ASA FAs about to sell out on PBS

[CFI2766]

WOW-

Amazing insight! What benefit would being at a place longer have over not being there so long? Airlines are always seniority-based.. Always have been and always will be. Just wait til you hit a major-all about the senior guys.

Why should I have to wait until I hit a major to have a good job? Why not make ASA a place that offers the opportunity of good job for everyone who works there, as opposed to the oldest 10% who work there? I know, you are just reacting to normal human nature...


You will too once you have been here long enough to become a little bit "senior."

Nah, I'm probably never going to get to a point where I'm "senior" enough anywhere to compromise my principles.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Wow. One more credibility smack. Dude, you do it to yourself.

Wow....do you folks even read the quotes before you read the responses....

I didn't say there wasn't a difference between PBS and hard lines......I was responding to the following quote by a previous poster:


"The problem with PBS is that it is largely up to the company-they can make it sorta good or very bad.... "

The same is true of hard lines....they can be sorta good or very bad....That is what is no different than hard lines....not the actually system....

Now what was that about credibility.....DUDE.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I tried, but there's no way to quote the entire post, with both the original post and Joe's reply.

So, to recap, Joe was saying that the PBS system creating bad lines wasn't all that much different than the company creating bad lines. Frankly, he was right. I don't see where his 'credibility' was compromised.

Thank you CFI....you read the context of the quote.....Redan just jumped to a conclusion without reading the whole post and understanding the context of the comment.....

 

[sweptback]

So, to recap, Joe was saying that the PBS system creating bad lines wasn't all that much different than the company creating bad lines. Frankly, he was right. I don't see where his 'credibility' was compromised.

The difference is with lines you can go through and pick out what you want. There will be lines with 4 3-day trips (although sadly not as much as there were), just like there will be lines with all daylines, etc.

Also, for the most part, your start and end days are the same all month long. With PBS there is no guarantee of that, unless you put that as your criteria, and even then it still may not happen if your seniority does not allow. Right now the bottom 4-day line has min days off but they're predictable for the entire month!

Bad lines are mostly a function of the pairings being generated. How does PBS fix that? PBS doesn't generate pairings. All it does it order the pairings already created in order of your preferences. The holy grail is a system that dynamically generates both pairings and lines at the same time... but I don't believe that system exists yet. If it did, it would require something like a Cray supercomputer to work, and you know that ASA isn't spending the money on that.

Another overlooked item with PBS... no open time to swap/pick up from. Since all the lines are generated to maximize the use of all the pairings there is none (or very little) left over. Sure, you can write your contract in a way that a certain percentage of the trips are held back for an open time pot, but that decreases the amount of pairings that are used to generate your line, reducing quality. So that trip on your PBS generated line that you can't commute in for without giving up a day off? Too bad, you're stuck with it, unless you can make something happen on the tradeboard.

 

[sweptback]

Possibly, but that's still no excuse for the pilots to not have a printed copy of the contract. There's been plenty of time to get this done. If the right people aren't being tasked with accomplishing this, perhaps they should be.

Really, this is like saying "That approach plate into KAVL is 99% the same as the old one, what's the problem?" Poor logic on this excuse.

Would you rather have a document that is fully checked and verified, making sure that all the loose ends and ambiguous language is tied up? Or would you rather have a reprint of the road show TA?

Given that we already have a document that is mostly correct in our hands, I'd rather wait the few months for a perfect one that won't screw us in the future because it wasn't triple-checked.

Look, I'm with you on this one, and after discussing it with DN he clued me in to why it was taking so long. You can call him too if you want.

Anyway, I'm out. This overnight is too short and I must find lunch. Just like Jello, there's always room for Flightinfo

 

[Jmoney]

Exactly

We are really playing with fire on this one..... I don't think most people have any concept of how bad this system can be.... If too much is left to the company, we will end up eating one, and for what? I still see no reason that PBS is so "efficient." Perhaps by "efficient" they just mean there is no means of questioning the system's assignment and thereby no messy grievance process.

