ASA training dept. rumor

[ASACRJFlyer]

That's all Comair wanted...That's all ACA wanted...That's all Horizon wanted.....See a trend?

Oh no! We should all cower in a corner and just be happy with whatever our benevolent management will find in their hearts to give us! Thank you, Sir, may I have another?:bawling:

Joe, you've got to be kidding. If it were up to you, we would all work for free to keep the company competitive so we could have a job.

Thank God there have been pilots who have come before you who actually had a pair a demanded fair contracts because I hate to think what this industry would be like if people like you had your way.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Oh no! We should all cower in a corner and just be happy with whatever our benevolent management will find in their hearts to give us! Thank you, Sir, may I have another?:bawling:

Joe, you've got to be kidding. If it were up to you, we would all work for free to keep the company competitive so we could have a job.

Thank God there have been pilots who have come before you who actually had a pair a demanded fair contracts because I hate to think what this industry would be like if people like you had your way.

Ahhh...The ASA village idiot speaks...

The CMR pilots had a pair and demanded fair contracts...Many others have...Despite this, the industry now pays less than half it did 20 years ago...Why is that Mr Expert? How come these big balled pilots haven't been able to protect our pay and work rules? Go ahead big talker and explain to us cowering in the corner why these people haven't been able to stop the slide...Go ahead, I'm all ears....

 

[ASACRJFlyer]

Ahhh...The ASA village idiot speaks...

The CMR pilots had a pair and demanded fair contracts...Many others have...Despite this, the industry now pays less than half it did 20 years ago...Why is that Mr Expert? How come these big balled pilots haven't been able to protect our pay and work rules? Go ahead big talker and explain to us cowering in the corner why these people haven't been able to stop the slide...Go ahead, I'm all ears....

The reason pilots haven't been able to stop the slide is because there has always been an ample supply of new pilots willing to do anything to get that quick upgrade and "magic 1,000" in PIC. Things are about to change as that supply is drying up due to training costs, tight credit and the degradation of this career to something few folks are willing to do for the time and money it takes. The Majors will never have a shortage of pilots but the regionals will and that is why you feel threatened.

Let's face it, you've made your bed at a regional and you don't want that regional to fail so you're willing to sell your soul (and everyone else's) to keep it afloat. You probably couldn't get hired at a major so now you're just a bitter 50 seat RJ captain hoping not to end up like the Comair folks back in the right seat after 20 years.

...and by the way, I'd rather be the village idiot than management's two bit whore.

 

[EngineThunder]

The reason pilots haven't been able to stop the slide is because there has always been an ample supply of new pilots willing to do anything to get that quick upgrade and "magic 1,000" in PIC. Things are about to change as that supply is drying up due to training costs, tight credit and the degradation of this career to something few folks are willing to do for the time and money it takes. The Majors will never have a shortage of pilots but the regionals will and that is why you feel threatened.

Let's face it, you've made your bed at a regional and you don't want that regional to fail so you're willing to sell your soul (and everyone else's) to keep it afloat. You probably couldn't get hired at a major so now you're just a bitter 50 seat RJ captain hoping not to end up like the Comair folks back in the right seat after 20 years.

...and by the way, I'd rather be the village idiot than management's two bit whore.

That sums of Joe Merchant. If it wasn't for PFT, he would be working at Walmart.

 

[Varmint]

Ahhh...The ASA village idiot speaks...

What does that make you?

By the way....do you really have a boat named "School Boy Heart"?

 

[Freebrd]

That sums of Joe Merchant. If it wasn't for PFT, he would be working at Walmart.

wasn't Joe reimbursed for that after he got that in our contract years ago when he was on the Neg Comm

 

[79%N1]

Just curious. Where does a company get the money to pay huge contract gains when they are basically breaking even? I'm not saying I don't want it, or don't think we don't deserve it......but where do they get it? The basic problem is, they can't just charge Delta/UAL more money, because the rates are set. So, where does the money come from?

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

Just curious. Where does a company get the money to pay huge contract gains when they are basically breaking even? I'm not saying I don't want it, or don't think we don't deserve it......but where do they get it? The basic problem is, they can't just charge Delta/UAL more money, because the rates are set. So, where does the money come from?

SKYW said they would increase their income substantially (I don't have the number offhand) when they finalize the XJT ASA merger. That would be a place to get a chunk for ourselves. Inc has a lot of cash in the bank... Maybe they could get rid of some the the HR that is responsible for all they touchy feely programs ASA has..... They bought us knowing full well what we cost, and should have future plans other than slash from the bottom to add to their bottom line. I'm not asking for a 200% raise, but a little bump and improvements across the board in work rules (fine tune xjt's we have good work rules), retirement etc isn't asking too much. And add any good asa contract areas.

