ASA FAs about to sell out on PBS

[JoeMerchant]

I'm gonna call BS on most of the whining about PBS. Most of the captains I fly with who consider themselves screwed by PBS, when questioned, have absolutely no idea how to bid. Moreover, when asked if they even bother to look at the pairings, tell me they "don't have the time for it". Well, if you aren't gonna bother to investigate the flying available or learn to use it correctly, you get what you deserve. If you listen to the guy who tells you not to bother bidding days off in any layer but #1 because he believes if you can't get those days off in layer 1 you won't get them in subsequent layers, you get what you deserve. If you just ask for trips that start after 1pm and end before 12pm, there might be a wide variety of trips that satisfy those qualities (and many of them might otherwise suck), or there might only be two, and they might suck, but you could have better choices if you open yourself up to an hour on either side. As for the number one CP in DEN, I've flown with him, on a terrible trip while I was sitting rsv post-ioe. He gets junk because he is so non-specific about trips because... He DOESN'T BOTHER TO LOOK AT PARINGS.
If you're upset because you can't get commutable weekends off or whatever it's either because you're not bidding right or you can't hold it because people senior to you also want it. PBS success depends upon your bidding and your seniority. Just like hard lines.

I have heard this from more than one person....PBS requires more effort to bid and more effort to learn the system.....Many pilots are lazy when it comes to this kind of thing and don't bother to learn how to use it....

 

[PCL_128]

I have heard this from more than one person....PBS requires more effort to bid and more effort to learn the system.....Many pilots are lazy when it comes to this kind of thing and don't bother to learn how to use it....

You're correct, Joe. PBS requires extensive training at the beginning, plus training of all newhires, plus a lot more work on your bid every single month. Basically, it just makes the process of bidding much more difficult and time consuming. The only time this isn't the case is if you bid for the same thing every month. Most people have different days off needed or different preferences from month to month, so it takes time to formulate a bid every month. Navtech makes the system easier than other PBS systems, but it's still more time consuming than old-fashioned line bidding.

 

[Jmoney]

Just Damn....

We never seem to run out of idiots who are willing to try something and "see if it really sucks!"

I am trying to warn people that PBS gives the company way too much leeway and way too much control! ASA would quite literally have their way with us-no turning back!

Sure it would be nice-as CFI implies, if we all had great schedules, but guess what? There will be some suck involved! If there has to be suck, I don't want to "spread it out all over" or to make "all the lines equally bad."

I think your hobby-CFI, is to engage in useless platitudes. Every one of your responses has been the equivalent of:

-"If the world was made of fudge, we wouldn't buy it in the store."

-"Candy canes are yummy, what if all trees were made of them? There would be plenty for everyone on the planet."

-or an actual one of equal value:

-"I choose not to accept everything at face value, just because something has been done a certain way historically doesn't mean it's the right way."

-GEEZ-CAPTAIN OBVIOUS!
-ARE YOU SERIOUS????

-All this idealistic crap and platonic flatuence is going to kill our pilot group! If we vote this PBS garbage in, it will not go away, there are no "do-overs" here-we will be screwed from now on!

BTW-Go find someone else who has the intellectual capacity and patience to wax philosophical on.....

Sure if we all could get paid millions to sit around and scratch our nether regions all day, life would be grand..... But I am telling you that right here, in this life, in this world, in this job, we are in for a world-class screwing if we are not careful!

 

[Gulf-front]

Just No

Pilots hate to lose control. PBS will do just that.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

DINGDINGDING,
We have a winner! SKYW bought a system that was rejected by every other carrier that was "exploring" the PBS process. SKYW wants it because it removes ALL transparency from the bidding process, you will in essence become a reserve. I had talked to the #1 Capt. in DEN right after he was awarded a whole bunch of crap that he hadn't bid. Seems he always bids specific 4 day commutable trips and was awarded 2,3 and 4 day mostly un-commutable trips. The trips he originally bid, were awarded to someone else.