Agree: playing with fire is bad. Also, I strongly suspect that this is a one shot deal. If we agree to, or are forced into, a PBS system that we don't like, there will be no 'do-over'. If changes are required from the pilot's perspective, it will cost dearly later on.


I honestly have no idea how you can tell if you have been wronged with a system like this-everyone probably just ends up getting equally screwed. Not so bad when you are on reserve, but not so great when you have been around long enough to have a reasonable expectation of some QOL!

NOT SO BAD ON RESERVE?!?!

Just to make sure I understand correctly, you are okay with a system where a reserve (read, low [bad] seniority) gets less QOL, but a more senior guy deserves a 'reasonable expectation of some QOL' at the expense of the new guy?



EXACTLY!

The underlined part is EXACTLY what I am saying!!! Prescisely correct! That is what is fair. More senior people get paid more, get better scheules, get prettier dates, drive better cars, have better hair regrowth treatments, etc.

Seriously-Our system is based on things getting better the longer you are here. And it should be that way. If the company had it's way, we would all be on reserve all the time-2 months or 25 years... Everyone treated the same-everyone equally screwed. No arguing that would be very efficient, but they would have a little trouble getting people to work here.

My reserve comment was not interpreted correctly. What I intended to infer was that PBS may be very attractive to those stuck on crappy reserve because they would finally get a schedule. PBS would be very unattractive to the rest of us because we could get bent over.

SH came into our recurrent one time and started discussing crappy four day trips we had. When we cornered him, he responded "well, you wouldn't want some guys to have really great schedules and others to have bad four days-it is more fair to spread the bad stuff around." The guy sitting with me said-"Yes-that is exactly what we expect!-what the hell else is seniority good for?" You should have heard our class go nuts on SH! A small insight on what we are dealing with here-SH just ain't all that sharp.

You are in the minority CFI, and very few people will share your short-sighted view. People who have been here longer should have it better. I am not the most senior person in the world, but I'm not on reserve anymore. I did my time in purgatory, and don't want to start over again just because the company thinks it would be more "efficient."

The hell we had when we were on reserve beats anything you could possibly have done here..... Ever done reserve from 5 or 6 in the a.m. to 11 p.m.? Well, I have-and you will get very little sympathy here.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

I haven't heard much from Comair folks on here, but why do the SkyWest folks get on here and say it sucks?

SkyWest uses a custom-made, most likely lowest bidder "solution" from an overseas company that probably doesn't know much about the needs of an airline. SkyWest wants to push this system on us because it's already developed and paid for.

DINGDINGDING,
We have a winner! SKYW bought a system that was rejected by every other carrier that was "exploring" the PBS process. SKYW wants it because it removes ALL transparency from the bidding process, you will in essence become a reserve. I had talked to the #1 Capt. in DEN right after he was awarded a whole bunch of crap that he hadn't bid. Seems he always bids specific 4 day commutable trips and was awarded 2,3 and 4 day mostly un-commutable trips. The trips he originally bid, were awarded to someone else. The other thing that is a huge issue is vacation, I went to having a vacation bank of 140hrs and a user time(sick) balance of more than 80hrs.I now have barely enough to take 2 weeks vacation and not enough sick time to take a 4 day trip off sick. Accrual of vacation and sick time rates are critical, do not make the mistake of overlooking these issues. A good rule of thumb is if SKYW wants it, the burning sensation in your azz will be intense, and prolonged if you give it to them. The SGU crowd has legions of minions who do nothing but spend their days thinking up ways to steal money back from you. Been watchin' them do it for 10+ years, you will see it too, old dogs don't change their habits. BH likes to think he is a line pilot, but he hasn't flown the line for 15 years, and likes the money that being mgmt brings. Don't be fooled!
PBR

 

[PCL_128]

PBR, which system do you guys have?

 

[Texx]

Some important things to thnk about...

1. It doesn't matter what any mainline uses. We do not have the same type schedule structure. Apple and oranges.

2. To make a blanket statement that "the majority of pilots at xxx airlines love it" is worthless. There is rarely a majority at any airline that likes anything.

