ASA Negotiations Suspended Indefinitely

[JoeMerchant]

Well there is technically only going to be 1 "industry leading" contract. That said, I will use Air Wisconsin and American Eagle as an example. AWAC has a great contract and they just got a nice bump in rates due to their industry metric system. Their rules are second to none and actually include a real rig system. American Eagle has some of the highest costs in the industry due to their pilot group longevity yet they still are growing. Lastly, XJT hasn't furloughed anyone nor do I expect them to...nor has XJT's management approached its pilots for any form of concessions. Heck, I see an aircraft order on the horizon perhaps.

-Neal

OK, let's start with your three examples, then proceed to other industry leading contracts.

1. Air Wisconscin: Yes, one of the best, however they did lose their United contract and they did take concessions.

2. American Eagle: Not industry leading, and in reality a Bob Christy ALPA 16 year deal that hardly moved the standard forward. Cost structure is high because of the longevity, not because of an industry leading contract. In addition, they have lost flying to CHQ and TSA.

3. XJT: Lost flying from CAL at the end of the exclusivity contract. You are keeping the airplanes, but are losing CAL flying and it is being put out for bid.

Now here are some industry leading contracts and portfolio leaders that you didn't mention:

1. ALG/PDT: By far the best contracts in the regional industry. Actually had A plan retirements and top notch work rules. The new ALG/PDT is half the size of what they once were and the RJ flying went to other cheaper union carriers.

2. ACA: Another excellent contract. Stood up to Uniteds new fees and went on their own - shut down.

3. CCAir: Very good contract - Mesa purchased them, tried to get the costs in line, pilots agreed, DW refused to sign - shut down.

4. CMR: Excellent contract, struck for 89 days while flying was shifted to other ALPA carriers - now they are being shrunk, hit up for concessions, and unfortunately may be shrunk further if not sold off piece by piece.

5. Mesaba: Best contract in the NWA Airlink system. Now they are on the verge of extinction as the NWA mainline pilots have agreed to 78 seat rates less than their AVRO rates in order to "recapture" the flying.

 

[Palerider957]

I left ASA over a year ago. I knew we would never get a good contract.. You know why!!! I have never (as a whole) seen a bigger bunch of wimps in my life. Management knows you guys will cave. I have never worked at a place with more company boys who were so afraid of getting in trouble. I would even witness captains paying off fuelers so they could be on time. Nothing will change until you get a set.

Look at the above posts. What do you care what other airlines make? Why would you even speak the words industry standard? Get the best you can. ASA pilots have no respect in their company. Crew scheduling even calls you by your first name when they call you. I know this is petty, but it has to start somewhere. GROW A SET!!

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!

Three plus years of "negotiating" and still people are screaming over the ops freqs..."if we can get fuel quickly, we can still be on time!"

This group was absolutely mind boggling to me.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I agree- how many of you have to put gas in your car?

When I came here gas cost around $1.30 a gallon. Now its averaging close to $3 a gallon. Our Chevron bill used to be $150 a month- last month it was $470. Even with the cars I have now being more fuel efficient than the ones I had five years ago. I bid trips on FLICA now based on how many roundtrips to the airport I have to do in a month. With ASA's remarkably efficient scheduling department, I cannot afford to fly daylines.

Our property taxes cost $700 more last year than they did in the year 2000. My kids tuition has also gone up tremendously.

The only thing that hasn't gone up at all to compensate in ANY WAY is my paycheck.

I don't think that some people in our company took statistics class to understand the concept of averages, mean, median or mode.

I took probability and statistics, and it was one of my favorite classes. Of course it is where I learned to play craps - the best game in Vegas and a great use of probablilty.

However on to the statistics part that you brought up. You are exactly right about gas and taxes going up. However you said "the only thing that hasn't gone up at all to compensate in ANY WAY is my paycheck".

A couple of points about that statement:

Have you noticed what ticket prices have done since the Deregulation Act of 1978? As an example, in real dollars, it costs about the same today to fly from SF to NY as it did 30 years ago. On an inflation adjusted basis, it is actually cheaper. That may have something to do with it.

Also, unless you are a maxed out captain or FO, you have been getting raises every year. I have gotten a raise every year since we signed the last contract. I will be getting another one in 2 months.

 

[JoeMerchant]

From an outsider.
If this thread is any indicator of the ASA pilot group you'd better not try a strike. When you can't agree on what you want in your contract, how will you ever carry out a successful strike. It is not possible without unity.

