Asa pbs ta

[SLUF4]

So which vendor does DAL use if it's so good?

 

[USCtrojan]

Unfortunately, because all of the other Competitors in the "Regional" category is why ASA has to have it. Fortunately, it appears we are getting it at ASA with our input and it's not being forced upon us. If every other DCI Carrier and otherwise did not have it, we wouldn't. So don't look to ASA to hold the line, we did until EVERYONE ELSE caved. I look forward to the information the Union is putting out. It does appear pretty efficient while adding a QOL increase. Additionally, if this is the way the Company must reduce costs, I welcome it over a deep paycut. That will be next if PBS isn't implemented.

SkyWest Pilots....I would assume you will have Flightline or Navtech very soon for your PBS systems. I'd bet money on Flightline, but AOS isn't even being considered at this point. My guess is the software is much cheaper on a volume basis, so it's all but guaranteed you'll have it.

Trojan

 

[zawillif]

They can adjusy trips, they will make it so that what ever you bid falls into what they like. its really great when you have vacation and you still get min days off

To be honest with you that is the only argument against PBS that I've heard. I've been hearing it for two full years now. It takes away your vacation, it takes away your vacation--that is the ONLY argument I've heard. That and senior guys get everything and junior guys get hosed. Like that is any different from anything else in the seniority system.

I'm still not for or against it. I'm still waiting to see the details about it to make up my mind. But you guys talk about line bidding like its the can't fail-no hassel-best system in the world. With our current system it takes me 2 hours minimum to bid every single month. In this bid packet there are 8 commutable lines. Now I have to pick through the other 150 or so to try and make my schedule not suck as much as possible. Bottom line: I'm open to other possibilities, and if it's going to help me I'll vote for it, if not I won't.

 

[samballs]

To be honest with you that is the only argument against PBS that I've heard. I've been hearing it for two full years now. It takes away your vacation, it takes away your vacation--that is the ONLY argument I've heard. That and senior guys get everything and junior guys get hosed. Like that is any different from anything else in the seniority system.

I'm still not for or against it. I'm still waiting to see the details about it to make up my mind. But you guys talk about line bidding like its the can't fail-no hassel-best system in the world. With our current system it takes me 2 hours minimum to bid every single month. In this bid packet there are 8 commutable lines. Now I have to pick through the other 150 or so to try and make my schedule not suck as much as possible. Bottom line: I'm open to other possibilities, and if it's going to help me I'll vote for it, if not I won't.

I actually like PBS over hard lines, I was trying to say that your days off are going to go down

 

[Abernathy]

Do DAL pilots complain about anything? they have been trained to like what mang shoves up the brown hole

It's usually the Atlanta-based FOs who were former commuter pilots that seem to get all gung ho.

 

[Tarzan]

I actually like PBS over hard lines, I was trying to say that your days off are going to go down

Not always the case. There have been some comments made by the guys working on it that if it gets through the way they have worked out, the only concessionary part will be vacation. Even then, they've admitted there will likely be ways to stretch that out as well. We can attack in the next contract if enough guys are unhappy with it. So far as pay goes, if the company ends up with higher profit margins, we reap the rewards. I've heard a few guys griping about how low they have been but if we get back up to the OO groups margin, we'll see a nice bonus. If the unions claimed numbers hold up over the stuff SH is peddling, we will be right there minus a couple of million.

If it becomes more efficient to run three day trips that 7.5 hours a piece, so be it. Since I don't commute, I'd rather come in, work hard and go home for four days.

 

[bigshooter107]

Not gona help the the guys on the street get back anytime soon. What are we getting in return? Both SH and CT have said it absolutly would not help our block our cost in the current enviroment.

 

[thesource]

From what I read it says a 1 percent pay raise and the ability to either maximize pay or vacation time during vacation months. Along with some other things.

 

[Freebrd]

SO every DCi carrier has a bad PBS . I'm sure they'll give you guys a good PBS so you can say you have the best PBS in DCI, get real it won't be any better or they would not offer it

we're ASA and all your boards belong to us incl the best PBS

 

[Tarzan]

Not gona help the the guys on the street get back anytime soon. What are we getting in return? Both SH and CT have said it absolutly would not help our block our cost in the current enviroment.

They are right. I will not help our block costs currently. It is not going to help in the immediate scheme of bring back our guys on the street. What it will do, is help us down the road possibly securing more flying because ASA will be able to bid at a lower rate. So in a sense, if we are able to get more flying in the near future, it will help our block cost and get our guys back on the flight deck. It will not be overnight. However, once we start to see returns, the margin increases and you wind up with an extra $4K a year that you didn't have before.