I'm gonna call BS on most of the whining about PBS. Most of the captains I fly with who consider themselves screwed by PBS, when questioned, have absolutely no idea how to bid. Moreover, when asked if they even bother to look at the pairings, tell me they "don't have the time for it". Well, if you aren't gonna bother to investigate the flying available or learn to use it correctly, you get what you deserve. If you listen to the guy who tells you not to bother bidding days off in any layer but #1 because he believes if you can't get those days off in layer 1 you won't get them in subsequent layers, you get what you deserve. If you just ask for trips that start after 1pm and end before 12pm, there might be a wide variety of trips that satisfy those qualities (and many of them might otherwise suck), or there might only be two, and they might suck, but you could have better choices if you open yourself up to an hour on either side. As for the number one CP in DEN, I've flown with him, on a terrible trip while I was sitting rsv post-ioe. He gets junk because he is so non-specific about trips because... He DOESN'T BOTHER TO LOOK AT PARINGS.
If you're upset because you can't get commutable weekends off or whatever it's either because you're not bidding right or you can't hold it because people senior to you also want it. PBS success depends upon your bidding and your seniority. Just like hard lines.

I hate to burst your bubble...but, I look at all the pairings, I've gotten "advice" from 3 different PBS trainers and read up on PBS and it won't make any difference if the pairings that are available suck!! Pay values and days off are down when compared to the hard lines prior to PBS!

 

[Cpt Oveur]

I have heard both from pilots and from management at Continental that the system they use there is said to be changed when the next contract is inked, potentially end of this year. Growing frustation on the lack of consistency. Pilots who input the same parameters and variables month after month will end up with drastically different schedules. If any one pilot changes their input from one month to the next, it can greatly affect everyone junior to that pilot.

What companies out there use PBS and are satisfied with its results?

 

[PBRstreetgang]

I hate to burst your bubble...but, I look at all the pairings, I've gotten "advice" from 3 different PBS trainers and read up on PBS and it won't make any difference if the pairings that are available suck!! Pay values and days off are down when compared to the hard lines prior to PBS!

AhAAA,
The CP{JM} in question, is very specific about his bid, in fact he bids specific pairings, and thats what he did when he got hosed. I too reviewed all the pairings I was interested(4 day) and bid accordingly. I had KH, the manager in charge of PBS review my bid and got "I don't know why you got that". My bidding was very specific as far as the type of trip, but very loose in regards to days start/finish. In other words in his words "a very reasonable bid" There is NO transparency to this system unless you are management. If the company wants you to fly more, they just up the line average, less just drop it, you have no say and unless you have contract language to cover all the details(impossible), you will be a pawn to even a larger degree. Why do think the company wants it so bad? Why would SKYW a historically skinflint cheap company pay real money for anything that wouldn't return an immediate positive return on the investment? If you allow this onto the property in any form, most of the pilots on the seniority list will hate it with a passion. Why do you think there is a complete section of the SAPA forum dedicated to PBS, and most posts are titled WTF?
PBR

 

[ifly4food]

My principles were and will be the same at 18 days, 18 months, and at 18 years of service as an airline pilot. Sounds like yours' aren't. Well, that's okay. This IS the United States of America.

For reflection, when was the last time you heard of someone defecting to Cuba? How 'bout North Korea? China? Probably not recently.

I choose not to accept everything presented to me at face value. Just because something has been done a certain way historically doesn't mean that it's the right way. I find this aspect of my personal character quite reassuring when I find myself discussing something of importance with an intellectually-challenged person.

BTW, I've been a policeman; You?

So you're saying we should chuck the seniority system and spread things out more evenly? This coming from a pilot at the company less than 2 years? Am I getting this right? Are you kidding me?

 

[ifly4food]

Bad lines are mostly a function of the pairings being generated. How does PBS fix that? PBS doesn't generate pairings. All it does it order the pairings already created in order of your preferences. The holy grail is a system that dynamically generates both pairings and lines at the same time... but I don't believe that system exists yet. If it did, it would require something like a Cray supercomputer to work, and you know that ASA isn't spending the money on that.

