and I'm beginning to think that mine is going to end up being a net loss.

 

[SIGman]

I'm interested in pursuing a job at Atlas. Is anyone aware of current CBA floating around the internet that I can look at?

Cheers,
D

 

[SIGman]

Does Atlas pay structure include any sort of duty/trip rigs?

 

[DC8CRIVER]

Don't you just love a guy that has no idea wtf he is talking about. But talks and talks anyway?

Go look at the ABX pay scale JF 10 year CA $235 hr

Actually KS, ABX 1224 voted to take the big one up the tailpipe and win a one group race to the bottom. With the signing of the new ABX/DHL deal, they have elected to let ATSG rape them to the tune of over $80/hr (including work rule changes). Their top pay is now around the ATI scale at $160/hr for top CA pay.

That and they have about 430 guys furloughed...

Teamsters, ya know...

 

[cfire]

I heard it was part of the decertification of the IBT by ATI and their subsequent move to ALPA. That move due to the shenanigans with local 747 officials and ATI union officials not getting part of their illegal deal cutting under 747 President Sewall when IBT International cleaned out the house at 747 when it was discovered. I believe those local 747 ex-officials are under federal investigation now.

The ATI move has something about ALPA's President Prater promising a concessionary contract if management ATSG moved all the flying over to ATI. ATI decertified IBT and moved to ALPA and the ATSG signed the new ALPA concessionary contract deal two weeks after the decertification. Looks like the concessionary contract held while ATSG reneged on moving all the A/C over to ATI. Love how Prater doesn't mind whipsawing groups against each other. Probably why so many have left ALPA.

 

[hvydriver]

I heard it was part of the decertification of the IBT by ATI and their subsequent move to ALPA. That move due to the shenanigans with local 747 officials and ATI union officials not getting part of their illegal deal cutting under 747 President Sewall when IBT International cleaned out the house at 747 when it was discovered. I believe those local 747 ex-officials are under federal investigation now.

The ATI move has something about ALPA's President Prater promising a concessionary contract if management ATSG moved all the flying over to ATI. ATI decertified IBT and moved to ALPA and the ATSG signed the new ALPA concessionary contract deal two weeks after the decertification. Looks like the concessionary contract held while ATSG reneged on moving all the A/C over to ATI. Love how Prater doesn't mind whipsawing groups against each other. Probably why so many have left ALPA.

Cfire, you are completely mistaken. I have a lot of beefs with ALPA, but the one thing they won't do is engage in predatory negotiations. Witness my former company Astar holding at our old negotiated rates. There are no talks underway there, and we know we are dead because of it. (I've already left there, btw.) The only group that has pursued concessions is the 1224. And they gave away the store, for no reason. DHL had no where else to go for lift. They could have kept the flying and their old pay rates. But they chose to drop their pay to ATI scales, because "it's a whole new ACMI world out there". Complete and utter BS. I am most likely not going to contribute any further to this thread because I'm retired now, but I could not stand by and let such a gross misrepresentation of the facts stand uncorrected. Let the spin doctors of the 1224 have their go at it now. Hvy, out.

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

Cfire, you are completely mistaken. I have a lot of beefs with ALPA, but the one thing they won't do is engage in predatory negotiations. Witness my former company Astar holding at our old negotiated rates. There are no talks underway there, and we know we are dead because of it. (I've already left there, btw.) The only group that has pursued concessions is the 1224. And they gave away the store, for no reason. DHL had no where else to go for lift. They could have kept the flying and their old pay rates. But they chose to drop their pay to ATI scales, because "it's a whole new ACMI world out there". Complete and utter BS. I am most likely not going to contribute any further to this thread because I'm retired now, but I could not stand by and let such a gross misrepresentation of the facts stand uncorrected. Let the spin doctors of the 1224 have their go at it now. Hvy, out.

Second item first. You're correct about the capitulation of 1224. With the bodies on the street vastly outnumbering those remaining on property the dynamics of a ransomed severance package came into play. The vote to ratify primarily became a contest between severance for those no longer working verses QOL life for those who were. The outcome is understandable; the fact that a vote was allowed to take place within this particular framework isn't.

I've nothing to spin. I would have preferred to shut the place down and have DHL form a bicycle squad to deliver their freight via the interstate system (very entrepreneurial, there'd probably be free money from Washington to help get them pedaling) rather than offer the concessions which now form our CBA. We at ABX through 1224 did control the lift, and the reaction of DHL over Christmas to a perceived threat to their system indicates that a greater willingness during negotiation to use lift as leverage would have yielded dividends. It must be said though that even our sadly reduced circumstances continue to top those of ATI with our captain's salary having a base of $160K per year - not the $160 an hour as has previously been mis-posted.

As for your first comment about the demise of Astar: more to do I think with flying junk ( ref: airframes not cargo) than the upright moral integrity of a 'no compromise no concession' bargaining stance. When the price of fuel goes back up, as it inevitably will, the operating costs of aged 1990's workhorses will render them economically obsolete.

 

[hvydriver]

As for your first comment about the demise of Astar: more to do I think with flying junk ( ref: airframes not cargo) than the upright moral integrity of a 'no compromise no concession' bargaining stance. When the price of fuel goes back up, as it inevitably will, the operating costs of aged 1990's workhorses will render them economically obsolete.

I don't think it did. Astar and DHL had several talks about refleeting over the past few years. It always involved DHL saying they would do that for us but we would have to "realign our costs". Neither Dasburg nor ALPA wanted to play that game with the Germans.

 

[nitefr8dog]

I don't think it did. Astar and DHL had several talks about refleeting over the past few years. It always involved DHL saying they would do that for us but we would have to "realign our costs". Neither Dasburg nor ALPA wanted to play that game with the Germans.

Hvy, you can drink the coolaid if you want but any chance of refleeting was never really an option. Spending 100s of millions of dollars to refleet ASTAR for use in a market losing 100s of millions of dollars was never going to happen. ALPA/ ASTAR got sucked in by DHL/John D. to sign a contract, drop a law suit.... and dimantle an airline.

 

[nitefr8dog]

Cfire, you are completely mistaken. I have a lot of beefs with ALPA, but the one thing they won't do is engage in predatory negotiations. Witness my former company Astar holding at our old negotiated rates. There are no talks underway there, and we know we are dead because of it. (I've already left there, btw.) The only group that has pursued concessions is the 1224. And they gave away the store, for no reason. DHL had no where else to go for lift. They could have kept the flying and their old pay rates. But they chose to drop their pay to ATI scales, because "it's a whole new ACMI world out there". Complete and utter BS. I am most likely not going to contribute any further to this thread because I'm retired now, but I could not stand by and let such a gross misrepresentation of the facts stand uncorrected. Let the spin doctors of the 1224 have their go at it now. Hvy, out.

"No where to go for lift"! This after ATSG/ABX started giving aircraft and flying to sister companies working for scab wages! You have not been paying attention. Cappy and ATI have 757/767 operating on their certificates. Hete moves the aircraft and flying to those carriers and ABX goes away. But at least while standing in the unemployment line I could say no concessions!