ASA FAs about to sell out on PBS

[JoeMerchant]

I'm gonna call BS on most of the whining about PBS. Most of the captains I fly with who consider themselves screwed by PBS, when questioned, have absolutely no idea how to bid. Moreover, when asked if they even bother to look at the pairings, tell me they "don't have the time for it". Well, if you aren't gonna bother to investigate the flying available or learn to use it correctly, you get what you deserve. If you listen to the guy who tells you not to bother bidding days off in any layer but #1 because he believes if you can't get those days off in layer 1 you won't get them in subsequent layers, you get what you deserve. If you just ask for trips that start after 1pm and end before 12pm, there might be a wide variety of trips that satisfy those qualities (and many of them might otherwise suck), or there might only be two, and they might suck, but you could have better choices if you open yourself up to an hour on either side. As for the number one CP in DEN, I've flown with him, on a terrible trip while I was sitting rsv post-ioe. He gets junk because he is so non-specific about trips because... He DOESN'T BOTHER TO LOOK AT PARINGS.
If you're upset because you can't get commutable weekends off or whatever it's either because you're not bidding right or you can't hold it because people senior to you also want it. PBS success depends upon your bidding and your seniority. Just like hard lines.

I have heard this from more than one person....PBS requires more effort to bid and more effort to learn the system.....Many pilots are lazy when it comes to this kind of thing and don't bother to learn how to use it....

 

[PCL_128]

I have heard this from more than one person....PBS requires more effort to bid and more effort to learn the system.....Many pilots are lazy when it comes to this kind of thing and don't bother to learn how to use it....

You're correct, Joe. PBS requires extensive training at the beginning, plus training of all newhires, plus a lot more work on your bid every single month. Basically, it just makes the process of bidding much more difficult and time consuming. The only time this isn't the case is if you bid for the same thing every month. Most people have different days off needed or different preferences from month to month, so it takes time to formulate a bid every month. Navtech makes the system easier than other PBS systems, but it's still more time consuming than old-fashioned line bidding.

 

[Jmoney]

Just Damn....

We never seem to run out of idiots who are willing to try something and "see if it really sucks!"

I am trying to warn people that PBS gives the company way too much leeway and way too much control! ASA would quite literally have their way with us-no turning back!

Sure it would be nice-as CFI implies, if we all had great schedules, but guess what? There will be some suck involved! If there has to be suck, I don't want to "spread it out all over" or to make "all the lines equally bad."

I think your hobby-CFI, is to engage in useless platitudes. Every one of your responses has been the equivalent of:

-"If the world was made of fudge, we wouldn't buy it in the store."

-"Candy canes are yummy, what if all trees were made of them? There would be plenty for everyone on the planet."

-or an actual one of equal value:

-"I choose not to accept everything at face value, just because something has been done a certain way historically doesn't mean it's the right way."

-GEEZ-CAPTAIN OBVIOUS!
-ARE YOU SERIOUS????

-All this idealistic crap and platonic flatuence is going to kill our pilot group! If we vote this PBS garbage in, it will not go away, there are no "do-overs" here-we will be screwed from now on!

BTW-Go find someone else who has the intellectual capacity and patience to wax philosophical on.....

Sure if we all could get paid millions to sit around and scratch our nether regions all day, life would be grand..... But I am telling you that right here, in this life, in this world, in this job, we are in for a world-class screwing if we are not careful!

 

[Gulf-front]

Just No

Pilots hate to lose control. PBS will do just that.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

DINGDINGDING,
We have a winner! SKYW bought a system that was rejected by every other carrier that was "exploring" the PBS process. SKYW wants it because it removes ALL transparency from the bidding process, you will in essence become a reserve. I had talked to the #1 Capt. in DEN right after he was awarded a whole bunch of crap that he hadn't bid. Seems he always bids specific 4 day commutable trips and was awarded 2,3 and 4 day mostly un-commutable trips. The trips he originally bid, were awarded to someone else.


I'm gonna call BS on most of the whining about PBS. Most of the captains I fly with who consider themselves screwed by PBS, when questioned, have absolutely no idea how to bid. Moreover, when asked if they even bother to look at the pairings, tell me they "don't have the time for it". Well, if you aren't gonna bother to investigate the flying available or learn to use it correctly, you get what you deserve. If you listen to the guy who tells you not to bother bidding days off in any layer but #1 because he believes if you can't get those days off in layer 1 you won't get them in subsequent layers, you get what you deserve. If you just ask for trips that start after 1pm and end before 12pm, there might be a wide variety of trips that satisfy those qualities (and many of them might otherwise suck), or there might only be two, and they might suck, but you could have better choices if you open yourself up to an hour on either side. As for the number one CP in DEN, I've flown with him, on a terrible trip while I was sitting rsv post-ioe. He gets junk because he is so non-specific about trips because... He DOESN'T BOTHER TO LOOK AT PARINGS.
If you're upset because you can't get commutable weekends off or whatever it's either because you're not bidding right or you can't hold it because people senior to you also want it. PBS success depends upon your bidding and your seniority. Just like hard lines.