This is the point. PBS will be using whatever pairings ASA's incompetent crew planners make, which is whatever pairings the IBM 286 they have spits out, unfiltered. The only difference we will see with PBS is a complete loss of the ability to "defensive bid", in other words, you bid your top choices, then bid what you can live with. With PBS (as implemented at most airlines) you either get your dream line, or get whatever they give you. Then, as Sweptback said, you're stuck with it unless you can mutual swap.

Now, I think we know that AFA at ASA doesn't have the best record for standing up to management. they will most likely allow ASA to present them a program (probably the one SKW uses) and lat ASA sell it to them. And AFA leadership will take it because NONE of them will have to deal with the down side. None of them even fly.

I fear that Jmoney may be correct. ASA is going to use the FAs to back door us on a very crappy PBS system. And if ALPA was on the ball, they'd be lobbying the AFA right now to include them in the discussion, or notifying ASA that they will be re-doing PBS if we don't like what they've invested in.

 

[CFI2766]

So you're saying we should chuck the seniority system and spread things out more evenly? This coming from a pilot at the company less than 2 years? Am I getting this right? Are you kidding me?

No, I specifically did NOT say that. I did say that I don't know of a better way. Re-read, please.

Getting the best of what's avaialble is one thing, which I do support, but re-engineering the game to take from those who have the least (QOL, Pay, Prospects) to give to those who have the most, well, that's the most republican thought I've ever heard you support...

 

[CFI2766]

This is the point. PBS will be using whatever pairings ASA's incompetent crew planners make, which is whatever pairings the IBM 286 they have spits out, unfiltered. The only difference we will see with PBS is a complete loss of the ability to "defensive bid", in other words, you bid your top choices, then bid what you can live with. With PBS (as implemented at most airlines) you either get your dream line, or get whatever they give you. Then, as Sweptback said, you're stuck with it unless you can mutual swap.

Now, I think we know that AFA at ASA doesn't have the best record for standing up to management. they will most likely allow ASA to present them a program (probably the one SKW uses) and lat ASA sell it to them. And AFA leadership will take it because NONE of them will have to deal with the down side. None of them even fly.

I fear that Jmoney may be correct. ASA is going to use the FAs to back door us on a very crappy PBS system. And if ALPA was on the ball, they'd be lobbying the AFA right now to include them in the discussion, or notifying ASA that they will be re-doing PBS if we don't like what they've invested in.

Getting back to PBS: Of course ASA will want to provide us with the PBS system that that benefits the company. Why else would the collective airline management support this idea?

The pairings and flying that exist prior to PBS are a big part of the overall QOL equation that pilots try to balance when bidding month to month. JMoney is right: PBS will protect the interests of the company, not the interests of the pilots, whether senior or junior.

Also, I'm HIGHLY opposed to the AFA leading the pilot group into PBS. I reallly hope that the MEC is quietly, but actively, engaging the AFA on this matter.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Question is, do the mid level and junior FAs really know what they're getting themselves into? And how will their precedent affect us when we finally agree to it?

Actually, a lot of my FA friends are against it. In fact, the AFA leadership isn't very popular right now. They have a meeting this week and it should be very interesting!

 

[Jmoney]

Damn......

No, I specifically did NOT say that. I did say that I don't know of a better way. Re-read, please.

Getting the best of what's avaialble is one thing, which I do support, but re-engineering the game to take from those who have the least (QOL, Pay, Prospects) to give to those who have the most, well, that's the most republican thought I've ever heard you support...

-If you can actually hold a job, pay taxes on your income and then bitch about giving too little to "those who have the least," then, sir, there is no possibility of us helping you here.

-You obviously have much bigger problems than PBS, so why not get out the old checkbook and write out a big fatty for some crackhead to erase your sense of guilt? Gold star for your generousity-but just don't get too crazy with my earnings.

-Leave the nuts and bolts of career stuff to those of us who still have some damn sense!

