ASA Negotiations

[John Pennekamp]

Underblock is a ridiculous basis for compensation. It does not motivate crews to be efficient, nor to be on time. It just makes them fly faster making for waste. Sometimes being underblock means being on time, but just as often it means arriving early, which is not of any particular benefit to the company, but for which crews are equally rewarded. At the same time it doesn't necessarily generate on time performance. You can be 30 minutes late at destination because you took an hour to get lunch on a 45 minute turn, but still get premium if you are underblock. That's crazy.

Beyond wasting gas by flying full out, crews have no control over the factors that contribute to earning premium. Whether you get premium has more to do with wx, ATC, rampers, ramp control, etc. than anything within a pilot's control. It doesn't reward the guys and gals who show real hustle out there, it just rewards those with good luck, good timing and a willingness to burn extra gas to go Mach .83.

Smartest thing to do is get rid of premium pay. No I didn't say take money from the pilots, just get rid of premium pay. It's not hard to figure out the annual average of premium pay and to roll it into the pilots' pay rates. No net cost to the company and no loss to the pilots. And no, that is not as substitue for any pay rate increases the pilots can negotiate. It is just a way to stop the wasteful practices that premium pay encourages.

Sounds like the disgruntled whinings of someone who can't ever get any premium.

If we lose premium, we have taken a 15% pay cut, period. Your 85 hour line will become 75 hour guarantee. My 60 hour (85 credit) line becomes 75. Not good!

 

[Muff-N-Man]

Premium/underblock pay helps EVERYONE!!!

Examples:

4. Lineholders blocked over 85 hours could LOSE money without premium. Premium also protects your scheduled block time. The 70 seat RJ is a premium machine. I am blocked at 90 hours this month. I will probably get 5 hours underblock without even trying. Without premium pay I would be paid 85 hours or less for my 90 hour line.

Hold the line on premium.

Wrong. I think we should keep premium pay, but get your argument right. The way they want to do it, if your blocked for 90hours, you get paid for 90 hours, even if you fly 50 (cnx, premium, etc.).

 

[Muff-N-Man]

Let me reiterate, I'm for keeping premuim, and cnx, and adding duty rigs, and retro pay.....

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Waste???

You're not a very estute pilot if you can't figure out ways to get to your destination faster without burning more gas. If I'm running behind, I can always find a way to get my passengers to their destination as close to on time as possible. Then again, I would do that with or without premium pay.

 

[rjcap]

The bigger issue is trip and duty rigs !

You need to be looking at how much actual pay you recieve for the total time you are on duty and away from home on a trip. While I am not discounting premium- block or better - it is really a non issue when looking at the bigger picture of total compensation from the time you duty in at domicile to the time you duty out at domicile.

Don't get caught up in the smaller issues and neglect the big ones !

Regarding my original post of a TA by the end of the 1st week of June, I hereby retract that stupid statement. I replace it with the following.

No TA in the foreceeable future.

 

[Crash Pad]

The bigger issue is trip and duty rigs !

You need to be looking at how much actual pay you recieve for the total time you are on duty and away from home on a trip. While I am not discounting premium- block or better - it is really a non issue when looking at the bigger picture of total compensation from the time you duty in at domicile to the time you duty out at domicile.

Don't get caught up in the smaller issues and neglect the big ones !

Regarding my original post of a TA by the end of the 1st week of June, I hereby retract that stupid statement. I replace it with the following.

No TA in the foreceeable future.

Jackpot we have a winner. The guys at ASA are chasing pay scale, premium, and overblock. Suckers! The big fish out there is trip and duty rigs. Talk to your local SKYW pilot. He has a lower payscale but makes more. How can they do that without premium... gasp.
Oh the 70 paycut... gasp. Again talk to your local SKYW pilot and you will discover that they are making more than you. How can that be when they have a lower payscale.
I try to keep these things to myself because I guess my MEC speaks for me!