I hate to burst your bubble...but, I look at all the pairings, I've gotten "advice" from 3 different PBS trainers and read up on PBS and it won't make any difference if the pairings that are available suck!! Pay values and days off are down when compared to the hard lines prior to PBS!

 

[Cpt Oveur]

I have heard both from pilots and from management at Continental that the system they use there is said to be changed when the next contract is inked, potentially end of this year. Growing frustation on the lack of consistency. Pilots who input the same parameters and variables month after month will end up with drastically different schedules. If any one pilot changes their input from one month to the next, it can greatly affect everyone junior to that pilot.

What companies out there use PBS and are satisfied with its results?

 

[PBRstreetgang]

I hate to burst your bubble...but, I look at all the pairings, I've gotten "advice" from 3 different PBS trainers and read up on PBS and it won't make any difference if the pairings that are available suck!! Pay values and days off are down when compared to the hard lines prior to PBS!

AhAAA,
The CP{JM} in question, is very specific about his bid, in fact he bids specific pairings, and thats what he did when he got hosed. I too reviewed all the pairings I was interested(4 day) and bid accordingly. I had KH, the manager in charge of PBS review my bid and got "I don't know why you got that". My bidding was very specific as far as the type of trip, but very loose in regards to days start/finish. In other words in his words "a very reasonable bid" There is NO transparency to this system unless you are management. If the company wants you to fly more, they just up the line average, less just drop it, you have no say and unless you have contract language to cover all the details(impossible), you will be a pawn to even a larger degree. Why do think the company wants it so bad? Why would SKYW a historically skinflint cheap company pay real money for anything that wouldn't return an immediate positive return on the investment? If you allow this onto the property in any form, most of the pilots on the seniority list will hate it with a passion. Why do you think there is a complete section of the SAPA forum dedicated to PBS, and most posts are titled WTF?
PBR

 

[ifly4food]

My principles were and will be the same at 18 days, 18 months, and at 18 years of service as an airline pilot. Sounds like yours' aren't. Well, that's okay. This IS the United States of America.

For reflection, when was the last time you heard of someone defecting to Cuba? How 'bout North Korea? China? Probably not recently.

I choose not to accept everything presented to me at face value. Just because something has been done a certain way historically doesn't mean that it's the right way. I find this aspect of my personal character quite reassuring when I find myself discussing something of importance with an intellectually-challenged person.

BTW, I've been a policeman; You?

So you're saying we should chuck the seniority system and spread things out more evenly? This coming from a pilot at the company less than 2 years? Am I getting this right? Are you kidding me?

 

[ifly4food]

Bad lines are mostly a function of the pairings being generated. How does PBS fix that? PBS doesn't generate pairings. All it does it order the pairings already created in order of your preferences. The holy grail is a system that dynamically generates both pairings and lines at the same time... but I don't believe that system exists yet. If it did, it would require something like a Cray supercomputer to work, and you know that ASA isn't spending the money on that.

This is the point. PBS will be using whatever pairings ASA's incompetent crew planners make, which is whatever pairings the IBM 286 they have spits out, unfiltered. The only difference we will see with PBS is a complete loss of the ability to "defensive bid", in other words, you bid your top choices, then bid what you can live with. With PBS (as implemented at most airlines) you either get your dream line, or get whatever they give you. Then, as Sweptback said, you're stuck with it unless you can mutual swap.

Now, I think we know that AFA at ASA doesn't have the best record for standing up to management. they will most likely allow ASA to present them a program (probably the one SKW uses) and lat ASA sell it to them. And AFA leadership will take it because NONE of them will have to deal with the down side. None of them even fly.

I fear that Jmoney may be correct. ASA is going to use the FAs to back door us on a very crappy PBS system. And if ALPA was on the ball, they'd be lobbying the AFA right now to include them in the discussion, or notifying ASA that they will be re-doing PBS if we don't like what they've invested in.

 

[CFI2766]

So you're saying we should chuck the seniority system and spread things out more evenly? This coming from a pilot at the company less than 2 years? Am I getting this right? Are you kidding me?

No, I specifically did NOT say that. I did say that I don't know of a better way. Re-read, please.

Getting the best of what's avaialble is one thing, which I do support, but re-engineering the game to take from those who have the least (QOL, Pay, Prospects) to give to those who have the most, well, that's the most republican thought I've ever heard you support...

 

[CFI2766]

This is the point. PBS will be using whatever pairings ASA's incompetent crew planners make, which is whatever pairings the IBM 286 they have spits out, unfiltered. The only difference we will see with PBS is a complete loss of the ability to "defensive bid", in other words, you bid your top choices, then bid what you can live with. With PBS (as implemented at most airlines) you either get your dream line, or get whatever they give you. Then, as Sweptback said, you're stuck with it unless you can mutual swap.