We have to take much of this with a grain of salt. The company spent an enormous amount of money getting the A-Tech up and running as well looking for programs to cut or fix. None of these are immediate money savers. They cost money but the returns down the road will eventually pay for the hard choices today. Fortunately, the company leadership (BH) is trying to formulate a plan that has us in a good position 1-5 years down the road. There are others that only care about the next three months. I have to give BH the benefit of the doubt for now until he proves otherwise.

 

[IamHYPOXIC2]

PBS...Blah!!!

PBS? Gee, I'm sure this is another genius idea like the others in the past....For instance, how about the massive furloughs chased by the vast amount of open time and red arrow days because of lack of coverage....better yet, how about the captain displacements followed by premium pay being offered now because we're short on captains all of a sudden? STOP and THINK boys & girls...VOTE NO to PBS!! (or else there just might be another hidden surprise waiting for us around the corner)

 

[Speedtape]

They are right. I will not help our block costs currently. It is not going to help in the immediate scheme of bring back our guys on the street. What it will do, is help us down the road possibly securing more flying because ASA will be able to bid at a lower rate. So in a sense, if we are able to get more flying in the near future, it will help our block cost and get our guys back on the flight deck. It will not be overnight. However, once we start to see returns, the margin increases and you wind up with an extra $4K a year that you didn't have before.

We have to take much of this with a grain of salt. The company spent an enormous amount of money getting the A-Tech up and running as well looking for programs to cut or fix. None of these are immediate money savers. They cost money but the returns down the road will eventually pay for the hard choices today. Fortunately, the company leadership (BH) is trying to formulate a plan that has us in a good position 1-5 years down the road. There are others that only care about the next three months. I have to give BH the benefit of the doubt for now until he proves otherwise.

My screen name is SPEEDTAPE, and I approve of this message!

 

[PBRstreetgang]

VOTE IT IN! BH is the messiah, he would never do anything to "his" pilots! BH hasn't flown the line since the Metro days and couldn't care less about yous guys! You keep thinking you are going to "help" the bottom line, keep thinking that. PBS is about taking ABSOLUTE control of your schedule, they can manipulate everything about the scheduling without any oversight. Pilots are so freeking stupid, thinking they are on the "management team" Why do you think THEY want it so bad? Ask yourself that very simple question, PBS might, just might, benefit the top 10% and even they will pay dearly in vacation and sick day accrual along with training events. You are cornholed, and when your starfish has the Greyhound bus parked in it these boards will be lit up like Times Square with epic whining, by ASA pilots who are pissed about being BH's new blow up jizz receptors.
Enjoy what you have now, because your future is gonna suck in ways you never imagined with PBS!
PBR

 

[boctal]

PBS? Gee, I'm sure this is another genius idea like the others in the past....For instance, how about the massive furloughs chased by the vast amount of open time and red arrow days because of lack of coverage....better yet, how about the captain displacements followed by premium pay being offered now because we're short on captains all of a sudden? STOP and THINK boys & girls...VOTE NO to PBS!! (or else there just might be another hidden surprise waiting for us around the corner)

Try to be a little more open-minded. Let's see the details before we start shooting it down.

 

[Speedtape]

I can't even imagine anything they could offer to make me vote in PBS. Just ask any CAL pilot about it. This is not going to make us competitive. This will only make a dent in our cost but make a crater in our QOL. I know I know, I have not even seen it yet. But like I said I can't even imagine.
With all due respect, your perception is wrong. This system will be something much different and better than anything they have at Continental.
It is also interesting that the union has been so quite but to say how far away they are from a TA, then the elections get close and now we have a TA. Did the current MEC start to think they would not win reelection and wanted control over what was in the TA? Is it because the more senior MEC would be the one's to benefit the most from it? Just some thoughts. VOTE NO!

As unpopular as PBS seems to be with the majority of our pilots, why do you thing it would be wise for the MEC to obtain a TA before the elections? Your logic seems fuzzy.

The MEC is not Senior, unless you are a newhire. There is one senior guy, one mid-level seniority pilot, one about 7 years, and the other about 5 years. Is that senior?

Don't just VOTE NO! That is the most closed minded and illogical approach I have ever heard. Wait, and take a deep breath. When the TA comes out with the language, and you have looked at the demonstrations, make an intelligent, and informed decision! Otherwise, one might question your decision making abilities in an airplane--not that I am! Just say YES, to the idea of being open minded, gather the facts about PBS, make your observations of the future demos, talk to other pilots, and then, and only then, MAKE YOUR DECISION!