 

[ohplease!]

Just curious. Where does a company get the money to pay huge contract gains when they are basically breaking even? I'm not saying I don't want it, or don't think we don't deserve it......but where do they get it? The basic problem is, they can't just charge Delta/UAL more money, because the rates are set. So, where does the money come from?

1. fewer idiotic management decisions
2. fewer idiotic staffing decisions by scheduling
3. fewer idiotic decisions by maintenance parts management


1= stop pissing off the people directly responsible for making this "well oiled machine" operate....piss off the pilots and mechanics and count on getting NO help when the wheels come off as they so often do.

2= see #1

3= fix the f'n planes! damn.....

 

[ohplease!]

SKYW said they would increase their income substantially (I don't have the number offhand) when they finalize the XJT ASA merger. That would be a place to get a chunk for ourselves. Inc has a lot of cash in the bank... Maybe they could get rid of some the the HR that is responsible for all they touchy feely programs ASA has..... They bought us knowing full well what we cost, and should have future plans other than slash from the bottom to add to their bottom line. I'm not asking for a 200% raise, but a little bump and improvements across the board in work rules (fine tune xjt's we have good work rules), retirement etc isn't asking too much. And add any good asa contract areas.

take PBS...please somebody take this debacle, uhhh, I mean AWESOME bidding system.

 

[aa30]

At Express, we've seen 200% pay offered to pick up open time for the better part of the year. I'd say that's a great place to start "looking" for some money to fund a pay increase. Frankly, I think it's a great place to start the negotiations. Another place? How about all the management bonu$e$? How about all the duplicated middle-management positions on the Express side?

 

[PBRstreetgang]

As long as that's pre-concession pay plus an additional 6+% raise and no pbs... and other various improvements...... I'm with you. Everyone here will have a shot at the majors over the next 5-7 years I think. Make the move when you can gentlemen.

Ding,
Winnah, the worst, most expensive thing you can do to Brad is leave, he hates large scale training costs like he hates the sun, garlic, silver, and holy water all put together, never mind wood stakes...

 

[Baronman]

If Skywest Inc is so worried about costs, wouldn't there be significant savings in merging Skywest Airlines and ASA? Isn't that the stated benefit of merging ASA and XJT? And the latter don't even have a common fleet type.

ASA and Skywest, all with Bombadier products should have plenty of commonality that would save millions.

My conclusion, they're not hurting that bad yet....But they'll be happy to nickle and dime the hell out of our combined contract.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

If Skywest Inc is so worried about costs, wouldn't there be significant savings in merging Skywest Airlines and ASA? Isn't that the stated benefit of merging ASA and XJT? And the latter don't even have a common fleet type.

ASA and Skywest, all with Bombadier products should have plenty of commonality that would save millions.

My conclusion, they're not hurting that bad yet....But they'll be happy to nickle and dime the hell out of our combined contract.

You won't like the answer. Inc bought ASA because they thought they could make money, they now realize that it isn't quite as easy as they thought, they are having to work at squeezing blood from your stone, but they will continue because they are determined. DAL wanted to get away from owning multiple airlines and Inc was their favorite non union carrier to relieve them of that burden. If DAL decides that they don't want a whole bunch of 50 seaters, how do you think they would get rid of them? Do you think that it is a coincidence that Inc bought 2 carriers that were the some of the largest 50 seat operators for their respective partners. Inc is rabid, foaming at the mouth anti-unionites, and if momma D or papa UCon said we don't want those pesky, expensive gas guzzling 50 seaters, but need a ready pool of freshly unemployed pilots, what do you think Inc would do? Why hasn't the merger been completed? You guys are livestock, circling in a Temple Grandlin fashion, waiting to be turned into hamburger to feed the grist mill that we all work in. Why do you think Brad is still is on the SKYW seniority list, they sent one of the family's own hatchet man to do the dirty work? Inc will never merge SKYW with anyone else, it's their pristine baby and they want to keep it un-diluted.

 

[sweptback]

If Skywest Inc is so worried about costs, wouldn't there be significant savings in merging Skywest Airlines and ASA? Isn't that the stated benefit of merging ASA and XJT? And the latter don't even have a common fleet type.

But that would eliminate tens of high-paying management jobs! And since the "job creators" are the ones that make these decisions, how likely is it that a merger actually happens?

