Asa pbs ta

[Texx]

I said the same thing about our current contract.... wait...get informed....ask questions....Give it a chance. I listened, I asked questions. You see the turd we ended up with. It is SO full of loopholes.

And how did you vote on the contract?

 

[maxcackel]

Ok, Someone answer this simple question. Where does the money the company saves from pbs come from? Our pockets or theirs?

 

[JustaNumber]

Ok, Someone answer this simple question. Where does the money the company saves from pbs come from? Our pockets or theirs?

Part of it comes from the pockets of the pilots they don't have to hire to cover new flying, if we ever get any.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Ok, Someone answer this simple question. Where does the money the company saves from pbs come from? Our pockets or theirs?

It comes from lower expenses that will in turn help us secure more flying in a very competitive environment...It is a fairly painless way to save the company money....We can either compete, or we can continue to shrink....Your choice....

 

[maxcackel]

Come on you can say it JP, PAY CUT. The company has lower expenses from a lower payroll cost. Still won't compete with mesa or peenuckle.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Come on you can say it JP, PAY CUT. The company has lower expenses from a lower payroll cost. Still won't compete with mesa or peenuckle.

You think I am Pennekamp....Now that's funny...

We can either compete or we can ignore market realities....If you choose the latter....you better get the phone number for truck masters.

 

[maxcackel]

Sorry Joe, meant JM. I just don't understand why so many people are willing to give up money to save the company when it never works. They just come back for more and more. Have we not learned anything from our past or others. Do you really think the money saved will get us more flying or will it be "Sorry we tried but just missed it but keep up the great work, we just need to cut cost a little more. Details on that next week".

 

[maxcackel]

Part of it comes from the pockets of the pilots they don't have to hire to cover new flying, if we ever get any.

I'll give you that, they won't have to bring back the furloughs "IF" we get more flying. But will you admit that most of it comes in less paid out to current pilots?

 

[PBRstreetgang]

especially given PBR's theory on management and contracts (provided you buy into that theory)......

Ok,
The black helicopters are still outside my windows. I can say with absolute certainty that Ford and Harrison LLC was on retainer during the last 3 union drives and advised BH and JA directly. I would assume they are still on retainer, and BH can access them anytime. If you don't think your contract is under the microscope over at the F&H bunker, looking for any weak points, you are delusional. Can you name ANY, repeat ANY, pilot group, union or not that has had any QOL increase in the last 8 years? Now list every pilot group that has had their junk sliced off and handed to them in a paper bag. I am gonna bet the "junk in a bag group" is larger.
Good luck!
PBR

 

[maxcackel]

Ok,
The black helicopters are still outside my windows. I can say with absolute certainty that Ford and Harrison LLC was on retainer during the last 3 union drives and advised BH and JA directly. I would assume they are still on retainer, and BH can access them anytime. If you don't think your contract is under the microscope over at the F&H bunker, looking for any weak points, you are delusional. Can you name ANY, repeat ANY, pilot group, union or not that has had any QOL increase in the last 8 years? Now list every pilot group that has had their junk sliced off and handed to them in a paper bag. I am gonna bet the "junk in a bag group" is larger.
Good luck!
PBR

And this time it is up to us to vote to cut off our own junk and gift wrap it before we hand it over.

 

[777forever]

Come on you can say it JP, PAY CUT. The company has lower expenses from a lower payroll cost. Still won't compete with mesa or peenuckle.

Yes its a very small paycut for each ASA pilot. The real saving from PBS will be not needing to hire pilots to cover trips due to more efficient schedules. Combined with the extension of the current contract one year it will allow ASA to bid on RFPs at a much lower bid.

You're big on QOL Max. Tell me, would your QOL be better as we shrink in ATL and you become a reserve captain, or worse, an unemployed captain, OR, ASA expands and you gain more flexibility, control over your schedule?

Sacrifices must be made to today to reap the benefits of tomorrow. Stop thinking short term and think long term. These are trying times. We must be in survival mode now. As far as the pilot vs. management war to win a war one must choose their battles wisely. Now would not be the time to launch an attack or be stubborn. With attrition at zero the only way to move upward and see any kind of QOL increase is through growth. Lets work with these guys for a couple of years in 2011/2012 when the legacy guys start retiring and the company is sweating for pilots then you can launch your attack and be as stubborn as you want.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

PBS IS a concession!!! DON'T allow it. It's a crap deal. No more bidding into conflicts to get extra days off. No more turning 7 days vacation into 15 days off in a row. Much more difficult to tell if the company is playing games with your schedules. Depending on how it's set up, no more composite/build up/ blended, whatever you call them (part reserve part flying) lines, which at least at Mesaba is a HUGE paycut for some of us. DON'T DO IT!!!

 

[Mike man]

RUN ASA....RUN

PBS is crap. It is a pay cut, no more transition conflicts, no more vacation extending, no more training drops...all gone PBS sucks.

If management wants it...you shouldn't. No matter what they say, how they say it, to sell it to you...walk away from it.

 

[buscap]

Ok,
The black helicopters are still outside my windows. I can say with absolute certainty that Ford and Harrison LLC was on retainer during the last 3 union drives and advised BH and JA directly. I would assume they are still on retainer, and BH can access them anytime. If you don't think your contract is under the microscope over at the F&H bunker, looking for any weak points, you are delusional. Can you name ANY, repeat ANY, pilot group, union or not that has had any QOL increase in the last 8 years? Now list every pilot group that has had their junk sliced off and handed to them in a paper bag. I am gonna bet the "junk in a bag group" is larger.
Good luck!
PBR

Actually yes. ASA had a significant QOL improvement in our current contract. Hard fought and a long time coming, but an improvement by every measure. Some improvements even trickled over to the Skywest side, thank you very much!!!