For your own sake, stop the infighting and stand together with each other - for something. That's the only way you'll ever get anything!

Apologies in advance for the meddling and the rant.

Surplus, as usual a very well thought out and educational post. In theory, I agree with you. You and I have many of the same feelings on how we all ended up in this situation.

That being said, I believe the "infighting" you are seeing is more a result of the divide within our industry and our union. These are real differences of opinion with valid points on BOTH sides.

Your right that unity would aid in getting the best contract, however some don't want that if it results in shrinking and losing flying to the lesser paid carriers in the industry. It was a mistake to allow this "bidding war" to occur within a brand. Sadly however, ALPA has neither the will nor the resolve to solve this issue in my opinion. Therefor I believe we have to accept it as the new way of doing business. Do I like it - NO. Do I think it could be stopped - Yes, but every day that goes by makes that less likely.

The fact is, many non-union professions don't have this problem. Yet our industry, as heavily unionized as it is, can't seem to stop it. I'm sorry, but I have to lay the blame at the feet of the union. I think there are solutions, but I don't see any attempt by ALPA to change the way the system works.

I admire your tenacity and dedication, but I no longer support ALPA as I believe they are actually making the problem worse in many ways.

Feel free to "meddle and rant" anytime as I enjoy your posts and find them very informative.

 

[regionaltard]

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!

Three plus years of "negotiating" and still people are screaming over the ops freqs..."if we can get fuel quickly, we can still be on time!"

That's hilarious.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

1. Air Wisconscin: Yes, one of the best, however they did lose their United contract and they did take concessions.

They lost their United contract and went on to place most of their airplanes at US AIRWAYS and are now doing just fine. As a matter of fact, they are waiting on an arbitration decision that will re-instate their 9/11/01 industry-leading contract. Even with their concessions, their contract is still at the top of the industry and their most recent pay increase puts them well ahead of most.

2. American Eagle: Not industry leading, and in reality a Bob Christy ALPA 16 year deal that hardly moved the standard forward. Cost structure is high because of the longevity, not because of an industry leading contract. In addition, they have lost flying to CHQ and TSA.

AE is definitely at the top of the 50 seat pay scale and their work rules and other provisions are pretty solid as well. Their cost structure is high because of the longevity but also because of their rates and rules. Lastly, they haven't lost flying to CHQ and TSA. That flying that those carriers were doing was already in place for TWA. AE has, in fact, grown since AA bought TWA's assets so that argument doesn't hold water. You can bash the 16 year deal all day long (and it isn't a pretty situation) but they do get guaranteed bumps in pay and they have made nice positive changes every 4 years. Furthermore, I know you know why the 16 year deal occurred in the first place so I'll leave that argument alone. Yes, the upgrade situation there isn't pretty but overall their agreement is solid and if the flowbacks ever get recalled you will see good movement there.

3. XJT: Lost flying from CAL at the end of the exclusivity contract. You are keeping the airplanes, but are losing CAL flying and it is being put out for bid.

It isn't "me" anymore as I no longer work for XJT but I digress. CAL doesn't want those 69 RJ's being flown by XJT, correct. That doesn't mean that XJT is going to be harmed nor will its pilots be furloughed. Quite the opposite actually. It could end up being a very good thing for the XJT pilots. The point is...XJT management didn't seek concessions to keep those 69 jets with CAL. Why? They knew it wasn't the real reason they weren't getting awarded the flying. XJT pilots could have given back a few million bucks to put them in line with the CHQ pilots but XJT still wouldn't have been awarded that flying.

Now here are some industry leading contracts and portfolio leaders that you didn't mention:

Correct, I didn't. You seem to think I'm disagreeing completely with you here but I'm not. Clearly Mesa and some others have gotten the lion's share of the growth the last few years. But then again, Skywest has pretty good rates and rules and they are growing too. Go figure.

1. ALG/PDT: By far the best contracts in the regional industry. Actually had A plan retirements and top notch work rules. The new ALG/PDT is half the size of what they once were and the RJ flying went to other cheaper union carriers.

Yep, great companies...that were tied to a really bad network carrier at the time.

3. CCAir: Very good contract - Mesa purchased them, tried to get the costs in line, pilots agreed, DW refused to sign - shut down.

There is so much more to that story. Where are the CCAir pilots now? On the street? I think not. If any of them are still at Mesa (and haven't moved on), they are making more now than they were at CCAir.