3. The more parameters you use in your selection process means the more limitations you put on yourself. Example..I want late 3 days with weekends off.

4. I will agree with Mr. JM that it was poor negotiating tactics not to work a deal during Section 6 for this. We were in the drivers seat at that time.

5. The ongoing cost savings to the Company will be in the 10s of millions of dollars for this. You are going to give up a great deal, if not all, of the flexibilty when it comes to your schedule. You better get a good piece of the savings in return.

6. As for Navtec, speaking with our planners they were not moved by the product for OUR use. Lack of support and flexibilty with the vendor to find solutions to OUR problems. Same problem we had with Sabre.

Keep an open mind when talking to pilots about the products.

It the FAs were smart they would work with the pilot group and try to find common ground to structure a system that will maximize gains for the workforce.

 

[PCL_128]

As for Navtec, speaking with our planners they were not moved by the product for OUR use.

You would do well not to listen to crew planners.

 

[Texx]

You would do well not to listen to crew planners.

And you know our crew planners? I didn't think so.

 

[PCL_128]

And you know our crew planners? I didn't think so.

Your crew planners are concerned with covering the flying, not ensuring your QOL. But trust whoever you want. Doesn't matter to me. We don't have PBS, and hopefully never will.

 

[www.]

Your crew planners are concerned with covering the flying, not ensuring your QOL. But trust whoever you want. Doesn't matter to me. We don't have PBS, and hopefully never will.[/quote]


Me too.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Some important things to thnk about...

1. It doesn't matter what any mainline uses. We do not have the same type schedule structure. Apple and oranges.

2. To make a blanket statement that "the majority of pilots at xxx airlines love it" is worthless. There is rarely a majority at any airline that likes anything.

3. The more parameters you use in your selection process means the more limitations you put on yourself. Example..I want late 3 days with weekends off.

4. I will agree with Mr. JM that it was poor negotiating tactics not to work a deal during Section 6 for this. We were in the drivers seat at that time.

5. The ongoing cost savings to the Company will be in the 10s of millions of dollars for this. You are going to give up a great deal, if not all, of the flexibilty when it comes to your schedule. You better get a good piece of the savings in return.

6. As for Navtec, speaking with our planners they were not moved by the product for OUR use. Lack of support and flexibilty with the vendor to find solutions to OUR problems. Same problem we had with Sabre.

Keep an open mind when talking to pilots about the products.

It the FAs were smart they would work with the pilot group and try to find common ground to structure a system that will maximize gains for the workforce.

All very good points, particularly number 1. Everyone wants to compare ourselves to Delta, but they have completely different factors involved with their schedules. (The same goes for the LCPs. Delta may have line-bidding LCPs, but they have vastly different training requirements...but that's a whole other discussion.)

 

[701EV]

First off NO to PBS unless its the type that TWA used. According to our pilots who came trom TWA you could turn vacation into two or three weeks depending upon how you bid.

Long Call Reserve has not been that bad. We can be converted to short call 7 times. Delta can be converted 6 times. So, for our first LCR contract thats not to bad. Also February was one hell of a month for weather and that screws reserve pilots. One thing I don't like about being converted is they pick our reserve slot.

Just my 2 cents

701EV

 

[CFI2766]

NOT SO BAD ON RESERVE?!?!

Just to make sure I understand correctly, you are okay with a system where a reserve (read, low [bad] seniority) gets less QOL, but a more senior guy deserves a 'reasonable expectation of some QOL' at the expense of the new guy?



EXACTLY!

The underlined part is EXACTLY what I am saying!!! Prescisely correct! That is what is fair. More senior people get paid more, get better scheules, get prettier dates, drive better cars, have better hair regrowth treatments, etc.

Seriously-Our system is based on things getting better the longer you are here. And it should be that way. If the company had it's way, we would all be on reserve all the time-2 months or 25 years... Everyone treated the same-everyone equally screwed. No arguing that would be very efficient, but they would have a little trouble getting people to work here.

