ASA Negotiations Suspended Indefinitely

[CFIT]

Who's man are you?

I do condone violence every chance I get and love it.

Well Captain Starfish, maybe you should walk right up to Jerry and let him know exactly how you feel. I'm sure that will help all us SkyWest types garner more support for you.

 

[~~~^~~~]

What ultimately will get you an agreement is your collective resolve; not the NMB or ALPA.

Make up your minds about your key positions. You're making the task of your CNC virtually impossible. They cannot get a contract or an impasse unless you are solidly behind their positions at the table.

Excellent post, thanks for your wisdom.

 

[SSDD]

I know I'm going to be called all kinds of names, but here it is. A number of you have brought up the fact that Skywest is profitable, and you want part of that, but here's the thing, part of the Skywest contract with DL states that Skywest has to have the second lowest costs of any DCI. If they can't accomplish that, the multi year contract is cancelled, period! So you can be profitable today, and be bankrupt next month.

I can guarantee you that Jerry Atkin will let you guys shutdown ASA before he lets that happen. If he has to sacrifice part of the company to save the rest, you can bet that he will.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The mediator recessed negotiations becasue the company stopped negotiating. Not the union. We have cut 8% or more off the rate increase of the original proposal and there is more to give in the process. The company gave 1% from their original proposal and has said there is nothing more to give. I call BS on that. The mediator see's ALPA giving a chunk at a time and the company not negotiating when its their turn to come off on their proposal. He then recessed both sides until the difference is lessened. Knowing full well that the ball is in the companies court. He called BS too.

So tell me how the company can't see they are getting a great ratio of cuts in negotiations?????? 8% to 1%.....So if you keep that ratio going it would be approx. a 3% raise for the 50 and ATR, a 2% cut for the 70 and that is unacceptable? I think not. That would keep us competitive, it may bring the profit margin down to SKW levels, but still accomodate growth.

GoAround, thanks for the update. I understand the percentage of give, but again I don't believe it is that simple. Allow me to use an example. As a disclaimer, this is only an example to illustrate a point.

Let's say the union starts by asking for $1000 per hour for the 70 seater. The company starts with $80. After numerous bargaining sessions, the company has moved to $90, and ALPA has moved to $500 per hour. In terms of movement, the company has moved about 11% and ALPA has moved 50%. In this example (once again for illustration purposes only), the union has moved much further than the company has. However that is only because, in this case, ALPA started further away from the industry standard. The percentage of movement is not as relevent as how far each side is from the industry standard. As I see it, the 70 seat rates currently being offered by the company are higher than the current SKYW rates and much higher than the current Northwest 78 seat rates. Am I missing something here?

Thanks again for the update.

 

[JoeMerchant]

That "standard" you speak of never goes north if pilot groups don't push that standard higher.

And what happens when pilot groups push that standard north and are rewarded with losing flying to other ALPA groups? I agree with you in a perfect world, but many of our pilot groups that push that standard are punished with shrinking and in some cases shutting down as the flying shifts. I know you understand there is a problem, as you were a member of the fee-for departure task force, and I know ALPA understands this is a problem. You can't expect people to push that standard north if it doesn't reward them personally. People aren't going to push that standard for other people.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

And what happens when pilot groups push that standard north and are rewarded with losing flying to other ALPA groups? I agree with you in a perfect world, but many of our pilot groups that push that standard are punished with shrinking and in some cases shutting down as the flying shifts. I know you understand there is a problem, as you were a member of the fee-for departure task force, and I know ALPA understands this is a problem. You can't expect people to push that standard north if it doesn't reward them personally. People aren't going to push that standard for other people.

Well if that is the case, then let's just throw our hands in the air and give up...maybe even give some back, because then we can all get growth under your hyperbole. But I know what you wrote is just that - hyperbole. We don't live in a perfect world but we also don't live in a world where everyone should cave to gain growth since pilot costs aren't necessarily the driver for a company's growth (and shouldn't be). At the very minimum, ASA pilots should be striving to push the average up, if not be at the top of the industry. But the ASA pilots already know that...the question is "how?" Many are feeling frustrated just the way the XJT pilots felt back in the summer of 2004 when they were put on ice by the NMB.

-Neal

 

[JoeMerchant]

Industry standard? Who wants industry standard? I want above standard!
How do you ever expect to raise the rates if everyone is standard? Did you
guys fail math in high school or what? If they want to transfer assets away
from ASA, then by all means, have at it. But I'm not caving on pay rates.

I agree 601, I WANT above industry standard also. There are a lot of things I WANT. If you go to ALPA's negotiating training, they actually lecture on understanding the difference between "WANTS" and "NEEDS". There is a huge difference.