The bottom line is that in this vendor/network world we live in, the network is always going to seek the cheapest carrier to support them. Sad, but true. How does the industry combat this problem? I don't know. Frankly, I don't understand why a network carrier wants a feeder anyway. Why pay a 10% margin to someone to feed your network when you can probably do it as cheaply today yourself, maintain quality control, and not have to pay out the 10% "tax" if you will to utilize someone else.

-Neal

 

[JoeMerchant]

There is so much more to that story. Where are the CCAir pilots now? On the street? I think not. If any of them are still at Mesa (and haven't moved on), they are making more now than they were at CCAir.

I agree that there is much more to that story, however probably not what you are thinking. It will be a very important part of the RJDC lawsuit.

In terms of "where they are now", those that haven't moved on work for MESA under a much worse contract. They only make more because they are flying RJs now instead of DH8s. What would they be making now under the TA that DW refused to sign? By keeping their longevity and seniority, they would be making more if DW had signed that agreement.

The bottom line is that in this vendor/network world we live in, the network is always going to seek the cheapest carrier to support them. Sad, but true. How does the industry combat this problem? I don't know. Frankly, I don't understand why a network carrier wants a feeder anyway. Why pay a 10% margin to someone to feed your network when you can probably do it as cheaply today yourself, maintain quality control, and not have to pay out the 10% "tax" if you will to utilize someone else.

-Neal

See I knew you understood what the problem is. However as a mainline pilot now, I can see you are already laying the groundwork for trying to take this flying back regardless of the cost. The Delta and NWA pilots have already done this by proposing low 70-90 seat rates.

The problem was dividing this flying up in the first place. This was a mistake. However we can't turn back time and now we are on opposite sides of the fence and we will both do what is in our own best interests. Enlightened self-interest will trump any utopian idea of "unionism" every time in this business. This will work in managements favor.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

In terms of "where they are now", those that haven't moved on work for MESA under a much worse contract. They only make more because they are flying RJs now instead of DH8s. What would they be making now under the TA that DW refused to sign? By keeping their longevity and seniority, they would be making more if DW had signed that agreement.

Can you prove this with cold hard facts and numbers?

See I knew you understood what the problem is. However as a mainline pilot now, I can see you are already laying the groundwork for trying to take this flying back regardless of the cost. The Delta and NWA pilots have already done this by proposing low 70-90 seat rates.

I've always understood the problem "Joe." And I've always thought this way about the issues...even right when I was hired at XJT in 2000. Heck, go back to the AOL message boards during that timeframe and go read what I wrote...it was the same stuff. I want what makes the most sense for both the pilot industry and my pilot group as well as my company (from an operational and financial standpoint).

-Neal

 

[shamrock]

Don't know if it means much coming from a right wing "kook", but thanks for the info about Mr. Merchant, JP.

If he won't be recalled can we at least vote him a new screen name? Seeing that name with those posts is ruining one of my favorite books.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Don't know if it means much coming from a right wing "kook", but thanks for the info about Mr. Merchant, JP.

If he won't be recalled can we at least vote him a new screen name? Seeing that name with those posts is ruining one of my favorite books.

Right wing kook? LOL

As for his screen name, I don't know why he doesn't just use his real name. Since he posts the same crap here that he does on the ALPA site, we all know who he is.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The bottom line is that in this vendor/network world we live in, the network is always going to seek the cheapest carrier to support them. Sad, but true. How does the industry combat this problem? I don't know.
-Neal

Neal - I'm an idiot and still, I know the answer to that question - ALPA should allow "small jet" carriers to bind the airline with operational control into scope agreements.

Why pay a 10% margin to someone to feed your network when you can probably do it as cheaply today yourself, maintain quality control, and not have to pay out the 10% "tax" if you will to utilize someone else.

-Neal

Because the incredible level of mismanagement prevalent in the airline industry. Delta has been more or less managed by outside consultants. McKenzie and Co., does not know anything about the airline industry but they sure know how to bill a client. United and US Air had the same disease. I'm surprised at how fast America West turned things around and still not sure I believe it, but it goes to show what even mediocre airline management can do compared to the Harvard case study weenies.

Besides, much of that 10% margin is the result of organized labors' failure to stop alter ego replacements. The law is there. If ALPA & Management together did not see some benefit from the outsourcing, it would not be happening.

 

[~~~^~~~]

He and his female predator girlfiend lived it up on ALPA's dime in '98, then turned around and helped sue the union when politics caught up with them. .... ASA management doesn't like him either. Several years ago, he was almost fired for making bogus write ups on airplanes. ALPA saved his butt.