 

[JumpersAway]

I'm not looking for industry leading- hasn't served anyone well. ASA and Expressjet will NEVER be merged in to SkyWest. They've made their money back from their investment several years ago, and they'd shut us down before they'd ever pour a dime from the caugher into this place........they aren't going to run it while it costs them money, and they aren't going to merge it. So, the alternative is..............very ugly.

To the ASA'ers on here- I'm not interested in bleeding for the Xjet guys and the retro pay they want from the concessions they gave up years ago.

Yes, the majors are going to hire in a year- hopefully. When they do, it will be a privelage to move on, and not a right. Hope for the best, plan on the worst- there are only a handfull of airlines now to move on to, and in many respects, some of the contracts they have are worse than what we have now.

With that being said, I'm not interested in lowering the bar, or taking a pay cut. I'm also not interested in subsidizing this place with my own blood, and sweat. However, I am looking for a contract that improves QOL and allows me to pace the race........I'd rather finish for the long haul and have money in my pocket, than sprint a short distance to fall on my face in an unemployment line.

 

[Baronman]

You won't like the answer. Inc bought ASA because they thought they could make money, they now realize that it isn't quite as easy as they thought, they are having to work at squeezing blood from your stone, but they will continue because they are determined..

So what do you propose? We adopt the current ASA contract???? No thanks.
Or better yet maybe the current TransStates contract? Then maybe big D will like everyone better? They're going to treat us like animals either way, we should fight for the best we can get. Rolling over just means we'll be miserable up until the point they put a gun to our heads.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

So what do you propose? We adopt the current ASA contract???? No thanks.
Or better yet maybe the current TransStates contract? Then maybe big D will like everyone better? They're going to treat us like animals either way, we should fight for the best we can get. Rolling over just means we'll be miserable up until the point they put a gun to our heads.

I do not propose anything except a long term perspective of Inc. Knowing who you are dealing with gives perspective. If you think rolling over will buy you some white space, think again, playing hardball may or not yield results. You are in a difficult position, the only thing Inc cannot deal with is losing money, if you put them in a position as to where they are losing money, they will roll over and show their belly. Too much loss and they will chain the doors and walk away.
PBR

 

[Baronman]

I do not propose anything except a long term perspective of Inc. Knowing who you are dealing with gives perspective. If you think rolling over will buy you some white space, think again, playing hardball may or not yield results. You are in a difficult position, the only thing Inc cannot deal with is losing money, if you put them in a position as to where they are losing money, they will roll over and show their belly. Too much loss and they will chain the doors and walk away.
PBR

Exactly, rolling over will get you nothing and playing hardball may or may not yield results. I prefer playing hardball and potentially getting results. As to INC making money, that's up to them. And even much of that is out of their hands. We could give them the world and if the deck is stacked against them, they'll lose money...

 

[Freebrd]

But that would eliminate tens of high-paying management jobs! And since the "job creators" are the ones that make these decisions, how likely is it that a merger actually happens?

i know i know, start with SH :laugh:

 

[COOPERVANE]

We could give them the world and if the deck is stacked against them, they'll lose money...

The problem is SKYW knows what they are doing.....I have no doubt in their abilities.

ASA Mgmt on the other hand is like a middle school kid playing at the world series of poker. So outclassed it's unbelievable. It's always been run by retards. Their foresight extends out to about 36 hours from now. They are only able to be reactive while chanting "we are awesome....super regional....we are awesome....we are awesome"

We have the deck stacked against us AND the company is managed by retards. THAT is why ASA cant become efficient.

They are sending out memos about how we are getting a "handle" on our performance numbers. It's nothing more than the end of the summer schedule and we've had decent weather lately.....It has NOTHING to do with skillful management like they seem to believe.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Gawd, check the bottom-of-the-barrel numbers on the website. Consistently last, or near to it. Every day. Meanwhile, we get memos about BS like whether or not we want name tags and hats.

 

[dojetdriver]

To the ASA'ers on here- I'm not interested in bleeding for the Xjet guys and the retro pay they want from the concessions they gave up years ago.

Good point, I agree. More at the bottom. Are you SURE that the XJT side of the JNC is asking for retro, or is it just FI/crewroom/urban legend bullsh1t you beileve?

With that being said, I'm not interested in lowering the bar, or taking a pay cut. I'm also not interested in subsidizing this place with my own blood, and sweat. However, I am looking for a contract that improves QOL and allows me to pace the race........I'd rather finish for the long haul and have money in my pocket, than sprint a short distance to fall on my face in an unemployment line.