The fact is, there are several aspects of our current 8 year old agreement that are STILL INDUSTRY LEADING. Our 70 seat rates, instructor section, cancellation pay and underblock are currently industry leading. In fact our 70 seat rates are now better than Northwests.

I want more money and more time off just as much as you do, but that does need to be tempered with the current industry situation.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well if that is the case, then let's just throw our hands in the air and give up...maybe even give some back, because then we can all get growth under your hyperbole. But I know what you wrote is just that - hyperbole.
-Neal

Hyperbole? No it was reality. Name me just one portfolio carrier that has had an industry leading contract and hasn't lost out to cheaper providers. If you want Hyperbole, just puruse the pages of ALPA's magazine. You will see numerous examples of it.

 

[Flying Ninja]

Here's the deal folks. Management doesn't give a rats ass about pilots because they're in the business of making money for the share holders and themselves. Pilots are just a tool (no pun intended) in that process. In any business, payroll is perhaps the most expensive part of it next to capital assets. Since you can't exactly fly without planes, you can cut where you know the people are powerless to bitch. That's why pilots (and not just ASA) are getting the fine stiffy up the exhaust pipe. You can dress it up any which way you like, but at the end of the day, it's about the rich getting richer, the poor living off the system, and the working class paying for it all. Welcome to the middle class folks.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Hyperbole? No it was reality. Name me just one portfolio carrier that has had an industry leading contract and hasn't lost out to cheaper providers. If you want Hyperbole, just puruse the pages of ALPA's magazine. You will see numerous examples of it.

Well there is technically only going to be 1 "industry leading" contract. That said, I will use Air Wisconsin and American Eagle as an example. AWAC has a great contract and they just got a nice bump in rates due to their industry metric system. Their rules are second to none and actually include a real rig system. American Eagle has some of the highest costs in the industry due to their pilot group longevity yet they still are growing. Lastly, XJT hasn't furloughed anyone nor do I expect them to...nor has XJT's management approached its pilots for any form of concessions. Heck, I see an aircraft order on the horizon perhaps.

-Neal

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well there is technically only going to be 1 "industry leading" contract. That said, I will use Air Wisconsin and American Eagle as an example. AWAC has a great contract and they just got a nice bump in rates due to their industry metric system. Their rules are second to none and actually include a real rig system. American Eagle has some of the highest costs in the industry due to their pilot group longevity yet they still are growing. Lastly, XJT hasn't furloughed anyone nor do I expect them to...nor has XJT's management approached its pilots for any form of concessions. Heck, I see an aircraft order on the horizon perhaps.

-Neal

OK, let's start with your three examples, then proceed to other industry leading contracts.

1. Air Wisconscin: Yes, one of the best, however they did lose their United contract and they did take concessions.

2. American Eagle: Not industry leading, and in reality a Bob Christy ALPA 16 year deal that hardly moved the standard forward. Cost structure is high because of the longevity, not because of an industry leading contract. In addition, they have lost flying to CHQ and TSA.

3. XJT: Lost flying from CAL at the end of the exclusivity contract. You are keeping the airplanes, but are losing CAL flying and it is being put out for bid.

Now here are some industry leading contracts and portfolio leaders that you didn't mention:

1. ALG/PDT: By far the best contracts in the regional industry. Actually had A plan retirements and top notch work rules. The new ALG/PDT is half the size of what they once were and the RJ flying went to other cheaper union carriers.

2. ACA: Another excellent contract. Stood up to Uniteds new fees and went on their own - shut down.

3. CCAir: Very good contract - Mesa purchased them, tried to get the costs in line, pilots agreed, DW refused to sign - shut down.

4. CMR: Excellent contract, struck for 89 days while flying was shifted to other ALPA carriers - now they are being shrunk, hit up for concessions, and unfortunately may be shrunk further if not sold off piece by piece.

5. Mesaba: Best contract in the NWA Airlink system. Now they are on the verge of extinction as the NWA mainline pilots have agreed to 78 seat rates less than their AVRO rates in order to "recapture" the flying.

 

[Palerider957]

I left ASA over a year ago. I knew we would never get a good contract.. You know why!!! I have never (as a whole) seen a bigger bunch of wimps in my life. Management knows you guys will cave. I have never worked at a place with more company boys who were so afraid of getting in trouble. I would even witness captains paying off fuelers so they could be on time. Nothing will change until you get a set.

Look at the above posts. What do you care what other airlines make? Why would you even speak the words industry standard? Get the best you can. ASA pilots have no respect in their company. Crew scheduling even calls you by your first name when they call you. I know this is petty, but it has to start somewhere. GROW A SET!!

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!

Three plus years of "negotiating" and still people are screaming over the ops freqs..."if we can get fuel quickly, we can still be on time!"