 

[D'Angelo]

Jackpot we have a winner. The guys at ASA are chasing pay scale, premium, and overblock. Suckers! The big fish out there is trip and duty rigs. Talk to your local SKYW pilot. He has a lower payscale but makes more. How can they do that without premium... gasp.
Oh the 70 paycut... gasp. Again talk to your local SKYW pilot and you will discover that they are making more than you. How can that be when they have a lower payscale.
I try to keep these things to myself because I guess my MEC speaks for me!

Another example of the MEC being rampant, out of control and not even letting pilots vote on the issues.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Another example of the MEC being rampant, out of control and not even letting pilots vote on the issues.

What is it that the pilots should have voted on at this point?

ASA has membership ratification, so when the time comes, it will be the pilots of ASA not the MEC that decide on a TA.

Once again, you lips are moving, feces is frothing out of your mouth, and it is completely innaccurate.

You are a flame baiter pure and simple. I am not sure who is the bigger fool, you for your infantile form of self-amusement, or those of us who chose to respond.

 

[atrdriver]

Another example of the MEC being rampant, out of control and not even letting pilots vote on the issues.

So please tell me how the hell you know what our MEC does. You don't, so again, why don't you just shut the hell up.

 

[D'Angelo]

So please tell me how the hell you know what our MEC does. You don't, so again, why don't you just shut the hell up.

your own mec has admitted that management has made "opener" offers which cover every section of the contract including compensation etc. The opener should have been put to vote. If its voted down then so be it. If not then you keep working. The MEC is too cowardly to allow a true democracy though, comair included.

 

[D'Angelo]

What is it that the pilots should have voted on at this point?

ASA has membership ratification, so when the time comes, it will be the pilots of ASA not the MEC that decide on a TA.

Once again, you lips are moving, feces is frothing out of your mouth, and it is completely innaccurate.

You are a flame baiter pure and simple. I am not sure who is the bigger fool, you for your infantile form of self-amusement, or those of us who chose to respond.

There was an opener offer from the company. Pilots should be allowed to vote on ALL offers plain and simple. Unions are too cowardly to do that however then they may not get to make cool signs and clever chants.

 

[D'Angelo]

Hey crackhead.....what exactly is it you think is lavish about living paycheck to paycheck??? I have a wife and 3 kids to suppport. I pack my food everyday I fly because I can't afford to buy 3 meals a day on the road. My budget does not include any extras. I don't go out on dates with my wife because I don't have the extra cash to hire a babysitter. Much less to pay for dinner and a movie. I'm curious how you can sit over there on your freakin soapbox saying we are whining about the contract. If you think you can make my life any better by cutting my pay down BELOW the poverty line, instead of AT the poverty line I'd love to see your ideas. The way I see it, all you seem capable of is spouting ********************E out of your pie hole~!@!!!! :angryfire

Oh and FYI, I've been here for 6 years....

but I thought all pilots said per diem does not count toward your salary?? $40/day is plenty for 3 meals a day. For god sakes man dont buy booze on the overnights. That saves a lot of money right there. Prove it using actual numbers that you live at the poverty level making 6th year pay. I dont know if you are captain or an FO. Remember the national poverty line is around $15,000-$20,000/year combined income give or take a couple grand. Does your wife have a job? Having 2 incomes makes a tremendous difference. Wake up guys, its not 1950 anymore. Its ok to have your wives work.

 

[atrdriver]

your own mec has admitted that management has made "opener" offers which cover every section of the contract including compensation etc. The opener should have been put to vote. If its voted down then so be it. If not then you keep working. The MEC is too cowardly to allow a true democracy though, comair included.

Hey dumb&^%, the companies opener was concessionary in every section. Had it been put to a vote it would have been laughed at. The CNC was tasked with achieving certain improvements to our current agreement, and that is what they are doing. Again, just shut up.