Well, what the hell do you think the XJT pilots want? Problem is, we've ALREADY done the things you outlined you have no interest in. Hence our reluctance to just roll over and take it like a b1tch. Whereas there's various pilots on the ASA side that LOVE LOVE LOVE falling on the fear grenade.

 

[777forever]

What Im afraid of, is that pilots ALWAYS think someone is bluffing or just trying to put fear into the pilot group. Past history has shown more often than not, that management was not bluffing. We shouldn't completely roll over, but we don't need to walk into the run puff chested all the time either. Ask Airtran pilots....

 

[Freebrd]

is that from all your years of experience in the airlines talkin' there 777 :laugh::laugh:

rookie :smash:

 

[ASADriver]

From a line guy's perspective, it seems to me that our union is all to happy to give the company what it wants in the form of MOU's and LOA's without the input of the membership. So long as they still get their Union pay, which has gone up lately, they seem to play by Management's book without putting up much of a fight any more. A perfect example is allowing the company to use things like ACARS and an autodialer for pilot notification. I'm all for keeping our company competitive but I also don't want the company to have such easy access to me that they can screw me any time their (short) staffing model isn't working out so well for them.

I think they are balancing things well. Have you talked to these guys? The reps. aren't getting "union pay". They fly the line just like you. They fly the line and put up with this BS from the XJT guys. I think we should support them.

 

[ASADriver]

Gee, I wonder if management is floating all this stuff to split our ranks?? Of course all of you are falling for it!!! BTW hoping the whole pilot group suffers because you might take a hit?? Nice!!

I'm getting this from ASA union reps., not management.

 

[ASADriver]

I guess I dont understand why all the ASA guys seem angry at our(XJT) union for wanting to better the contract. Better pay, better QOL, better everything. Is there honestly a reason why you guys do not want a better contract and just want to go with the status quo? If there is, I am all ears, but I just dont understand not wanting to get something better. That is what our pilot group wants so that is what our union is doing. The general consensus out on the line at XJT is that if it aint better, we aint voting for it.

I can tell you why I am angry. I think your guys are trying to dictate how things will be to our group. Sorry, but we bought you. You were in trouble. You want to screw the ASA instructors. Also you don't want PBS. Our guys do. We do have to compete. We have been whipsawed much longer than you guys.

 

[Nevets]

Rumor around the training department here is that we may operate under separate contracts because it is getting so ugly between the 2 ALPA groups. Can that even happen? I thought we had come together. What the heck is going on? If what I heard is true about what the Expressjet proposal was for us instructors, I hope we don't combine. I would take a hit based on their proposal.

I honestly wouldn't care if they operate three separate airlines. Let them waste money doing that. I don't know what the proposal for you instructors although I have heard, years ago, that your instructor section is far more superior than ours. This was from an Ex MEC chair so I'm not sure I beleive your rumor. I hope that they at least get rid of the separate seniority lists for instructors. I hope that if we do combine, that you instructors get the best of both instructor sections of the contract. I can't see why the XJT MEC wouldn't want AT LEAST that much. I don't know, maybe its the whole seniority list issue.

Just curious. Where does a company get the money to pay huge contract gains when they are basically breaking even? I'm not saying I don't want it, or don't think we don't deserve it......but where do they get it? The basic problem is, they can't just charge Delta/UAL more money, because the rates are set. So, where does the money come from?

Skywest Inc (BR) said numerous times to the investors that Inc would save $35-70M a year after the merger is complete. Other than that, they should NOT come to employees to subsidize Skywest shareholders any further.

They fly the line and put up with this BS from the XJT guys.

What BS?

I can tell you why I am angry. I think your guys are trying to dictate how things will be to our group. Sorry, but we bought you. You were in trouble. You want to screw the ASA instructors. Also you don't want PBS. Our guys do. We do have to compete. We have been whipsawed much longer than you guys.

Last I checked, Skywest Inc bought all the outstanding shares of XJT and decided to merge its wholly owned subsidiary with XJT. And we were only in trouble because of JA undercutting our CPA with CAL. The irony is that they literally created our financial mess and now they are paying for it. I think the XJT MEC is open to PBS but it seems like your MEC is only willing to go with what you have now. So who is being more reasonable?

 

[79%N1]

Again, since ASA is 1/2 part of Skywest, Inc.....and Skywest Inc bought XJT, it is safe to draw the logical parallel and say "we" when inferring the buying of XJT. Man, you guys are so damm touchy about that. Semantics.......