ASA Negotiations Suspended Indefinitely

[DrunkIrishman]

Joe-

If your theory on undercutting other carriers holds true, then why hasn't Comair gotten E-170's? They gave portfolio Fred his paycut for growth and wound up getting shrunk. How do you explain this? And you cannot use the anchor of Mother Delta as the reason.

Isn't it more likely that pilot costs (of different companies, i.e. not ASA/Skywest) do not determine where airplanes fit?

 

[sweptback]

Isn't it more likely that pilot costs (of different companies, i.e. not ASA/Skywest) do not determine where airplanes fit?

Exactly.

Plus, other factors. For instance, the 700 fleet just got approved for extended overwater operations. No other regional airline has that, or at least that's what they told me in recurrent last month. You can't tell me that after all this planning and dealing with the FAA to get certified, that SkyWest is going to transfer our airplanes and the future 900s away from us to an airline not capable of overwater operations, regardless of pilot pay (which is a very small subset of overall costs).

For what it's worth...

 

[Crash Pad]

Skywest doesn't need to go overwater to get to central and south america... Just a thought

 

["GO AROUND"]

Skywest doesn't need to go overwater to get to central and south america... Just a thought

How you figure they are gonna get from ATL to south america that's not totally out of the way?

 

[atrdriver]

Look, there is no reason to go into Joe Merchant's personal stuff. Most of us at ASA know who he is, and what he stands for. Personally I am pretty violently against what he says, but that having been said, he is a nice guy, and I would gladly fly with him tomorrow. Of course he would have to stay away from topics like this or he might find himself shoved through the document door, but I'm sure he knows that...

 

[USCtrojan]

Personal attacks.

I can't believe an anonymous forum would lead anyone to "go off" on somebody's personal life. I personally agree with a lot of what Joe says, but not on all. One thought I keep thinking in the back of my head is that he's fighting for our pilot group. You may not like the way he's doing it, or just disagree, but he's fighting for ASA's pilots. I for one respect him immensely for that alone. He does a hell of a lot more for this pilot group than most I see post. Thank you Joe Merchant!

Trojan

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe-

If your theory on undercutting other carriers holds true, then why hasn't Comair gotten E-170's? They gave portfolio Fred his paycut for growth and wound up getting shrunk. How do you explain this? And you cannot use the anchor of Mother Delta as the reason.

Isn't it more likely that pilot costs (of different companies, i.e. not ASA/Skywest) do not determine where airplanes fit?

1. CMR still has some of the highest costs. Their paycuts haven't taken affect because of the AFA contract.

2. Employee costs are the single largest controllable cost at an airline. Of that, the pilot costs are the highest portion.

3. While I don't believe pilot costs are the ONLY consideration, I do believe they play a large part.

4. Of the major carriers who imploy a portfolio concept, not a single portfolio carrier with the highest costs has not shrunk or becom extinct.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Of course he would have to stay away from topics like this or he might find himself shoved through the document door, but I'm sure he knows that...

I wish I could fit through that door... I'm afraid you would have to throw me out the cargo door instead...:beer:

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal - I'm an idiot and still, I know the answer to that question - ALPA should allow "small jet" carriers to bind the airline with operational control into scope agreements.Because the incredible level of mismanagement prevalent in the airline industry. Delta has been more or less managed by outside consultants. McKenzie and Co., does not know anything about the airline industry but they sure know how to bill a client. United and US Air had the same disease. I'm surprised at how fast America West turned things around and still not sure I believe it, but it goes to show what even mediocre airline management can do compared to the Harvard case study weenies.

ALPA has no "prohibition" on trying to do that Fins. The hard part is getting that MEC to agree with you. We actually put that sort of proposal on the table initially at XJT and we were laughed out of the room. Needless to say, we knew the reality of the situation and that proposal didn't stay on the table very long.

For clarification by the way, it is McKinsey, not "McKenzie." They are the best at helping management run their organizations believe it or not. Whether they can help on the airline specific stuff, who knows. But they are the very best management consulting firm out there. And I guarantee you that both US AIRWAYS and America West both employed management consulting firms as well as bankruptcy/restructuring firms. Actually, I know they did...go check out www.seaburygroup.com.