ASA's contract, which is still industry leading 7 years after the events you characterize was hard fought. Were you here then? Joe was not the only one who got called on the carpet for writing up stuff that was not in the MEL. In fact, that is what got us our current contract. Delta decided "ENOUGH" and told George and John to get it done or lose the codeshare. At that time, I was linked to Delta management and had a front row seat to the hell the ASA pilots fought through to get the contract we enjoy today.

His girlfriend....

... has nothing to do with this and doesn't even post here. She was the Vice Chair of our MEC and while I've heard stories from traumatized FO's about other female 70 Captains, I've never heard anything but good things about her.

Now he has appointed himself as a leader of an ALPA decertification drive at ASA and comes on our message board daily with anonymous individuals who have "approached him" for information on decertifying ALPA. I say good luck.

John - I am completely with you there. Not only is it a dumb move (because it is not going to happen, no way no how) but it has the real risk of undermining the efforts of the dedicated volunteers who are working very hard on making this airline a better place.

If Joe wants what he says he wants, then his best opportunity of getting that is to support our MEC and the CNC.

Call it personal attacks if you like....

Yeah, when you start trash talking other pilots' homes and girl friends, it is a personal attack.

I will call these people out when they are wrong, but if you are loyal to the ASA pilot group, these pilots are part of that group and should not be attacked on a personal level for their political beliefs.

~~~^~~~

 

[surplus1]

John Pennekamp,

In view of your last post regarding Joe Merchant -

I have no idea if your allegations are true or not true. I don't know either one of you and it wouldn't make any difference if I did. I still have to ask this question --

If you disagree with him, which obviously you do, why don't you attack his ideas instead of launching a vitriolic personal attack?

So you know who he is and you don't like him -- that's your privilege. You should be attacking his ideas and proving them wrong; not launching a purely personal attack. That's in very poor taste, even if everything you said is 100% accurate. Think about it.

It is not in YOUR best interest to do that sort of thing. It's not in the best interest of the ASA pilot group either. If you want to disrespect that person so be it, but, respect yourself in the process.

JMO

 

[Bizjet]

John Pennekamp,

In view of your last post regarding Joe Merchant -

I have no idea if your allegations are true or not true. I don't know either one of you and it wouldn't make any difference if I did. I still have to ask this question --

If you disagree with him, which obviously you do, why don't you attack his ideas instead of launching a vitriolic personal attack?

So you know who he is and you don't like him -- that's your privilege. You should be attacking his ideas and proving them wrong; not launching a purely personal attack. That's in very poor taste, even if everything you said is 100% accurate. Think about it.

It is not in YOUR best interest to do that sort of thing. It's not in the best interest of the ASA pilot group either. If you want to disrespect that person so be it, but, respect yourself in the process.

JMO

Your advice could be used by Joe Merchant. He constantly posts as fact what he contrives in his ANTI ALPA, ANTI MEC, rants. You are just missing the obvious. Just because he uses statements and presents them as facts doesn't make his post accurate. He is one who denies accountability. If it can be used to his advantage he will say it--fact or fiction. The pilots at ASA deserve to know the Real JOHN BOY and his revisionist history lessons spewed as facts. If you don't like the info don't read it. The pilots at ASA are under a constant barrage of divisive rants from someone who has done very little ALPA work. Not the 12+ plus years he claims. He is so condescending with his little "I like the way you think" or "thanks for not making personal attacks". All the while he spews forth his contrived yarns about the evil MEC and ALPA. Yes, his butt has been saved a couple of times here at ASA by the Union he so disdains because he can't control his verbal diarrhea. He also doesn’t look you in the eye when he talks. He has had all the free shots at our union and MEC he is going to get and he will be held accountable. If you think this is personal you are correct because it has always been personal with him and now he has crossed the line. He doesn’t want all of his and Mommy’s shady dealings to come to light. Those have not even been mentioned on this site. People who live in glass houses...

MODERATOR: Joe Merchant's constant barrage of misinformation is just as personal for those who work hard for our union as his claim of personal attacks against him. If he doesn't like being held accountable he should stick to the truth.

 

[crjskipper]

bizjet that is a bunch of crap and you know it. If someone disagrees with you or alpas opinion that allows you to attack them personnaly? That may be the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

These are discussion boards - if you dont like what someone says offer another opinion. But dont make some jackass claim that because you dont like it you can attack him personally.