"ATC explain yourself, over"

[Hold West]

You need to come ride my jump seat. "What's my sequence" both outbound and inbound is going to be very common. I know you may not like it but get used to it. It allows us to plan a min-fuel burn arrival. There is talk at my airline about putting in the FOM and emphasizing it in training. BTW putting it in the FOM with an FAA sign off makes it part of the approved operating procedure.

"What does it tell me?" It tells me how to configure and how fast to fly if I am not already assigned a speed.

I'd love to come sit in your jump seat - the FAA won't let me, hasn't since 9/11, and I don't think we ever will again. Too bad, I learned something everytime I went, and we have a whole crop of new controllers now that never have and never will have that experience, and I think it will show more and more as time passes. But I digress.

"Going to be very common"? I've been hearing that same question for 22 years now. Still as pointless now as it was then. If it goes in your FOM it will become even more pointless. Guys will just start telling everyone that checks in "you're number 7".

What I am saying, and listen up, is that it is my job to tell you what to expect in a meaningful fashion to allow you to make your plan. Just "You're number 7" does not accomplish that, and contains no useful information. What is useful, and this is what I get from jumpseat rides long ago, is information like "expect a turn on the localizer at about 12 miles, you'll be following a Caravan". Do you care about the 2 737s and the Dash 8 landing ahead of the Caravan? I'll bet you are more interested in how many flying miles you can plan on to the airport, and if you're following fast or slow traffic. I guess if you all prefer, I could just say "you're number 5" in the above situation, but again, please tell me how less information is an advantage.

 

[Hold West]

Funny how everything seems to go smoother when ATC's role is substantially diminished.

I'm praying for that day to come as much as you are. In fact, I can't wait until I can just lean back when there's about six of you all diving for the end of the runway at the same time, and just say, good luck! Then watch the s-turns, 360s and go arounds.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I'm praying for that day to come as much as you are. In fact, I can't wait until I can just lean back when there's about six of you all diving for the end of the runway at the same time, and just say, good luck! Then watch the s-turns, 360s and go arounds.

Exactly.....cats and dogs living together....mass insanity!

 

[Flyerjosh]

Generally, the only time that i'm really curious to know my sequence is when I'm waiting in line for taxi (gate hold/deice control) or departure/takeoff (especially when the sequence isn't obvious due to different fixes like in ORD). This info I can use to plan second engine startup, engine shutdown, and passenger briefings.

 

[rjacobs]

In the jet environment the only time I give a rats ass is if I am number 2 and need to look for the traffic so I can take a visual instead of getting vector out another mile or two and then cleared for the approach. But at the same time, I was told last week "your number 1 for the airport, reduce speed to 210 kts." Then he was telling everybody behind me do not exceed 210 for spacing, 200 for spacing, etc... I was like WTFO let me do 240 and then you dont have to slow down the next 10 airplanes for spacing since im number one. That just made no sense to me.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

I'm praying for that day to come as much as you are. In fact, I can't wait until I can just lean back when there's about six of you all diving for the end of the runway at the same time, and just say, good luck! Then watch the s-turns, 360s and go arounds.

Hold,

You seem like a pretty good guy, but you flatter yourself that efficient arrival operations could not be conducted with far less intrusion by Air Traffic Coordinators. In the USAF it was not uncommon to have 14 T-38's flown by STUDENT pilots (all doing 300 kts) in the overhead and extended pattern to the same runway simultaneously ... and all being minimally "de-conflicted" by another (gasp!) pilot ... not an ATC "specialist".

You do realize there are many aircraft operating across oceans and in various parts of the world that DO NOT communicate with ANYONE (including the tanker(s) they're rendezvousing with)... let alone an FAA certified ATC specialist and yet they successfully complete their missions "quietly" every day.

As I mentioned in my previous post, someone (a UPS pilot ... gasp! ) began to think ever so slightly "out of the box" and came up with a continuous idle VNAV/LNAV arrival into SDF from cruise altitude to the FAF. Bottom line, more aircraft arrive within a shorter time frame, burn less fuel, and produce less noise than previous ATC "specialist" directed speed up, slow down, extended 30 mi. finals.

I agree with you that I can't wait for the day you all are significantly removed from the coordination picture! Psst, it's called "free flight" (thanks to ADS-B) and it's coming. Perhaps you've read about it?

Hold, you seem like one of the good guys in ATC so my rant is not aimed at you personally. Just as UAV/UCAV is shaping modern warfare, so too will computers and high-speed datalink re-shape the rules and procedures we clumsily follow in the skies today. (Like it or not, BOTH of our hands-on duties are going to be substantially diminished in the future.)

BBB

 

[firstthird]

The main time I've seen guys on approach (here at SWA) ask is when we are close/high to the airport. We want to know if ATC has a reason to have us at 8000 feet as we pass overhead the runway going the wrong way, maybe because there is a bunch of traffic in front of us. Whereas if we are overhead at 8000 and are number one, we can start throwing down the gear and plan ourselves a visual to the runway.

It is called situational awareness and when either pilots or controllers play "I have a secret" we all end up with less of a picture than we want. (see thread about declaring an emergency. Controllers probably would prefer us to declare an emergency if we want emergency handling. Well, pilots want to be able to plan min fuel/min time approaches and we can't do that if we are kept in the dark about our sequence)

 

[FL420]

What is meaningful is for me to tell you what to expect

Maybe "what's my sequence" is pilot shorthand for "tell me what to expect." On the very rare occasions I use it, that's the information I'm looking for.

I may see a lot of airplanes out in front of me, see them on the TCAS and hear them on the radio. All this information contributes to my SA and leads me to form expectations as to when and where to start configuring my aircraft. What I need to know is if those expectations coincide with the controllers. On the one hand I am trying to save fuel and give the PAX a smooth ride. OTOH, I am trying to be prepared, speed and configuration-wise, in case I get "slam dunked." It happens much more often than it should and can scare the PAX and raise the risk factor when it happens.

if it's out of the ordinary.

Controllers work the same airspace, airport(s) and procedures every day, day after day. Pilots, OTOH, work different airports and procedures all over the country and sometimes, all over the world. What's ordinary to you is rarely ordinary to us.

 

[flx757]

I agree with you that I can't wait for the day you all are significantly removed from the coordination picture! Psst, it's called "free flight" (thanks to ADS-B) and it's coming. Perhaps you've read about it?


BBB

"Free flight". Yeah, I've read about it. Beginning at least 15 years ago. They said "it's coming". I'm still waiting. And I bet I'll be waiting long after I've left this business.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Since we're on a similar topic....some folks seem to feel that they should always be able to depart #1, climb straight to cruise altitude, fly their exact routing at normal speed, descend and land #1 without any sort of delay. It seems that they feel as though it is the ATCer's job to make sure that their flight turns out as I described above. I have flown with these types before, and their constant b!tching about delays gets on my nerves a hell of a lot more than the delays themselves. If you're one of these that gets all pissy because there are 12 airplanes in front of you to land at a major airport, calm the hell down already. It gets old. Okay, vent over.

As for the topic, one may ask for the sequence just for planning and situational awareness purposes. I have asked that myself in the past.