"ATC explain yourself, over"

[Big Beer Belly]

.....

 

[gkrangers]

I don't think flying direct constitutes free flight. I bet the UPS pilots are still following orders from ATC..

 

[SSDD]

A controlled experiment involving one company flying mostly into their hubs is one thing, when you try to include every airline and commercial operators, that will be something else.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

.....

 

[Hold West]

You seem like a pretty good guy, but you flatter yourself that efficient arrival operations could not be conducted with far less intrusion by Air Traffic Coordinators. In the USAF it was not uncommon to have 14 T-38's flown by STUDENT pilots (all doing 300 kts) in the overhead and extended pattern to the same runway simultaneously ... and all being minimally "de-conflicted" by another (gasp!) pilot ... not an ATC "specialist".

You do realize there are many aircraft operating across oceans and in various parts of the world that DO NOT communicate with ANYONE (including the tanker(s) they're rendezvousing with)... let alone an FAA certified ATC specialist and yet they successfully complete their missions "quietly" every day.

As I mentioned in my previous post, someone (a UPS pilot ... gasp! ) began to think ever so slightly "out of the box" and came up with a continuous idle VNAV/LNAV arrival into SDF from cruise altitude to the FAF. Bottom line, more aircraft arrive within a shorter time frame, burn less fuel, and produce less noise than previous ATC "specialist" directed speed up, slow down, extended 30 mi. finals.

Beer Belly,

You need to get out of the military and into the much larger world of civilian flying - well, when you "flight control manipulation technicians" and "meat autopilots" are RIFed and replaced by UAVs, you'll find out (see I can denigrate your role, too). Or when the AF buys Airbus tankers that override your inputs when you're f-ing up. <------just kidding, folks. Well, kinda.

Each situation you described above involves similar type aircraft, all flying for the same company, all flying carefully choreographed procedures where everyone knows their role and everyone plays the game. All your students queuing up to land in their T-38s work just fine, because if they f-up and cut each other off, they will mess up their chances of passing the program big time. Ever been on an aircraft carrier? I have. Things work there as well as they do because everyone plays the game to the same rules to a very tight standard. UPS can do their thing because they are vampires - they hub in the middle of the night with no other traffic to contend with.

Out in the larger world, it does not work that way. Go down and read the "regionals" topic. They're all out to cut each other's throat. You think they're going to play nice? "No, Mesa, you go ahead and land, I'll wait out here". Baloney! And the thing is, I've seen it. My favorite was the DC-9 driver who knew, just knew he could beat the ATR-42 I told him he would be following. He canceled IFR, aimed at the numbers, and dived for it. And arrived on a three mile right base with a 120 knot overtake on the ATR-42, which was on a two mile final. Sorry, you lose. Crank it back out and fly a downwind for a while. And that was only two airplanes. Let's throw a Cherokee, a Baron with a busted transponder and a P-3 that wants multiple ILSes into mix. And, oh, there's a Lifeguard Kingair and couple of 737s. It'd sound like a Prisoner rerun if you left them to their own devices:

"I am Number 2."
"Who is number 1?"
"You are Number 6."

Try this one: uncontrolled airport near the Canadian border. Aircraft calls for IFR clearance, gets it. #2 calls, told to standby until #1 departs. #2 says, "Hey, we're at the runway, he's behind us, we are #1". Controller says have him come up on frequency so I can cancel his release. A few minutes pass, and #3 calls for clearance. Controller says stand by, waiting on the first two to call back. #3 says "I think it will be a while, they are out of the aircraft fist fighting on the taxiway". True story. I've got lots more.

So while your ideal world would be nice, it ain't gonna happen. Not in your lifetime, not in mine. So we'd better all get along, because it is the way it's going to be for a while.

 

[kevdog]

The main time I've seen guys on approach (here at SWA) ask is when we are close/high to the airport. We want to know if ATC has a reason to have us at 8000 feet as we pass overhead the runway going the wrong way, maybe because there is a bunch of traffic in front of us. Whereas if we are overhead at 8000 and are number one, we can start throwing down the gear and plan ourselves a visual to the runway.

It is called situational awareness and when either pilots or controllers play "I have a secret" we all end up with less of a picture than we want. (see thread about declaring an emergency. Controllers probably would prefer us to declare an emergency if we want emergency handling. Well, pilots want to be able to plan min fuel/min time approaches and we can't do that if we are kept in the dark about our sequence)

This happens to me often flying into MIA from the east and landing east. Sometimes the controller is just going to slam you in and sometimes they are sequencing you. If the radios aren't cluttered, what's the problem with asking? It paints the picture better and also asks what can we expect.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Beer Belly,

You need to get out of the military and into the much larger world of civilian flying - well, when you "flight control manipulation technicians" and "meat autopilots" are RIFed and replaced by UAVs, you'll find out (see I can denigrate your role, too). Or when the AF buys Airbus tankers that override your inputs when you're f-ing up. <------just kidding, folks. Well, kinda.

[/QUOTE

Hey boy wonder behind the scope... how many years have you put in serving your country? Oh never mind ... you wouldn't have a clue what our fine young military men/women do every day in the service of this great country. Hint: it involves a hell of a lot more RISK than falling off your ATC stool!

BBB

 

[j41driver]

What I am saying, and listen up, is that it is my job to tell you what to expect in a meaningful fashion to allow you to make your plan. Just "You're number 7" does not accomplish that, and contains no useful information. What is useful, and this is what I get from jumpseat rides long ago, is information like "expect a turn on the localizer at about 12 miles, you'll be following a Caravan". Do you care about the 2 737s and the Dash 8 landing ahead of the Caravan? I'll bet you are more interested in how many flying miles you can plan on to the airport...

Maybe I'm the only one but I think he's right...I could care less how many airplanes are on the LOC in front of me but if I know that I'll get turned on at 12 miles out then I have all the info I need. Who cares if there are 2 or 4 airplanes in front of you? 12 miles out is 12 miles out.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Maybe I'm the only one but I think he's right...I could care less how many airplanes are on the LOC in front of me but if I know that I'll get turned on at 12 miles out then I have all the info I need. Who cares if there are 2 or 4 airplanes in front of you? 12 miles out is 12 miles out.

j41,

Problem is "Hold" is full of crap. In 20+ years of flying military/121 NEVER have I been told how many miles I can expect to be turned to a base. His is purely an "academic" answer ... truth is it NEVER happens in the real world. Thus, you have numerous guys ALL contradicting him and expressing the same thought. I'd rather be told more information in order to plan an efficient descent/arrival than kept in the dark (which is standard operating procedure for most primadonna ATC "specialists".) These guys coordinate traffic ... nothing more.

We need Reagan to slap the big egos down again! :smash:

BBB

 

[kevdog]

j41,
We need Reagan to slap the big egos down again! :smash:

BBB

If only we had a leader right now.