This group was absolutely mind boggling to me.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I agree- how many of you have to put gas in your car?

When I came here gas cost around $1.30 a gallon. Now its averaging close to $3 a gallon. Our Chevron bill used to be $150 a month- last month it was $470. Even with the cars I have now being more fuel efficient than the ones I had five years ago. I bid trips on FLICA now based on how many roundtrips to the airport I have to do in a month. With ASA's remarkably efficient scheduling department, I cannot afford to fly daylines.

Our property taxes cost $700 more last year than they did in the year 2000. My kids tuition has also gone up tremendously.

The only thing that hasn't gone up at all to compensate in ANY WAY is my paycheck.

I don't think that some people in our company took statistics class to understand the concept of averages, mean, median or mode.

I took probability and statistics, and it was one of my favorite classes. Of course it is where I learned to play craps - the best game in Vegas and a great use of probablilty.

However on to the statistics part that you brought up. You are exactly right about gas and taxes going up. However you said "the only thing that hasn't gone up at all to compensate in ANY WAY is my paycheck".

A couple of points about that statement:

Have you noticed what ticket prices have done since the Deregulation Act of 1978? As an example, in real dollars, it costs about the same today to fly from SF to NY as it did 30 years ago. On an inflation adjusted basis, it is actually cheaper. That may have something to do with it.

Also, unless you are a maxed out captain or FO, you have been getting raises every year. I have gotten a raise every year since we signed the last contract. I will be getting another one in 2 months.

 

[JoeMerchant]

From an outsider.
If this thread is any indicator of the ASA pilot group you'd better not try a strike. When you can't agree on what you want in your contract, how will you ever carry out a successful strike. It is not possible without unity.

For your own sake, stop the infighting and stand together with each other - for something. That's the only way you'll ever get anything!

Apologies in advance for the meddling and the rant.

Surplus, as usual a very well thought out and educational post. In theory, I agree with you. You and I have many of the same feelings on how we all ended up in this situation.

That being said, I believe the "infighting" you are seeing is more a result of the divide within our industry and our union. These are real differences of opinion with valid points on BOTH sides.

Your right that unity would aid in getting the best contract, however some don't want that if it results in shrinking and losing flying to the lesser paid carriers in the industry. It was a mistake to allow this "bidding war" to occur within a brand. Sadly however, ALPA has neither the will nor the resolve to solve this issue in my opinion. Therefor I believe we have to accept it as the new way of doing business. Do I like it - NO. Do I think it could be stopped - Yes, but every day that goes by makes that less likely.

The fact is, many non-union professions don't have this problem. Yet our industry, as heavily unionized as it is, can't seem to stop it. I'm sorry, but I have to lay the blame at the feet of the union. I think there are solutions, but I don't see any attempt by ALPA to change the way the system works.

I admire your tenacity and dedication, but I no longer support ALPA as I believe they are actually making the problem worse in many ways.

Feel free to "meddle and rant" anytime as I enjoy your posts and find them very informative.

 

[regionaltard]

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!

Three plus years of "negotiating" and still people are screaming over the ops freqs..."if we can get fuel quickly, we can still be on time!"

That's hilarious.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

1. Air Wisconscin: Yes, one of the best, however they did lose their United contract and they did take concessions.

They lost their United contract and went on to place most of their airplanes at US AIRWAYS and are now doing just fine. As a matter of fact, they are waiting on an arbitration decision that will re-instate their 9/11/01 industry-leading contract. Even with their concessions, their contract is still at the top of the industry and their most recent pay increase puts them well ahead of most.

2. American Eagle: Not industry leading, and in reality a Bob Christy ALPA 16 year deal that hardly moved the standard forward. Cost structure is high because of the longevity, not because of an industry leading contract. In addition, they have lost flying to CHQ and TSA.

AE is definitely at the top of the 50 seat pay scale and their work rules and other provisions are pretty solid as well. Their cost structure is high because of the longevity but also because of their rates and rules. Lastly, they haven't lost flying to CHQ and TSA. That flying that those carriers were doing was already in place for TWA. AE has, in fact, grown since AA bought TWA's assets so that argument doesn't hold water. You can bash the 16 year deal all day long (and it isn't a pretty situation) but they do get guaranteed bumps in pay and they have made nice positive changes every 4 years. Furthermore, I know you know why the 16 year deal occurred in the first place so I'll leave that argument alone. Yes, the upgrade situation there isn't pretty but overall their agreement is solid and if the flowbacks ever get recalled you will see good movement there.

3. XJT: Lost flying from CAL at the end of the exclusivity contract. You are keeping the airplanes, but are losing CAL flying and it is being put out for bid.