 

[Texx]

Ok, Someone answer this simple question. Where does the money the company saves from pbs come from? Our pockets or theirs?

If you hadn't earned the money then it's not your money in the first place.

 

[JustaNumber]

I'll give you that, they won't have to bring back the furloughs "IF" we get more flying. But will you admit that most of it comes in less paid out to current pilots?

No, quite the opposite. It will be the same pay, until new flying shows up. Then it will be more pay, but more flying and less time off.

Think about it from the big picture perspective: The company has "x" number of block hours per month to cover, and "y" number of active pilots. The average line value will be approximately (x/y). These numbers are fixed. This is true whether you have the current line bidding system, PBS, or some system created by the cookie monster.

Things start to change when you increase the number of block hours to be flown, though. The company usually responds by increasing average line values, and increasing the number of lines. This approach has eventual limitations, as pilots start bumping up against FAR limits, many pilots don't fly the average line value because of vacation and training issues, and the company starts running out of reserve pilots and has to cancel flights. Eventually, more pilots must be hired, along with their associated overhead costs such as training, taxes, insurance, etc. But with PBS, the average line value can be jacked up higher, as there are fewer vacation/training conflicts. The company then works the current pilots more hours, and saves on all those overhead costs associated with hiring more pilots.

Three end results:
1) The senior pilot who previously had earned two weeks of vacation but manages to turn it into 4 weeks (he gets paid a month's pay for zero flying), would under PBS fly 45 hours that month. He would be paid what he earned. (We would be giving up a contract "bonus", though).
2) The pilot who previously had 85 hours of credit, which included 2 days of a training event and 15 days off, would under PBS get 93 hours of credit, including 2 days of a training event and 13 days off. He also would be paid what he earned.
3) The furloughed pilot has to wait until much more flying is obtained in order to come back. In the meantime, he is being paid what he earned.

Therefore, PBS is fair, but you would end up working more, and be paid the same or more.

 

[777forever]

PBS IS a concession!!! DON'T allow it. It's a crap deal. No more bidding into conflicts to get extra days off. No more turning 7 days vacation into 15 days off in a row. Much more difficult to tell if the company is playing games with your schedules. Depending on how it's set up, no more composite/build up/ blended, whatever you call them (part reserve part flying) lines, which at least at Mesaba is a HUGE paycut for some of us. DON'T DO IT!!!

ASA folks, this is someone who's company would directly benefit from ASA turning down PBS. Of course he's going to say don't do it.

No, quite the opposite. It will be the same pay, until new flying shows up. Then it will be more pay, but more flying and less time off.

Think about it from the big picture perspective: The company has "x" number of block hours per month to cover, and "y" number of active pilots. The average line value will be approximately (x/y). These numbers are fixed. This is true whether you have the current line bidding system, PBS, or some system created by the cookie monster.

Things start to change when you increase the number of block hours to be flown, though. The company usually responds by increasing average line values, and increasing the number of lines. This approach has eventual limitations, as pilots start bumping up against FAR limits, many pilots don't fly the average line value because of vacation and training issues, and the company starts running out of reserve pilots and has to cancel flights. Eventually, more pilots must be hired, along with their associated overhead costs such as training, taxes, insurance, etc. But with PBS, the average line value can be jacked up higher, as there are fewer vacation/training conflicts. The company then works the current pilots more hours, and saves on all those overhead costs associated with hiring more pilots.

Three end results:
1) The senior pilot who previously had earned two weeks of vacation but manages to turn it into 4 weeks (he gets paid a month's pay for zero flying), would under PBS fly 45 hours that month. He would be paid what he earned. (We would be giving up a contract "bonus", though).
2) The pilot who previously had 85 hours of credit, which included 2 days of a training event and 15 days off, would under PBS get 93 hours of credit, including 2 days of a training event and 13 days off. He also would be paid what he earned.
3) The furloughed pilot has to wait until much more flying is obtained in order to come back. In the meantime, he is being paid what he earned.

Therefore, PBS is fair, but you would end up working more, and be paid the same or more.

Exactly. PBS schedules very efficiently so you get paid what you earned or actually worked. Max wants the free money which is a horrible way for a company to be cost effective and win more flying.

It gives pilots a very bad rep when a program that makes a company more efficient is turned down by pilots because they will lose their free money pay.

 

[maxcackel]

No thanks, you can keep the concession I will keep my few extra days off here and there and my ability to know my overnights, pick up extra flying from all the dropped trips when they pull all the lines down to 75hrs or less. Whats to keep them from all 75hr lines with pbs. But wait you say if we sign here we will all get 85-95hr lines with major expansion because we will be able to underbid all the competition. I don't think that will happen. Pbs without an expansion would really suck, your willing to risk that?

 

[buscap]

ASA folks, this is someone who's company would directly benefit from ASA turning down PBS. Of course he's going to say don't do it.



Exactly. PBS schedules very efficiently so you get paid what you earned or actually worked. Max wants the free money which is a horrible way for a company to be cost effective and win more flying.

It gives pilots a very bad rep when a program that makes a company more efficient is turned down by pilots because they will lose their free money pay.

Free money my asssssss!! Yes it's more productive, but the end result is a paycut. And he has a valid point.

What is invalid is the idea of outright rejecting PBS until we actually see the language, but pay is a valid issue.

 

[maxcackel]

Free money my asssssss!! Yes it's more productive, but the end result is a paycut. And he has a valid point.

What is invalid is the idea of outright rejecting PBS until we actually see the language, but pay is a valid issue.

I will look at the offer with a 100 percent open mind, but like I said at the top of this thread I can't imagine what the company could offer to make it worth me giving up. I can tell it will not be for the hope of under bidding the other airlines. It is not our job as employees to give the company money so they can get us more flying.