ASA Negotiations

[ReportCanoa]

I have been reading this part of the thread with interest. I don't fly for ASA but I think some are missing part of the equation (not necessarily you). However, under your language, if you have an 80 hour line and fly every leg under for a total of 70 hours of actual block time, I believe you will be paid 80 hours (70 hours in one line on your pay check and 10 hours in the premium line).

So unless I am mistaken, you have 2 lines on your pay stub. One is for actual block hours flown and the other is for premium pay (which is the underblock portion). The only thing different for you guys versus the industry norm is that you guys are paid the underblock above guarantee which means that anyone who flies less than 75 hours (or MPG) will be paid this amount above 75 hours, allowing someone with a 40 hour nap line to be paid well above 75 hours. Most good contracts provide for "Scheduled or Actual on a leg by leg (or segment) basis." Basically if you fly 2 60 minute legs and one of those you do in 50 minutes and the other you do 70 minutes you get paid 2:10. That is the norm. The only difference is that in your contract that 10 minutes of "unders" would go above guarantee thereby affecting pilots on reserve and the nap guys (and anyone else who has block time less than 75 like a guy with vacation).

Perhaps the company just wants to get rid of the "above guarantee" part? I believe Skywest gets paid like I described above...and not just "actual block time" which is what some of you think your company wants here.

-Neal

You are correct. It's a pretty simple concept, and I don't know how you go from flying 70 hours on an 80 hour line to being paid for 85 hours. That is waaaay over my head. I'd like to know how to do it though...

 

[AdamKooper]

If you have an 80 line but only fly 75 hours you get paid for 85 hours.

 

[ReportCanoa]

If you have an 80 line but only fly 75 hours you get paid for 85 hours.

Premium is in addition to GUARANTEE. Eighty hours is not guarantee, seventy-five is. 75 + 5 = 80.

 

[sweptback]

Premium is in addition to GUARANTEE. Eighty hours is not guarantee, seventy-five is. 75 + 5 = 80.

The math works out like this:

80 - line value
70 - block time flown (10 hours underblock)

Your paycheck would then be 75 (guarantee) + 10 (underblock) = 85.

However, this is an academic exercise. 5 hours or so is more like it, and then it doesn't matter much because we would get paid for our line value anyway.

Premium underblock pay only affects a small number of pilots routinely. I would rather have a good trip and duty rig and give up premium underblock pay for regular block or better (on a leg-for-leg basis). I believe we would come out way ahead as a group, and that would benefit us all. However, our MEC is the one that will make the call, and I support their decision.

 

[Tomct]

D....WHAT? Oh, never mind! You are a true idiot!
Stiff....That was AWESOME!!!:laugh:

 

[BluDevAv8r]

The math works out like this:

80 - line value
70 - block time flown (10 hours underblock)

Your paycheck would then be 75 (guarantee) + 10 (underblock) = 85.

However, this is an academic exercise. 5 hours or so is more like it, and then it doesn't matter much because we would get paid for our line value anyway.

I think you are incorrect. I just had a long discussion with an ASA pilot about this issue. He has been at the company for 7 years and confirmed my belief. Here is another example for you...Scheduled for 90 hours...fly in 80 hours. What are you paid? 90 hours. Being under on every leg will only garner you your scheduled block time. The only people that are making out by flying faster than block are the guys on reserve and the guys who do naps. Check out the examples at the back of Appendix B of your contract.