 

[Bluestreak]

If it's Navtech,I would advise you vote NO.Do you like working Christmas while people junior to you are off ? It WILL happen.The excuses offered will range from "Well,the company didn't buy all the software that we need" to "You were affected by unstacking/denial mode/you name it".Would you like to be off the weekend before your vacation starts ? Too bad ! You will work until midnight Sunday.Did you know "Set Min Sked" really isn't ? Do you think management really wants this to improve your QOL? Bah.....It's perfect for them.They will manipulate awards (Called "manual assignment") to get the results THEY want. "Days Off must be in groups of two" on your contract ? Get ready for 5 on-2 off skeds.Does your contract require 10 hours in base between assignments ? Presto,10:15 between pairings.If you vote for this,be ready to see "Not considered" when you request "weekends off",or "No check ins before xxxxAM",or anything else you asked for.I'm in the top 30% in base and it happens to people senior to me.It's a big ol' Sam's Club size Sack O'Crap.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Try to be a little more open-minded. Let's see the details before we start shooting it down.

Ahhh,
You are right, try it on for size, BH would never do anything but help "his pilots". Try and remember this BH was the VP of Flight Ops at SKYW right up until he became your problem, everything chitty that was jammed in our starfishes was stuffed there by BH, everything! Know why SKYW has "leadership" classes, so many people are pissed about everything BH inflicted upon us they are taking it out on the company and they are noticing it on the bottom line. The only thing thas good about BH being at ASA is he is no longer at SKYW and our damage is limited and yours is a whole continent away. Enjoy Brad and PBS, your slide is just starting and will only pick up speed. If history is indicator of the past AOS will be your "new" PBS vendor, you just don't realize it.
PBR

 

[WWEfan]

As unpopular as PBS seems to be with the majority of our pilots, why do you thing it would be wise for the MEC to obtain a TA before the elections? Your logic seems fuzzy.

The MEC is not Senior, unless you are a newhire. There is one senior guy, one mid-level seniority pilot, one about 7 years, and the other about 5 years. Is that senior?

Don't just VOTE NO! That is the most closed minded and illogical approach I have ever heard. Wait, and take a deep breath. When the TA comes out with the language, and you have looked at the demonstrations, make an intelligent, and informed decision! Otherwise, one might question your decision making abilities in an airplane--not that I am! Just say YES, to the idea of being open minded, gather the facts about PBS, make your observations of the future demos, talk to other pilots, and then, and only then, MAKE YOUR DECISION!

My screen name is WWEfan and I approved this message.

 

[buscap]

VOTE IT IN! BH is the messiah, he would never do anything to "his" pilots! BH hasn't flown the line since the Metro days and couldn't care less about yous guys! You keep thinking you are going to "help" the bottom line, keep thinking that. PBS is about taking ABSOLUTE control of your schedule, they can manipulate everything about the scheduling without any oversight. Pilots are so freeking stupid, thinking they are on the "management team" Why do you think THEY want it so bad? Ask yourself that very simple question, PBS might, just might, benefit the top 10% and even they will pay dearly in vacation and sick day accrual along with training events. You are cornholed, and when your starfish has the Greyhound bus parked in it these boards will be lit up like Times Square with epic whining, by ASA pilots who are pissed about being BH's new blow up jizz receptors.
Enjoy what you have now, because your future is gonna suck in ways you never imagined with PBS!
PBR

Sooooo....you're for PBS? Right?

 

[buscap]

Ahhh,
You are right, try it on for size, BH would never do anything but help "his pilots". Try and remember this BH was the VP of Flight Ops at SKYW right up until he became your problem, everything chitty that was jammed in our starfishes was stuffed there by BH, everything! Know why SKYW has "leadership" classes, so many people are pissed about everything BH inflicted upon us they are taking it out on the company and they are noticing it on the bottom line. The only thing thas good about BH being at ASA is he is no longer at SKYW and our damage is limited and yours is a whole continent away. Enjoy Brad and PBS, your slide is just starting and will only pick up speed. If history is indicator of the past AOS will be your "new" PBS vendor, you just don't realize it.
PBR

Dude!

I am listening and heeding your warnings, but the sytem and work rules we are chasing make us apples and oranges on this. And my bung... (you called it a starfish...twice...you really should see a shrink and find out if the wallpaper in your nursery had starfishes on it)...my bung is tightly guarded about this whole thing.

Our biggest NO through this entire process was an outright refusal to even consider the system you guys got "starfished" with....but then again, we being union and you guys being purple-helmet-warrior targets due to not being union...you must like the old starfish pokey!!!

hee hee

No really, I do appreciate the warnings, but like I said, apples and oranges.