Now, I think we know that AFA at ASA doesn't have the best record for standing up to management. they will most likely allow ASA to present them a program (probably the one SKW uses) and lat ASA sell it to them. And AFA leadership will take it because NONE of them will have to deal with the down side. None of them even fly.

I fear that Jmoney may be correct. ASA is going to use the FAs to back door us on a very crappy PBS system. And if ALPA was on the ball, they'd be lobbying the AFA right now to include them in the discussion, or notifying ASA that they will be re-doing PBS if we don't like what they've invested in.

Getting back to PBS: Of course ASA will want to provide us with the PBS system that that benefits the company. Why else would the collective airline management support this idea?

The pairings and flying that exist prior to PBS are a big part of the overall QOL equation that pilots try to balance when bidding month to month. JMoney is right: PBS will protect the interests of the company, not the interests of the pilots, whether senior or junior.

Also, I'm HIGHLY opposed to the AFA leading the pilot group into PBS. I reallly hope that the MEC is quietly, but actively, engaging the AFA on this matter.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Question is, do the mid level and junior FAs really know what they're getting themselves into? And how will their precedent affect us when we finally agree to it?

Actually, a lot of my FA friends are against it. In fact, the AFA leadership isn't very popular right now. They have a meeting this week and it should be very interesting!

 

[Jmoney]

Damn......

No, I specifically did NOT say that. I did say that I don't know of a better way. Re-read, please.

Getting the best of what's avaialble is one thing, which I do support, but re-engineering the game to take from those who have the least (QOL, Pay, Prospects) to give to those who have the most, well, that's the most republican thought I've ever heard you support...

-If you can actually hold a job, pay taxes on your income and then bitch about giving too little to "those who have the least," then, sir, there is no possibility of us helping you here.

-You obviously have much bigger problems than PBS, so why not get out the old checkbook and write out a big fatty for some crackhead to erase your sense of guilt? Gold star for your generousity-but just don't get too crazy with my earnings.

-Leave the nuts and bolts of career stuff to those of us who still have some damn sense!

 

[Gr82Aviate]

AhAAA,
The CP{JM} in question, is very specific about his bid, in fact he bids specific pairings, and thats what he did when he got hosed. I too reviewed all the pairings I was interested(4 day) and bid accordingly. I had KH, the manager in charge of PBS review my bid and got "I don't know why you got that". My bidding was very specific as far as the type of trip, but very loose in regards to days start/finish. In other words in his words "a very reasonable bid" There is NO transparency to this system unless you are management. If the company wants you to fly more, they just up the line average, less just drop it, you have no say and unless you have contract language to cover all the details(impossible), you will be a pawn to even a larger degree. Why do think the company wants it so bad? Why would SKYW a historically skinflint cheap company pay real money for anything that wouldn't return an immediate positive return on the investment? If you allow this onto the property in any form, most of the pilots on the seniority list will hate it with a passion. Why do you think there is a complete section of the SAPA forum dedicated to PBS, and most posts are titled WTF?
PBR

Your conversation with KH sounds almost identical to the one I had with him...and yet one of the PBS trainers here in our domicile who is the most junior line holder consistently gets better lines than most of those above him(hint: he apparently has the ability to look at everyone elses bids, with or without their permission)!

 

[spg2bmd]

My vag is wet,,, ooops.

 

[ifly4food]

Also, I'm HIGHLY opposed to the AFA leading the pilot group into PBS. I reallly hope that the MEC is quietly, but actively, engaging the AFA on this matter.

The sad part is that they probably aren't doing it are are not welcome to. My experience with the AFA is that they have an attitude of "we're big girls we don't need a bunch of pilots taking care of us". They'll probably go it alone just to prove they can. And we'll be stuck with their choice. PBS, take it or leave it in three years.

 

[CFI2766]

-If you can actually hold a job, pay taxes on your income and then bitch about giving too little to "those who have the least," then, sir, there is no possibility of us helping you here.

-You obviously have much bigger problems than PBS, so why not get out the old checkbook and write out a big fatty for some crackhead to erase your sense of guilt? Gold star for your generousity-but just don't get too crazy with my earnings.

-Leave the nuts and bolts of career stuff to those of us who still have some damn sense!

Nuts.

 

[Flybywire44]

Is there any pilot or flight attendant group that is happy with PBS? CAL hates it...

 

[neecy]

ASA and PBS

I do not know everything about PBS but here is what AFA is saying. We are looking at the NavTech provider that Alaska Airline F/As and Delta piolts use purely senority based.
We are looking at 40 preferences you can choose from including a "reasons report" why you were awarded or denied a pairing.

 

[Flybywire44]

What reason is there for it to be denied? Because someone senior got it instead of you? This will completely change QOL. They will no longer have the ability to bid VaCay on pairings to have the pairings dropped for a 20 hour month at guarantee.

This will some the company a lot of money though...

What do the DAL folks say about this system?