 

[atrdriver]

Does your wife have a job? Having 2 incomes makes a tremendous difference. Wake up guys, its not 1950 anymore. Its ok to have your wives work.

Sure it makes a difference to have your wife work. Have any idea how much daycare for 3 kids costs idiot? More than 300/week. Thats 1200/month. That takes a very large chunk out of any additional paycheck. I sure wish you had been at CMR during the strike. All that money I sent up there would have had the disclaimer that none of it went to anything that would have benefited you.

 

[D'Angelo]

Hey dumb&^%, the companies opener was concessionary in every section. Had it been put to a vote it would have been laughed at. The CNC was tasked with achieving certain improvements to our current agreement, and that is what they are doing. Again, just shut up.

Then why was the union so scared to put it to vote? If it would have been voted down by as large a margain as you claim they would have nothing to worry about. Again what are they so worried about?

 

[fahlguy]

but I thought all pilots said per diem does not count toward your salary?? $40/day is plenty for 3 meals a day. For god sakes man dont buy booze on the overnights. That saves a lot of money right there. Prove it using actual numbers that you live at the poverty level making 6th year pay. I dont know if you are captain or an FO. Remember the national poverty line is around $15,000-$20,000/year combined income give or take a couple grand. Does your wife have a job? Having 2 incomes makes a tremendous difference. Wake up guys, its not 1950 anymore. Its ok to have your wives work.

Uh, I don't buy beer on overnights. And since childcare is expensive for 3 kids, no my wife does not have a job. However, we are not frivilous with our money. I am amazed at that as proficient as you are at dishing out sarcasm, you are hardly able to discern it when directed at you. Of course we don't actually live at poverty levels. But there is certainly not enough money to support our family without having to worry. For example, say one or more of the kids gets sick. Not only do EACH of them have to go to the doctor, but they each get their own prescriptions. Now, in real life numbers as happenend this past December this would equal almost $250 in copays and medications. Don't scoff at that either, especially when some prescriptions cost $40 a pop. IF my wife had a job, this also would have amounted to her missing almost 3 weeks of work. AND if my kids were in daycare, we would have had to continue to pay the daycare for those 3 weeks that the kids were out. My wife has worked in the past and unfortunately, the COST of her job usually outweighs any income she can bring in...since the cost of her job involves childcare, daily gas use, clothes etc.

Now, do you know how much it costs to feed a family of 5? We eat out MAYBE once a month... if that. I'm talking groceries, toilet paper, cleaning supplies etc. Power bills, water, phone, car payment (we only have 1 btw)etc. I seriously doubt you have any idea about these kinds of things, you probably still live with your mama.

$40 a day.... I'm flying 4 day trips this month, they duty in at 8 am on day 1 and duty out at 7 pm on day 4... these are 4 full days.... that's 16 days at $40 a day (according to you) it's $640. I have two issues with this... 1) There is no way I can take $640 month out of my budget for food on the road. 2) Do YOU get $640 of per diem a month????? I sure as heck don't!


I'm curious, do you have a wife or children? I find your comments about 1950 amusing. It is a joint decision for my wife to stay home.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

under-block must STAY!
there MUST be a increase in the cr2 and atr pay!
and there MUST be better Dutry rigs!

Who cares about pay? I thought you were just there to upgrade fast and move on since the "regionals" are for "loading and unloading only...no parking." <yawn>

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Maybe I am alone on this, but I feel that we should get International compensation.
I feel that our certificates are more on the line and the difficulty of the flight is increased anytime we fly outside the lower 48 states.
Has Alpa discussed this?

Not saying it is impossible to get but not one carrier in the industry that I know of (and I've looked at a lot of CBA's) gets an override for flying to the Carribean or Mexico/Canada.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

No, that is NOT correct. If you are blocked with a 80 hour line, and fly every leg underblock, for a total of 10 hours under, will you paycheck be 80 hours? NO, IT WILL BE 85 hours. Because underblock is paid on a leg by leg basis. Premium pay helps every pilot at this company, unless they fly EVERY leg overblock. You need to learn how it works before you decide to get rid of it.

