Ata

[ATA73Pilot]

Moose,

As long as management refuses to participate, through their own salary givebacks, in the saving of ATA from bankruptcy...then they get a resounding "NO" vote from me.

Their excuse that they particpated in pay freezes two years ago holds absolutely no water. Are we, or are we not dealing with imminent financial ruin? Isn't that why they are asking for your salary? If the situation is as dire as has been "sold" to this pilot group, then at the very least upper-level management should be included in the same solution because every resource available should be tapped to keep us out of bankruptcy court.

It can be argued that the previous two years are and were a concessionary two years for the pilot group. This contract was acccepted on that basis because we would be rewarded on the back-end during the last two years for the shortcomings of the first two.

Now we are being asked to hand 40mil. back to the same people who brought us to this precipice in the first place.

It's like handing a new credit card to someone who's already maxed out their other card so they can continue to spend unchallanged and unchecked.

The worst part is that the pilot group is all too willing to hand this money over.

 

[tz800ca]

If the union did not negotiate this TA and/or the members do not ratify this TA, then isn't bankruptcy in the near future? I agree with ATA73PILOT's assessment of management, but I think the union is happy to try to keep the company going. Of course all want to make "industry standard pay", but what is that now days with AA talking a 24% cut, Delta getting ready to take some cut, USAir about to go out of business, UAL has taken some cut. I think the better answer is what does the membership think is fair pay and benefits versus what others are doing. And like me, if the pay and benefits are not worth it, then I wouldn't do it. Believe me, I want to see ATA thrive for all involved. Good luck to all the crewmembers on this tough issue and tough vote.

NO, Bankruptcy is not automatically in the future. The CBA we are currently working under (before negotiations) is already concessionary. Of the majors, AA 737NG Capt of 6 years gets $127.15/hr when adjusted for the lower guarantee vs. the same ATA pilot getting $132.97 at current rates. Americans current rates on the NG are THE lowest in the industry with ATA #2 from the bottom. Here is a link to a chart I threw together to illustrate.



http://webpages.charter.net/ata/Pay.htm



Just compare ATAs pay rates to Americans concessionary package; it is very similar to ours.



What it boils down to is that our Management team is either very savvy or has failed and $42.5 million over 2 or 3 years will not make one bit of difference if we stay out of BK. Either way the pilot group looses. I would rather live under our current CBA and let nature take its course. I will vote NO.

 

[jobear]

Are the pay consessions tied to profitablity? Looking at the charts posted by TZ I really don't see alota wiggle room for the ATA pilots. American's concessed rates are lower but how many NG's does AA fly? And are they tied to any other economic factors? Sorry for all the questions.

Jobear

 

[MooseTrax]

Like I said, I hope you guys at ATA vote for what you believe is right. If that is a yes or no makes no difference to me. At some point enough is enough, and it sounds like you guys are there with the pay issue. I agree $40M for the next couple years doesn't seem like much in the big scheme of things, and I too have a big problem with companies who lay off folks and make them take pay cuts when the top level management continues to make their salaries. If the company needs funds, then it needs to be concessionary all the way around, and the first place to start is at the top......I think it's called leadership by example. Could you imagine if a CEO came out and said they were taking 25% pay cuts at the managment level and looked to the workforce to give something. Now that will be the day! The whole pay issue is a sticky situation across the industry. Good luck. We will all be waiting for the results at ATA.

 

[atafan]

Of course all want to make "industry standard pay", but what is that now days with AA talking a 24% cut, Delta getting ready to take some cut, USAir about to go out of business, UAL has taken some cut. I think the better answer is what does the membership think is fair pay and benefits versus what others are doing.

This attitude kills me. When we were negotiating our current contract we used UAL, AA and others as our current "Industry Standard", this is where we wanted to go. Many said how can you even use these airlines for comparison. Now, the times have changed and so have the LCC's, JetBlue was just starting out when we started negotiating and AirTran was still fighting back. Why would you want to compare yourself or even consider troubled airlines when trying to negotiate pay?

You must negotiate for as much as you can get, by using other airlines as a starting point a bar is set. If ATA settles for something below the bar it will affect all other future negotiations for our peers, possibly bringing the bar down further impacting our future earnings.

IMHO

 

[balls deep340]

Any word on delivery dates for these 717s?

 

[njcapt]

Any word on delivery dates for these 717s?

OK. We need to get our collective feces consolidated here.

There is no deal for a new aircraft type at ATA. None. Not even sorta-maybe.

Do I have everybody's attention now?