 

[Gr82Aviate]

AhAAA,
The CP{JM} in question, is very specific about his bid, in fact he bids specific pairings, and thats what he did when he got hosed. I too reviewed all the pairings I was interested(4 day) and bid accordingly. I had KH, the manager in charge of PBS review my bid and got "I don't know why you got that". My bidding was very specific as far as the type of trip, but very loose in regards to days start/finish. In other words in his words "a very reasonable bid" There is NO transparency to this system unless you are management. If the company wants you to fly more, they just up the line average, less just drop it, you have no say and unless you have contract language to cover all the details(impossible), you will be a pawn to even a larger degree. Why do think the company wants it so bad? Why would SKYW a historically skinflint cheap company pay real money for anything that wouldn't return an immediate positive return on the investment? If you allow this onto the property in any form, most of the pilots on the seniority list will hate it with a passion. Why do you think there is a complete section of the SAPA forum dedicated to PBS, and most posts are titled WTF?
PBR

Your conversation with KH sounds almost identical to the one I had with him...and yet one of the PBS trainers here in our domicile who is the most junior line holder consistently gets better lines than most of those above him(hint: he apparently has the ability to look at everyone elses bids, with or without their permission)!

 

[spg2bmd]

My vag is wet,,, ooops.

 

[ifly4food]

Also, I'm HIGHLY opposed to the AFA leading the pilot group into PBS. I reallly hope that the MEC is quietly, but actively, engaging the AFA on this matter.

The sad part is that they probably aren't doing it are are not welcome to. My experience with the AFA is that they have an attitude of "we're big girls we don't need a bunch of pilots taking care of us". They'll probably go it alone just to prove they can. And we'll be stuck with their choice. PBS, take it or leave it in three years.

 

[CFI2766]

-If you can actually hold a job, pay taxes on your income and then bitch about giving too little to "those who have the least," then, sir, there is no possibility of us helping you here.

-You obviously have much bigger problems than PBS, so why not get out the old checkbook and write out a big fatty for some crackhead to erase your sense of guilt? Gold star for your generousity-but just don't get too crazy with my earnings.

-Leave the nuts and bolts of career stuff to those of us who still have some damn sense!

Nuts.

 

[Flybywire44]

Is there any pilot or flight attendant group that is happy with PBS? CAL hates it...

 

[neecy]

ASA and PBS

I do not know everything about PBS but here is what AFA is saying. We are looking at the NavTech provider that Alaska Airline F/As and Delta piolts use purely senority based.
We are looking at 40 preferences you can choose from including a "reasons report" why you were awarded or denied a pairing.

 

[Flybywire44]

What reason is there for it to be denied? Because someone senior got it instead of you? This will completely change QOL. They will no longer have the ability to bid VaCay on pairings to have the pairings dropped for a 20 hour month at guarantee.

This will some the company a lot of money though...

What do the DAL folks say about this system?

 

[PCL_128]

Well, 40 preferences is horrible. They must be deactivating a whole bunch of them. The software allows for several hundred. But Navtech is the best software, so that's at least some good news for you guys.

 

[neecy]

Yes it is a huge money and time saver for the company, I think it is going to be a hard sell because of the QOL issues. As far as vacation goes I know they are still working on the numbers. It is suppose to be built to reflect what the average flight attendant currently flies in vacation months

 

[lonestarpilot20]

Okay I don't post here very often, I prefer to stay on the sidelines and watch the mudslinging from afar. However, in the case of PBS my response is a resounding no. My feeling is that we will give up way to much power to the company and will get screwed in the end.

I am nearing the 50% mark on the 200 Capt. list and have been able to hold weekends or partial weekends off for a few months. I am convinced that what ever sysytem we get will wind up being no better than the former relief system we had. Sorry no dice. Been there done that. What I expect to happen over the next few months is the lines to be particlarly crappy with the company (read SH) stating that "if we only had PBS things would be better." Umm BS! As far as I am concerned SH can go f$*k himself and can only hope the rumor is true that he is on his way out.

On a side not that this really matters to us, but food for thought. Talking to a number of buddies over at SWA says that the company has been pushing for PBS, but the pilot group there won't even discuss it. Something about turning a week of vacation into 2 or more.