My reserve comment was not interpreted correctly. What I intended to infer was that PBS may be very attractive to those stuck on crappy reserve because they would finally get a schedule. PBS would be very unattractive to the rest of us because we could get bent over.

SH came into our recurrent one time and started discussing crappy four day trips we had. When we cornered him, he responded "well, you wouldn't want some guys to have really great schedules and others to have bad four days-it is more fair to spread the bad stuff around." The guy sitting with me said-"Yes-that is exactly what we expect!-what the hell else is seniority good for?" You should have heard our class go nuts on SH! A small insight on what we are dealing with here-SH just ain't all that sharp.

You are in the minority CFI, and very few people will share your short-sighted view. People who have been here longer should have it better. I am not the most senior person in the world, but I'm not on reserve anymore. I did my time in purgatory, and don't want to start over again just because the company thinks it would be more "efficient."

The hell we had when we were on reserve beats anything you could possibly have done here..... Ever done reserve from 5 or 6 in the a.m. to 11 p.m.? Well, I have-and you will get very little sympathy here.

Doesn't exactly sound like "liberty and justice for all", does it?

If the company had its way? Where did you get that I thought that the comapany should get its way? Clearly, I don't think that reserve for all is a good idea. I do think that a higher QOL for a higher number of people is a good idea. Google up on Jeremy Bentham and get back to me, would ya?

Very few people would share my 'short sighted view'? Doubt that. Highly. There are far more people that are awarded unattractive schedules than people that are happy with their schedules. I'll go with you that I am in the minority in recognizing this as an unjust system. (I'm not saying that I know of a different system that would be better, but I'm not blindly following the past, either.)

So far as SH goes, he's a company man. He's not paid to make you, or I, happy. He's said some things, and supported/originated some policies, that drive me nuts, but I've not once EVER thought of him as 'aint' all that sharp.' And while you might not like his views on scheduling at ASA, I strongly suspect he's put more effort into maintaining at least some sort of a semblance of travel benefits with Delta than anyone else. As an administrator, I think that we could find someone much, much worse for that position.

Ahhh nuts, you probably believe in your heart that this is a fair and just system. Me? I dont' wake up in the morning and revel in discovering new ways to make my life better by taking from others. And, frankly, I'm pretty sure that's not going to change with my seniority. How 'bout you?

 

[CFI2766]

I think that, in time, we're all going to look back at this time, before PBS was integrated, and wonder why we didn't ask for....well....more. More money in return, more QOL protections, more transparency.

The pessimistic side of me is concerned that we'll get plenty in return for PBS, only to have it stripped away in the next round of bankruptcies. PBS will remain, but the trade offs that we achieve will be long gone.

 

[Jmoney]

Yep.....

I think that, in time, we're all going to look back at this time, before PBS was integrated, and wonder why we didn't ask for....well....more. More money in return, more QOL protections, more transparency.

The pessimistic side of me is concerned that we'll get plenty in return for PBS, only to have it stripped away in the next round of bankruptcies. PBS will remain, but the trade offs that we achieve will be long gone.

I agree with both paragraphs-totally.... I also think we are about to get hosed-big time. Just look at the history. When has ASA not used their advantage to the MAX to not try and screw us.

My whole point about QOL is simple-the way life works is people on top get better stuff than people on the bottom. It is that way with income, with academics, with sports, and yes, even with airline seniority. You can't possibly expect to have all the crap spread out equally-nothing in life works that way-or ever will.

If you work as a policeman, a doughnut baker, or a durn rocket scientist at most any place I can think of, schedules and pay generally go according to one's seniority. The same is (and should) be true for airlines. The better schedules you can hold will improve you life-no doubt. There is not reason why the top people should not be able to hold good 3 days-that is as it should be.

All your smokescreen about fairness and principles would evaporate if you were here for 18 yrs (which I haven't been) and could hold easy 3 days which PBS would probably decimate. You would be crowing at the moon over this one or you would have to be legally retarded!

-No, there isn't "Liberty and Justice for All" and there shouldn't be. If there were-then anyone who flew a jet would get paid the same,-we all fly in the same airspace at the same speeds accepting the same risks, don't we? That will never happen-despite what Joe Merchant wishes.