One of the reasons that the company's allegedly-necessary concession package requested of the pilot group is being met with such vitriolic scorn is that there is no existing deal for new aircraft. Ergo, no increase in fleet size, no rapid increase in upgrades, and no aggregate increase in ATA pilots farting through silk. Just a two year pay freeze... worth $6M the first year, $22M the second and third years to the company. Not really big bucks in the grand scheme of things. So...

Could ATA management just be playing Boeing, Airbus, and Embraer off one another to get the best deal?

Maybe.

Could Boeing (who, by all accounts brought a sweetheart 717 deal to ATA management on a silver platter) have gotten tired of waiting to be asked to dance, and simply yanked the whole thing?

Maybe.

Could this 717 deal simply be a ruse in order to get the pilot group to, once again, fund management's inept running of the airline?

Maybe.

Could monkeys fly out of my butt?

You get the picture.

I'm sure that within several hours of the announcement of a concrete deal for new aircraft the news will be posted (repeatedly, and repetitively) here on the forum. Until then it is a waiting game. I plan to drink beer while I wait, you folks can do what you want.
​

 

[balls deep340]

Just simmer down now. Siimmmmmmmmmmmer down.


Any word on possible # of 717 the company is shooting for?

 

[Dart]

Njcapt....If no deal on aircraft.....why the 100 seat payscale? just a question

 

[ATA73Pilot]

As my colleague NJCapt states:

There is no official deal for a new aircraft. But there have been discussions, presentations, and negotiations for a 100-seat payrate. The company has said it needs 100 seaters to compete and expand.

Unfortunately many pilots have intertwined (sp?) the talks for concessions with the discussion on a new fleet type.

Just as Bush and Co. have mentioned the words terrorist, 9/11, and Iraq enough times in the same sentence that the majority of Americans believe that Iraq had something to do with 9/11....

...the company has uttered "concessions" and "new airplane" in the same breath that most pilots here believe it will take giving in to concessions to obtain the new aircraft type.

Pretty smart on the company's part to create a relationship between the two.

Unfortunately, most here don't make the distinction between the two issues. They feel if they vote down the concessions that the company will then be unable to purchase the new fleet type and ergo be unable to compete in the LCC marketplace. Which if you take to it's furthest misguided conclusion, that would mean the demise of ATA.

So this new concession agreement will pass with a majority. And ATA will get the new airplanes. And the pilots here will once again feel like they "saved" the company in it's time of need.

 

[MooseTrax]

I know that there is no done deal, but a few weeks back your MEC announcement slipped and instead of saying "100 seat aircraft" like he had been for several weeks, used the phrase "717" twice in the same announcement. I agree that the company is probably playing all three, and I hope they are because I would, to get the best deal, but my guess is that the company would like to have more Boeings.

ATA73PILOT--I agree with you on this one, how did the company tie both of these issues together? I have thought since day one that the concessions should be one issue and a 100 seat pay rate another. And if njcapt numbers are right, $6M first year and $22M the next, that isn't a drop in the bucket in relation to acquiring more aircraft.

 

[njcapt]

Just simmer down now. Siimmmmmmmmmmmer down.


Any word on possible # of 717 the company is shooting for?

I'm totally chillin'. However, you can't believe the conjecture that is going on at the ATA pilots' web site. A large number of guys have already spent their first Captain paycheck from an aircraft that is not only not on the property, but without even a handshake agreement for their acquisition.

I don't know where I stand on the concessions (and I plan on reserving judgement until the union gets the opportunity to sell me on the deal when the roadshows start in a week or so), but I'm sure not taking the bait of alleged new aircraft just to get stung by the barbed hook of a two year pay freeze.

I'm on my fifth airline, and my main career goal is to willingly retire from the one I'm at now. Whether this concession LOA will have any effect on my goal remains to be seen.

 

[mt2]

This just in.....

A rumor going around says the 737 guys will not snap back to 2002 contract rates in 2007, instead getting $6-7 an hour less. This while 757 and L1011 guys get more in the snap back. 737 crews financing 757/L1011 raises ?? This will seriously hamper the ability of the Union to get this agreement to pass.

Can't wait to read it all.

 

[tz800ca]

Really........

So this new concession agreement will pass with a majority. And ATA will get the new airplanes. And the pilots here will once again feel like they "saved" the company in it's time of need.

Let me know where you bought that crystal ball, I need a new one. I really hope that you meant that tongue and cheek, if not, get a life.

I would probably wait and read it before making a statement like that. Read carefully, it may not be all it is cracked up to be.......

 

[tz800ca]

This Just In......

MEC VOTED CONCESSIONARY AGREEMENT DOWN!

FOR 1 AGAINST 7