 

[lonestarpilot20]

I've already decided to vote no, I don't care whether DL guys like theirs or not. I like being able to turn 1 week of vacation into 17 days off in a row and usually 21 for the month. Straight from NT's mouth with PBS you won't be able to do that. Sorry that's a deal killer right there. I am not convinced either that PBS doesn't just benefit the top 10 to 15% of the seniority.

 

[wms]

You may still have the option to maximize vaca, we won't know until we see it ourselves. With our MMG it is worth it to the company financially.

 

[Poppa Hodax]

[snip]
Straight from NT's mouth with PBS you won't be able to do that.
[snip]

THIS. Changing the deal with maximizing vacation is a deal breaker. I don't believe Scheduling will do ANYTHING other than bookend my vacation with trips.

The system, as is, inherently favors the senior guys, which is fine. But I see no need to replace that system with one that further favors the senior guys.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Dude!

I am listening and heeding your warnings, but the sytem and work rules we are chasing make us apples and oranges on this. And my bung... (you called it a starfish...twice...you really should see a shrink and find out if the wallpaper in your nursery had starfishes on it)...my bung is tightly guarded about this whole thing.

Our biggest NO through this entire process was an outright refusal to even consider the system you guys got "starfished" with....but then again, we being union and you guys being purple-helmet-warrior targets due to not being union...you must like the old starfish pokey!!!

hee hee

No really, I do appreciate the warnings, but like I said, apples and oranges.

So be it,
SKYW has a fleet of high dollar anti-union lawyers, any contract that you sign will have a tiny loopholes with long drawstrings, you might not even notice them, but they will be your undoing. If you truly knew how much SGU hates unions you would very nervous, its a pathological phobia, since you guys are the redheaded stepchild and union to boot, you will live and die by the sword(read contract), you can bet, that if SGU wants it, you will hate it. Anything they can(and will) due to you guys will be blamed on the "union" and BH will get a chub off of that. Remember if you sign on for a PBS system read every line of code, SKYW will pay lots of money to have things rewritten to their advantage. As far as "starfish" that is a silly code I use, don't be offended, I offer these warnings at no advantage for myself and in fact you only stand to gain anything by heeding them and lots to lose by ignoring them.
Good luck you will need it.
PBR
P.S. Go here:
http://www.fordharrison.com/
This is who you are up against, SKYW keeps them on retainer.
Know your enemy!

 

[79%N1]

Not everyone stretches the vaca into 17 days as it is. To do that, one drops usually 3 days touching the first day of vaca, and then drops the 3 days touching the last. That is 6 days unpaid off your credit! I for one can't afford that. I get 8 or 9 days off now as it is, so this whole stretching vaca isn't that big a deal for everyone.

 

[SiuDude]

Duhrrr, buh uh, mhhhm.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Not everyone stretches the vaca into 17 days as it is. To do that, one drops usually 3 days touching the first day of vaca, and then drops the 3 days touching the last. That is 6 days unpaid off your credit! I for one can't afford that. I get 8 or 9 days off now as it is, so this whole stretching vaca isn't that big a deal for everyone.

I respectfully see your point. However, rant on....

The vacation thing ALONE is a no vote for me. I maximize vaca EVERY TIME. I travel overseas for every single vacation. And now since we have NO S2's and even lower priority than a new hire Delta rampers aunt Lafawnduh, I NEED that 3 weeks to get back home after being shoved to the bottom of every standby list I am on.

I am sorry, the

"we dont get S2's either"
"Work for Delta if you want better benefits"
"It could suck worse"
"It does suck worse at XYZ airline"
arguments don't sway me.

Just because your regional has a sucky PBS system, Crappy travel bennies, QOL issues, pressure to fly tired, pressure to fly broke airplanes, does not mean that ASA pilots have to lower their standards.

Hell EVERY regional out there should be CHEERING when one of us gets a nice benefit, but instead we all come on here and say "well .....join the club!" We are supposed to be holding or raising the bar, NOT lowering it (looking at you Pinnacle)

We are our worst enemy, we are playing checkers while management is playing chess.

Voting no!!

Rant over

 

[buscap]

People!!!

Can't vote until we see the TA!!!

Don't pre-judge!!!!

If it sucks...it sucks!!

But you can't call it yet.

 

[SLUF4]

well said, coopervane

 

[JumpersAway]

Gonna do some reading and see where we stand before making my decision. Vacation is my primary concern- I want the flexibility.

It's only a matter of time before it ends up here anyway, one way or another........Frankly, right now we've got negotiating leverage to bargain and obtain a better system than we'd have just rammed down our throats- especially given PBR's theory on management and contracts (provided you buy into that theory)......