It isn't "me" anymore as I no longer work for XJT but I digress. CAL doesn't want those 69 RJ's being flown by XJT, correct. That doesn't mean that XJT is going to be harmed nor will its pilots be furloughed. Quite the opposite actually. It could end up being a very good thing for the XJT pilots. The point is...XJT management didn't seek concessions to keep those 69 jets with CAL. Why? They knew it wasn't the real reason they weren't getting awarded the flying. XJT pilots could have given back a few million bucks to put them in line with the CHQ pilots but XJT still wouldn't have been awarded that flying.

Now here are some industry leading contracts and portfolio leaders that you didn't mention:

Correct, I didn't. You seem to think I'm disagreeing completely with you here but I'm not. Clearly Mesa and some others have gotten the lion's share of the growth the last few years. But then again, Skywest has pretty good rates and rules and they are growing too. Go figure.

1. ALG/PDT: By far the best contracts in the regional industry. Actually had A plan retirements and top notch work rules. The new ALG/PDT is half the size of what they once were and the RJ flying went to other cheaper union carriers.

Yep, great companies...that were tied to a really bad network carrier at the time.

3. CCAir: Very good contract - Mesa purchased them, tried to get the costs in line, pilots agreed, DW refused to sign - shut down.

There is so much more to that story. Where are the CCAir pilots now? On the street? I think not. If any of them are still at Mesa (and haven't moved on), they are making more now than they were at CCAir.

The bottom line is that in this vendor/network world we live in, the network is always going to seek the cheapest carrier to support them. Sad, but true. How does the industry combat this problem? I don't know. Frankly, I don't understand why a network carrier wants a feeder anyway. Why pay a 10% margin to someone to feed your network when you can probably do it as cheaply today yourself, maintain quality control, and not have to pay out the 10% "tax" if you will to utilize someone else.

-Neal

 

[JoeMerchant]

There is so much more to that story. Where are the CCAir pilots now? On the street? I think not. If any of them are still at Mesa (and haven't moved on), they are making more now than they were at CCAir.

I agree that there is much more to that story, however probably not what you are thinking. It will be a very important part of the RJDC lawsuit.

In terms of "where they are now", those that haven't moved on work for MESA under a much worse contract. They only make more because they are flying RJs now instead of DH8s. What would they be making now under the TA that DW refused to sign? By keeping their longevity and seniority, they would be making more if DW had signed that agreement.

The bottom line is that in this vendor/network world we live in, the network is always going to seek the cheapest carrier to support them. Sad, but true. How does the industry combat this problem? I don't know. Frankly, I don't understand why a network carrier wants a feeder anyway. Why pay a 10% margin to someone to feed your network when you can probably do it as cheaply today yourself, maintain quality control, and not have to pay out the 10% "tax" if you will to utilize someone else.

-Neal

See I knew you understood what the problem is. However as a mainline pilot now, I can see you are already laying the groundwork for trying to take this flying back regardless of the cost. The Delta and NWA pilots have already done this by proposing low 70-90 seat rates.

The problem was dividing this flying up in the first place. This was a mistake. However we can't turn back time and now we are on opposite sides of the fence and we will both do what is in our own best interests. Enlightened self-interest will trump any utopian idea of "unionism" every time in this business. This will work in managements favor.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

In terms of "where they are now", those that haven't moved on work for MESA under a much worse contract. They only make more because they are flying RJs now instead of DH8s. What would they be making now under the TA that DW refused to sign? By keeping their longevity and seniority, they would be making more if DW had signed that agreement.

Can you prove this with cold hard facts and numbers?

See I knew you understood what the problem is. However as a mainline pilot now, I can see you are already laying the groundwork for trying to take this flying back regardless of the cost. The Delta and NWA pilots have already done this by proposing low 70-90 seat rates.

I've always understood the problem "Joe." And I've always thought this way about the issues...even right when I was hired at XJT in 2000. Heck, go back to the AOL message boards during that timeframe and go read what I wrote...it was the same stuff. I want what makes the most sense for both the pilot industry and my pilot group as well as my company (from an operational and financial standpoint).

-Neal

 

[shamrock]

Don't know if it means much coming from a right wing "kook", but thanks for the info about Mr. Merchant, JP.

If he won't be recalled can we at least vote him a new screen name? Seeing that name with those posts is ruining one of my favorite books.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Don't know if it means much coming from a right wing "kook", but thanks for the info about Mr. Merchant, JP.

If he won't be recalled can we at least vote him a new screen name? Seeing that name with those posts is ruining one of my favorite books.

Right wing kook? LOL

As for his screen name, I don't know why he doesn't just use his real name. Since he posts the same crap here that he does on the ALPA site, we all know who he is.