I've also had conversations with my FAs and convinced them that they should vote against PBS and encourage others to do so.

Just my .02

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Uh, guys- there is no requirement that we EVER agree to any PBS system. Why is everyone convinced it will happen?

Bueller?

 

[ifly4food]

Uh, guys- there is no requirement that we EVER agree to any PBS system. Why is everyone convinced it will happen?

Bueller?

There's no requirement? Three years from last November, we'll be back in Section 6 negotiations in a very weak economy. The company will have us over a barrel, especially if the FAs already have PBS. We'll end up taking concessions if we don't give it up.

 

[CFI2766]

There's no requirement? Three years from last November, we'll be back in Section 6 negotiations in a very weak economy. The company will have us over a barrel, especially if the FAs already have PBS. We'll end up taking concessions if we don't give it up.

Three years from now the economy will have recovered. As long as you consider 'recovered' as $5 a gallon of unleaded gas and a complete abandonment of company provided/assisted health care.

 

[lonestarpilot20]

There's no requirement? Three years from last November, we'll be back in Section 6 negotiations in a very weak economy. The company will have us over a barrel, especially if the FAs already have PBS. We'll end up taking concessions if we don't give it up.

That may not necessarily be the case. Certainly the economy is going to be weak for sometime, and I think biggest shake out is going to occur in the regional sector. I don't think we'll see mergers, it will be much easier to let weaker carriers die on the vine (think Mesa). Skywest with ASA should be in a good position, so I don't think they'll have us over a barrel. I do think that they will try every trick in the book to get us to bite on PBS. I think we need to let the company know that after we vote no on any changes to our CBA to allow PBS, that we will never talk about PBS again.

Again just my .02

 

[propjockey]

I hardly ever visit flightinfo anymore, and even less often write anything, but I feel passionate about this issue. Specifically for you guys at ASA -- I'm also a SkyWest pilot. I 100% agree with PBR and GR8. If ASA comes to you peddling the same piece of crap software that we got, homemade by a company called AOS, (apparently a bunch of Dixie College IT department flunkies who don't know the first thing about airlines),
RUN THE OTHER WAY!

By the way, AOS is the same company that wrote the software that puts together our crappy pairings!!

BAD pairings + WORSE PBS software = $%#@ sandwiches every day.

We probably would have been better off if they had outsourced writing our PBS software to India.

 

[ifly4food]

Three years from now the economy will have recovered. As long as you consider 'recovered' as $5 a gallon of unleaded gas and a complete abandonment of company provided/assisted health care.

Considering that the economy isn't even "officially" in recession yet, and past cycles indicate airline recessions lasting 5 years, I think we will still be in recession by then. But again, that's just from looking at past cycles.

 

[Snapperhead]

I hardly ever visit flightinfo anymore, and even less often write anything, but I feel passionate about this issue. Specifically for you guys at ASA -- I'm also a SkyWest pilot. I 100% agree with PBR and GR8. If ASA comes to you peddling the same piece of crap software that we got, homemade by a company called AOS, (apparently a bunch of Dixie College IT department flunkies who don't know the first thing about airlines),
RUN THE OTHER WAY!

By the way, AOS is the same company that wrote the software that puts together our crappy pairings!!

BAD pairings + WORSE PBS software = $%#@ sandwiches every day.

We probably would have been better off if they had outsourced writing our PBS software to India.

I agree with you about the bad pairings+worse software=bad times. We had a PB system at TWA and loved it though. It was a company called AdOpt. The union worked with the PB department to ensure the pairing were up to snuff on a month to month basis too. How do I know?, my wife was the manager of the Pref Bid Department.
You guys are dead on about the pairing being legit before launching the software. Also, the software must be legit/transparent/whatever you want to call it. I really don't believe ASA can handle this system properly.
If our union believes that PBS is coming in the not too distant future, they need to be talking with the AFA to ensure that the software company they choose is kosher. Also, things like picking up open time, dropping trips, etc...needs to be fully automated, and taken out of the hands of our scheduling department. End of rant.