-Neal

 

[bailout]

What everybody said is true. Its the magic '75 hour' mark that seems to confuse everybody. Look at nappers. Their line is 40 hours, they fly 35, that gets bumped up to 75, plus 5 hours premium. So, they get paid 80 hours. >>Scheduled for 90 hours...fly in 80 hours. What are you paid? 90 hours. << True, but if your line is 77 hours, you fly 72, you get 75 plus 5, which is 80.
So once you decide which way you are going to fly for the month, stick with it. What sux is you can have 6-7 hours of premiuim going and then have a 'parking delay', or holding or whatever that puts you over the 75 hour mark, so you lose the 'extra premium' for the whole month.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

What everybody said is true. Its the magic '75 hour' mark that seems to confuse everybody. Look at nappers. Their line is 40 hours, they fly 35, that gets bumped up to 75, plus 5 hours premium. So, they get paid 80 hours. >>Scheduled for 90 hours...fly in 80 hours. What are you paid? 90 hours. << True, but if your line is 77 hours, you fly 72, you get 75 plus 5, which is 80.
So once you decide which way you are going to fly for the month, stick with it. What sux is you can have 6-7 hours of premiuim going and then have a 'parking delay', or holding or whatever that puts you over the 75 hour mark, so you lose the 'extra premium' for the whole month.

I could definitely be wrong on the issue. Perhaps someone should email your Compliance Committee or CNC and find out what their take is on it...since they will know better than most on here. Sorry to step in the bees nest and good luck to all of you with your contract talks.

-Neal

 

[regionalcap]

Neal,

Once you go below the 75 hours in flown block, then it starts to help you out. Those examples in Appendix B only show your credit for each leg. It doesn't show what your hours are for the month.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal,

Once you go below the 75 hours in flown block, then it starts to help you out. Those examples in Appendix B only show your credit for each leg. It doesn't show what your hours are for the month.

Sounds good....my 8th year Captain bud was pretty adamant though...I'll have to make a few more calls, but like I said...it is 6 and 1 at this point. You guys are going to be fighting to keep stuff in your contract....I hope you make gains too...you deserve them.

-Neal

 

[D'Angelo]

The set of management ones that are bouncing of your chin don't count.

Again you guys give me way too much credit. Ive never met anyone in uppermanagement let alone seen anyone with their trousers removed in the company. Sorry to spoil your fantasy. Maybe youd like to come check and do a cough test on all of us over here thatd probably stroke your fancy quite nicely.

 

[sweptback]

I think you are incorrect. I just had a long discussion with an ASA pilot about this issue. He has been at the company for 7 years and confirmed my belief. Here is another example for you...Scheduled for 90 hours...fly in 80 hours. What are you paid? 90 hours. Being under on every leg will only garner you your scheduled block time. The only people that are making out by flying fasther than block are the guys on reserve and the guys who do naps. Check out the examples at the back of Appendix B of your contract.

Premium only matters if you are close to guarantee. In the situation you presented, underblock pay would work exactly as you described. I am almost certain that the scenario that I laid out would pay you as listed, but like I said it is an academic exercise because that situation would never really happen.

That's why this affects so few pilots, and why I'm totally willing to trade it for something that would benefit a lot more of our pilot group.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Premium only matters if you are close to guarantee. In the situation you presented, underblock pay would work exactly as you described. I am almost certain that the scenario that I laid out would pay you as listed, but like I said it is an academic exercise because that situation would never really happen.

That's why this affects so few pilots, and why I'm totally willing to trade it for something that would benefit a lot more of our pilot group.

Agreed, since they probably build most lines at least at 80 hours and it would be very difficult to fly more than 10% of your trip under block like that...

-Neal

 

[ASApuppy]

Honestly, 10 hours of premium in an 80 hour line flying through ATL? The only way that happens is with the pen to the log. I think its a safe bet that some form of electronic timekeeping will be in place before this contract were negotiating becomes amendable. Point is, lets concentrate on guaranteed money. Doing things like duty-rig and trip-rig. Lets not forget, the other very valuable, minimum day. With these work rules, you will know the value of the line you bid. The real point of these rules is to force the company to utilize you more efficiently. That will lead to more days off. If Willy takes over again, then we will see fat checks.

I think if you do the math, these changes will result in higher overall compensation for the pilot group. Yes, I know the reserve pilots get screwed, but the majority are not on reserve and reserve in not a permenant sentence.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Doing things like duty-rig and trip-rig. Lets not forget, the other very valuable, minimum day. With these work rules, you will know the value of the line you bid.