If you truly believe that seniority doesn't matter, there are plenty of crappy corporate places, tons of on-call freight ops, and probably a crapload of other "taxi-driver" fly-by night places where seniority really doesn't count-go and work at one of those.... Frankly, we don't need people so stupid working here and voting on anything!

 

[CFI2766]

I agree with both paragraphs-totally.... I also think we are about to get hosed-big time. Just look at the history. When has ASA not used their advantage to the MAX to not try and screw us.

My whole point about QOL is simple-the way life works is people on top get better stuff than people on the bottom. It is that way with income, with academics, with sports, and yes, even with airline seniority. You can't possibly expect to have all the crap spread out equally-nothing in life works that way-or ever will.

If you work as a policeman, a doughnut baker, or a durn rocket scientist at most any place I can think of, schedules and pay generally go according to one's seniority. The same is (and should) be true for airlines. The better schedules you can hold will improve you life-no doubt. There is not reason why the top people should not be able to hold good 3 days-that is as it should be.

All your smokescreen about fairness and principles would evaporate if you were here for 18 yrs (which I haven't been) and could hold easy 3 days which PBS would probably decimate. You would be crowing at the moon over this one or you would have to be legally retarded!

-No, there isn't "Liberty and Justice for All" and there shouldn't be. If there were-then anyone who flew a jet would get paid the same,-we all fly in the same airspace at the same speeds accepting the same risks, don't we? That will never happen-despite what Joe Merchant wishes.

If you truly believe that seniority doesn't matter, there are plenty of crappy corporate places, tons of on-call freight ops, and probably a crapload of other "taxi-driver" fly-by night places where seniority really doesn't count-go and work at one of those.... Frankly, we don't need people so stupid working here and voting on anything!

My principles were and will be the same at 18 days, 18 months, and at 18 years of service as an airline pilot. Sounds like yours' aren't. Well, that's okay. This IS the United States of America.

For reflection, when was the last time you heard of someone defecting to Cuba? How 'bout North Korea? China? Probably not recently.

I choose not to accept everything presented to me at face value. Just because something has been done a certain way historically doesn't mean that it's the right way. I find this aspect of my personal character quite reassuring when I find myself discussing something of importance with an intellectually-challenged person.

BTW, I've been a policeman; You?

 

[Spicepilots]

DINGDINGDING,
We have a winner! SKYW bought a system that was rejected by every other carrier that was "exploring" the PBS process. SKYW wants it because it removes ALL transparency from the bidding process, you will in essence become a reserve. I had talked to the #1 Capt. in DEN right after he was awarded a whole bunch of crap that he hadn't bid. Seems he always bids specific 4 day commutable trips and was awarded 2,3 and 4 day mostly un-commutable trips. The trips he originally bid, were awarded to someone else.


I'm gonna call BS on most of the whining about PBS. Most of the captains I fly with who consider themselves screwed by PBS, when questioned, have absolutely no idea how to bid. Moreover, when asked if they even bother to look at the pairings, tell me they "don't have the time for it". Well, if you aren't gonna bother to investigate the flying available or learn to use it correctly, you get what you deserve. If you listen to the guy who tells you not to bother bidding days off in any layer but #1 because he believes if you can't get those days off in layer 1 you won't get them in subsequent layers, you get what you deserve. If you just ask for trips that start after 1pm and end before 12pm, there might be a wide variety of trips that satisfy those qualities (and many of them might otherwise suck), or there might only be two, and they might suck, but you could have better choices if you open yourself up to an hour on either side. As for the number one CP in DEN, I've flown with him, on a terrible trip while I was sitting rsv post-ioe. He gets junk because he is so non-specific about trips because... He DOESN'T BOTHER TO LOOK AT PARINGS.
If you're upset because you can't get commutable weekends off or whatever it's either because you're not bidding right or you can't hold it because people senior to you also want it. PBS success depends upon your bidding and your seniority. Just like hard lines.