I have been reading this part of the thread with interest. I don't fly for ASA but I think some are missing part of the equation (not necessarily you). However, under your language, if you have an 80 hour line and fly every leg under for a total of 70 hours of actual block time, I believe you will be paid 80 hours (70 hours in one line on your pay check and 10 hours in the premium line).

So unless I am mistaken, you have 2 lines on your pay stub. One is for actual block hours flown and the other is for premium pay (which is the underblock portion). The only thing different for you guys versus the industry norm is that you guys are paid the underblock above guarantee which means that anyone who flies less than 75 hours (or MPG) will be paid this amount above 75 hours, allowing someone with a 40 hour nap line to be paid well above 75 hours. Most good contracts provide for "Scheduled or Actual on a leg by leg (or segment) basis." Basically if you fly 2 60 minute legs and one of those you do in 50 minutes and the other you do 70 minutes you get paid 2:10. That is the norm. The only difference is that in your contract that 10 minutes of "unders" would go above guarantee thereby affecting pilots on reserve and the nap guys (and anyone else who has block time less than 75 like a guy with vacation).

Perhaps the company just wants to get rid of the "above guarantee" part? I believe Skywest gets paid like I described above...and not just "actual block time" which is what some of you think your company wants here.

-Neal

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Then why was the union so scared to put it to vote? If it would have been voted down by as large a margain as you claim they would have nothing to worry about. Again what are they so worried about?

Why would they waste their time putting it to a vote. It costs time and money to vote. We our polled regularly, our MEC and CNC know what we want and what we will and will not settle for. When they get a TA we will vote on it.

It's pretty simple really.

 

[John Pennekamp]

There was an opener offer from the company. Pilots should be allowed to vote on ALL offers plain and simple. Unions are too cowardly to do that however then they may not get to make cool signs and clever chants.

You are showing a fundamental misunderstanding of how negotiations, and government in general, works.

If EVERY company offer were put to vote, negotiations would take forever. A vote takes at least a month to complete and is expensive. You have to mail ballots out, get them back, count them, etc... Your own union at Communist Air does negotiations the same way... they do not vote on every proposal!

Our MEC has been doing monthly polling for the last three years. They have also had the negotiating committee, the MEC officers, and the P2P reps in the crew lounges daily, talking to pilots. They don't need a vote, because they KNOW what we want. And they act on the MAJORITY view, not the vocal minority... pilots like YOU.

No union is a true democracy, just like our nation is not. We elect representatives and empower them to act on our behalf. When we do that we forfeit the right to second guess and micromanage every decision. Call your US Senator and tell him/her that they should put every issue before Congress to vote... see where that gets you!

 

[D'Angelo]

They waste so much time, money, and postage using this ballot system. They could use a computer vote. If they use a computer vote only it would hardly cost them anything. A lot less time involved to count the ballots etc. So do they poll EVERY single pilot or just the vocal minority who are screaming burn the house down? They have a tendancy to listen more to the vocal miniority because it serves their intrests better. ALPOs voting system is the real problem. Everyone at least has access to a computer now-a-days. They most certainly do not poll every member. The only way to really know is to put it to vote. What they are really scared of is that they may vote how the MEC doesnt want. They need to keep the fear lies and anger alive and well.

 

[D'Angelo]

Why would they waste their time putting it to a vote. It costs time and money to vote. We our polled regularly, our MEC and CNC know what we want and what we will and will not settle for. When they get a TA we will vote on it.

It's pretty simple really.

More accurately you will get a TA that gives Dr Phil a raise. he needs to save face and is looking to you guys to fall on your sword. The question is will it happen? Only time will tell. Hes probably instructed the union to make people as angry and fearful as possible. Then lie saying if you get a industry leading contract it wont affect you one bit in regards to getting new work.