You make a good point. If we had Fed Ex's work rules and minimum day value an ASA nap line would be worth 110 hours of pay. Of course if we had FedEx's contract the schedule would be engineered a lot differently. I like the idea that when we are at work, we get paid.

I don't like losing premium, but if I got a 5.5 hours minimum day, I could eek out a living bidding naps to CSG

~~~^~~~

 

[Tim47SIP]

Doing things like duty-rig and trip-rig. Lets not forget, the other very valuable, minimum day. With these work rules, you will know the value of the line you bid. The real point of these rules is to force the company to utilize you more efficiently.


Anyone know if we are trying to get this? If so, what exactly are we asking for? I am sort of of the loop so sorry if it is old news.

Also do we know what the actual terms of the commuter clause that was TA'd states? The last thing I heard was two times per year which is really worthless but it is a start. Thanks.

 

[Tomct]

Tim, last I heard, they were asking for a 2/1 duty rig! That would work just fine for me!! We shall see if the company pulls out their heads and plays ball! Keep your head down over there buddy and be safe!

 

["GO AROUND"]

Underblock is great, but should not be dangerous.


Most of the ASA FO's that fly naps on the 50 know we have one particular Capt. (lets call him Capt "I never knew what he was going to do next") that rushes for underblock so much so that he is dangerous. For example, rushing checklists to the point of taking off without completing the takeoff checklist. Telling the FO to do it on the roll. Nice. I flew with him a couple years ago on a 3 day that he picked up and we had words just about every leg about something he did or tried to do so nonstandard that it was unsafe.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Underblock is great, but should not be dangerous.


Most of the ASA FO's that fly naps on the 50 know we have one particular Capt. (lets call him Capt "I never knew what he was going to do next") that rushes for underblock so much so that he is dangerous. For example, rushing checklists to the point of taking off without completing the takeoff checklist. Telling the FO to do it on the roll. Nice. I flew with him a couple years ago on a 3 day that he picked up and we had words just about every leg about something he did or tried to do so nonstandard that it was unsafe.

Wow. Does he get antsy and fidgety when his parking spot is occupied back at ATL the next day and he has to wait a few extra minutes on the ground?

-Neal

 

[punkpilot48]

Sorry but maybe this was kinda answered in this thread already but is underblock the same idea as block or better? And what is duty rigs? I dont think I have ever heard that term over here.

 

[ASARJMan]

What's going on with negotiations this week? Hearing the company wasn't prepared to counter yesterday, and didn't even meet with the ASA negotiators at all tuesday. The nmediator released the ASA guys until today. What's that mean?

 

[Sinca3]

It means that if there isn´t a huge turn out today at picketing to show our frustration, it will continue this way until the pilot group gets its collective $hit together and shows mgmnt we are tired of thier bull$hit!!!!!!!!!

 

[D'Angelo]

It means that if there isn´t a huge turn out today at picketing to show our frustration, it will continue this way until the pilot group gets its collective $hit together and shows mgmnt we are tired of thier bull$hit!!!!!!!!!

If some pilots dont wanna show up they dont have to. There are plenty that are sick of your bull$hit and union anger and lies. Sorry stalin you cant force everyone to goose step and hold pretty signs.

 

[shamrock]

Most of the ASA FO's that fly naps on the 50 know we have one particular Capt. (lets call him Capt "I never knew what he was going to do next") that rushes for underblock so much so that he is dangerous. For example, rushing checklists to the point of taking off without completing the takeoff checklist. Telling the FO to do it on the roll. Nice. I flew with him a couple years ago on a 3 day that he picked up and we had words just about every leg about something he did or tried to do so nonstandard that it was unsafe.

You're killing me here. I did the vampire thing for about a year and still go back once in a while and I'm trying to figure out who you're talking about. I have an idea about one guy but he didn't seem that bad when I flew with him, so I'm not sure if I'm right. M.R.?