Besides, much of that 10% margin is the result of organized labors' failure to stop alter ego replacements. The law is there. If ALPA & Management together did not see some benefit from the outsourcing, it would not be happening.

Just because it was never stopped by ALPA doesn't mean that ALPA endorses it Fins. That is a ridiculous claim to make frankly. I'm sure if ALPA and the APA could do it all over again they would never have allowed 50 seat jets to go to regional airlines.

-Neal

 

[JoeMerchant]

Just because it was never stopped by ALPA doesn't mean that ALPA endorses it Fins. That is a ridiculous claim to make frankly. I'm sure if ALPA and the APA could do it all over again they would never have allowed 50 seat jets to go to regional airlines.

-Neal

I might believe that if they didn't keep creating even more alter-ego carriers. The NWA MEC just created yet another one that we all have to compete against. The 78 seat rate is less than ASA's current rate in both seats and with loss of longevity, the costs will be even lower than MESAs. It doesn't seem to me that ALPA has learned from it's past mistakes. They keep making the same one over and over again.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

2. Employee costs are the single largest controllable cost at an airline. Of that, the pilot costs are the highest portion.

Pilots are approximately 5% of total cost. (Handbook of Airline Economics) So you tell me; if we give them an 8% paycut, that would equate to ~1/3% total cost reduction, why should we get anything over someone else? The cost difference is negligible.

On the ALPA front:

I agree with you on some, but not all. I believe that our local level ALPA members are trying to do what is best for us at ASA. However, I believe that ALPA on the national level is completely useless. In fact, I do believe they are helping to destroy our profession.

 

[Crash Pad]

How you figure they are gonna get from ATL to south america that's not totally out of the way?

Salt Lake... straight south... Need to go from the ATL... no sweat go the long way until you get approval.

 

[ohplease!]

Salt Lake... straight south... Need to go from the ATL... no sweat go the long way until you get approval.

one thing wrong with your solution....the routes are for Delta and Delta wants them flown from ATL and the routes will be flown from ATL by ASA.

 

["GO AROUND"]

Salt Lake... straight south... Need to go from the ATL... no sweat go the long way until you get approval.

You would fit in great with all the other useless idiots in managment that are running airlines into the ground. Go the long way and burn twice the gas, twice as long, BRILLIANT!!!!

 

[~~~^~~~]

ALPA has no "prohibition" on trying to do that Fins. The hard part is getting that MEC to agree with you.

-Neal

Our MEC asked to bind Delta in scope negotiations, ALPA not only said no - they said hell no then called in threats to take the MEC into recievership. Here are the letters with ALPA's President's signature.

http://www.rjdefense.com/alpaletters.pdf

ALPA does endorse alter ego bargaining. How can you possibly say that ALPA doesn't endorse alter ego competitors when Compass and Mid Atlantic and a small host of other alter egos were created as a result of mainline scope that sought to place airplanes outside of mainline, but to be flown by mainline pilots at cut rate prices. Further, when mainline pilots seek a "bargaining credit" for outsourcing flying, clearly they seek to recieve some benefit by selling their scope and the "credit" can only come from money saved by paying sub standard wages at the small jet providers. And in fact, every one of these agreements was endorsed by ALPA's President, Duane Woerth.

And I can not believe that any one is defending McKinsey - especially a person who supports labor. "Mark to Market" was a McKinsey idea that Jeff Skiiling brought with him to Enron. Leo Mullins was another McKinsey puke and in the book "An Airline without a Captain" the blame for Delta's implosion was placed pretty squarely at the consultants who's make work projects not only wasted huge amounts of company resources, they also lowered productivity from the employees that were left after they cut, slashed and burned through labor.

McKinsey was the worst part of Ron Allen's 7.5 plan. Delta never has and never will recover from the harm these self interested, non-teamembers, carpetbagging, bed wetting, buger eatin, Harvard pukes have done.

Stop listening to rhetoric and look what ALPA does. Actions speak....

~~~^~~~