 

[John Pennekamp]

They waste so much time, money, and postage using this ballot system. They could use a computer vote. If they use a computer vote only it would hardly cost them anything. A lot less time involved to count the ballots etc. So do they poll EVERY single pilot or just the vocal minority who are screaming burn the house down? They have a tendancy to listen more to the vocal miniority because it serves their intrests better. ALPOs voting system is the real problem. Everyone at least has access to a computer now-a-days. They most certainly do not poll every member. The only way to really know is to put it to vote. What they are really scared of is that they may vote how the MEC doesnt want. They need to keep the fear lies and anger alive and well.

You are a complete fool. Every time you post, you make yourself sound like a bigger idiot.

The polling is a scientific poll done by the Wilson Center for Public Research. It is built by statisticians who have a lot more education than you. It is guaranteed to be a REPRESENTATIVE SAMPLE of all of our pilots, not just the factions.

Regarding the voting system, it is what it is. I do believe we have the oprion to vote on line now... when was the last time you voted on something?

Why do you keep saying my MEC is scared? Kindly back your opinions up with facts or debate yourself silently.

 

[John Pennekamp]

More accurately you will get a TA that gives Dr Phil a raise. he needs to save face and is looking to you guys to fall on your sword. The question is will it happen? Only time will tell. Hes probably instructed the union to make people as angry and fearful as possible. Then lie saying if you get a industry leading contract it wont affect you one bit in regards to getting new work.

Prove it D'Angelo! Let's see the facts. You don't know crap about my MEC.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I don't really care what happens to the 700 pay. If it gets some of these Career ASA guys to leave so much the better. There is no reason you should stay more than a couple years at this ********************ty company.

Well, if you ATR and 50-seat guys ******************** us on our pay, I hope the company lets us bid off of the 700. If I am going to get paid 50-seat wages, then I want to trade my 4-on, 3-off line for a 3-on, 4-off line.

Look at the seniority numbers of the 700 Captains. If they were able to bid the 50, your QOL would take a huge hit.

 

[Tomct]

Stif...don't let Adam get you all fired up, he is in the MINORITY with his thinking! If that ever happened (50 pay all around), they would be dumping the 50's as fast as they could for 70's, so we will NOT BEND on the payscale!

D'hole...go back to your flight attendant lounge and try remembering what if feels like to have a pair of b@lls! Atleast they did not BLINK!!

 

[D'Angelo]

Stif...don't let Adam get you all fired up, he is in the MINORITY with his thinking! If that ever happened (50 pay all around), they would be dumping the 50's as fast as they could for 70's, so we will NOT BEND on the payscale!

D'hole...go back to your flight attendant lounge and try remembering what if feels like to have a pair of b@lls! Atleast they did not BLINK!!

There are two of the three signs of how unions do things right there. ANGER and LIES. Anger, misdirected anger toward someone who just doesnt like unions that is all. LIES, he has to make up lies. I most certainly do have a set of b*lls. In fact the vast majority of the comair pilot group does. True we do have some female pilots but there are quite a few male pilots. No one has had surgery or alterations. True some of the FAs do have B*lls. there are some male FAs. The female FAs would take offense at that statement as there are no trannies that I know of. There may be a couple but generally there are not any here. So yes we all do have a set of b*lls except for the females but they are happy to not have a set of those. They have their own anotomical differences. Perhaps you need to go back to 9th grade and retake health class. Figuratively speaking however we most certainly are a brave pilot group. We stood up to you clowns at ASA that were demanding we sacrifice our career for your benefit and we told you to shove it. So i will say since there are some male FAs here you didnt tell an outright lie, just a partial one. Still a lie though.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I most certainly do have a set of b*lls.

The set of management ones that are bouncing of your chin don't count.

 

["GO AROUND"]

The set of management ones that are bouncing of your chin don't count.

LMAO!!!!!!! nice Stifler!