ASA FAs about to sell out on PBS

[crjskipper]

money - i can name about 2 dozen pilots at continental and delta who use it daily. the co boys hate it for the most part, crappy and old system.

the delta guys like it, it changes bid paterns but they like it. no cool-aid, just realize that its the same thing in a different rapper. top guys love it, middle guys live with it and junior folks despise it. pretty much the same thing we have now, you just think you have control.

asa builds the lines, we bid on their creation, pbs lets us create the lines, more or less.

 

[Jmoney]

Agreed...

I agree in principle with what you say, but I have serious problems with thoughts of PBS at ASA.

The main issue I see is that it is near impossible to prove you got screwed. How are you supposed to show that your preferences were "more" or "less" complied with than anyone else's preferences? It is all so subjective.

I do agree that there are "better" and "worse" versions of PBS, but what I very much fear is that we will get stuck with a "worse" version because no one understands it well. ASA will no doubt try and shove something down our throats which trashes our QOL and benefits "efficiency." Consider how much is at stake here.

What are the two most important parts of airline flying to most folks? QOL and senority-right? It sure ain't the pay anymore.....Now with PBS we are potentially throwing both those things in the crapper-and for what benefit? We already cover the schedules just fine-and we even gave them a "ready reserve" system.... Why do we need PBS?

What really scares me is PD-the head of scheduling for ASA ALPA came up with our current scheduling section......

Not that it sucks from one end to the other, but it has some pretty big holes...... Remember "long-call" reserve? Well, we got it, and all it takes is a call from scheduling to convert all the rest of your days to short call reserve-lot of good that did. Great job on that one, PD!

Now, I am assuming PD will be working on PBS for us, and if the language for "long-call" reserve was this easy for him to screw up, just imagine what will happen with something as complex and all-encompassing as PBS! You can bet ol PD will commence amorous relations with the pooch on this one in grand fashion!

The thought of a PBS section negotiated by ol booger is almost as scary to me as the thought of ever having to share a cockpit with him again!

-YIKES!

 

[Capi_Cafre']

....no different than with hard lines....

....next.....

Actually it is a quite a bit different. If your group is considering PBS you should definitely have someone on your side of the table completely up to speed on how the scheduling parameters can be set-it's definitely not a one-size-fits-all thing. Without clearly codified constraints and enough transparency to see to it that they are honored it can be a QOL killer for a significant percentage of folks.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

SKYW is the cheeapest out there, they jammed an untried, untested PBS into the pilots butz. It still does not work that well, 2+ years later. The top 10% pretty much get what they want, everyone else gets left overs. Don't do it for any reason, no matter what is promised. SKYWs version has no transparency and you seniority is/will be chit.
PBR

I'm in top 10%...it still sucks! Hard line in our base used to give us 90 to 95 hours credit and 15, 16, or even 17 days off and with PBS(and bad pairings) I'm down to 11 and 12 days off with 75 to 80 credit hours!

 

[atlcrashpad]

Public Broadcasting System. The company is trying to get us to listen to more NPR so we can be more edumacated.

Aint day got reruns uf Soul Train on PBS........
Scrabble Board..... YYUBOYY.........

 

[spudskier]

One of my buds told me that even though he is in the top 50% of his list on his aircraft at his base, he has never held a weekend off-even though he would prefer that.

Not saying I disagree with what anyone is saying, but I'M in the top 50% on ASA's 200 list and have never had a weekend off (well I tried for a week on future open time and the trade board and finally got one last month) and that's with hard lines... tell me how my life changes? As for my perspective, it can't get much worse (p.s. not for lack of trying, I bid VERY carefully)

 

[ASADriver]

I have friends at Skywest and Comair who use PBS. They seem to like.

 

[sweptback]

Not that it sucks from one end to the other, but it has some pretty big holes...... Remember "long-call" reserve? Well, we got it, and all it takes is a call from scheduling to convert all the rest of your days to short call reserve-lot of good that did. Great job on that one, PD!

It's pretty standard for most long call reserve systems to have a mechanism for the company to convert you to short call in case of low coverage. As many reserves as we've had lately, I can't see them doing that and getting away with it (remember that we have access into all their files and computer systems to call them on their BS).

The devil is in the details. A few long call systems allow you to be converted a certain number of "times" -- but a "time" could be the remainder of reserve days in your bucket! Our system protects for that.

Is our scheduling section the best thing ever? Probably not. Does it kick the crap out of what we used to have? For sure. That being said, I'm not willing to throw it all away for PBS just because the FAs took the company's bait on this one.

 

[sweptback]

I have friends at Skywest and Comair who use PBS. They seem to like.

I haven't heard much from Comair folks on here, but why do the SkyWest folks get on here and say it sucks?

SkyWest uses a custom-made, most likely lowest bidder "solution" from an overseas company that probably doesn't know much about the needs of an airline. SkyWest wants to push this system on us because it's already developed and paid for. There are much better solutions out there, and that is why I'm confident our union will explore all of them and come up with the one that works the best for us, if we even choose to accept it. Remember, we don't have to do anything more than to talk to the company about PBS. If we don't like what they have to say... see ya in Contract 2010!

 

[buscap]

In all fairness to the FAs, I believe they are holding out for what is believed to be the best system in the industry. I could be wrong, but I think it's the system Alaska FAs have.

The lines suck so much as is, I'm willing to look at any option.

The Delta guys I get on my jumpseat seem to be fairly happy with their PBS, but every other pilot group I've talked to can't stand it.

In my opinion, just like line bidding, it's all about the Software and Contract language. And who knows, we may be able to get the kitchen sink in the deal.

But for me personally we would have to get the best software, tighter contract language than we have now, and a kitchen sink letter signing incentive.

Maybe the FAs getting it on property will give us a chance to see how it goes.

Let them be the lab mice!! (I'm not saying they need to eat more cheese)

 

[CFI2766]

My thoughts on PBS.....

1. It isn't a matter of IF, but a matter of WHEN and WHAT IN RETURN....This is a window of opportunity to address the scope issue....

I agree, it's coming. However, I think I'd trade it for better work rules, higher rates, bring premium back, more busses to the parking lot, free beer in the Badda Bing, whatever. The benefits of the scope will happen on their own. More on this later.

2. PBS does solve the issue of integration....No more integration...

3. PBS does hurt those of us who enjoy turning one week of vacation into 3 weeks......

Spot on. However, doesn't the current contract have the same affect? I mean, if you get a vacation that requires you to drop trips, and you don't get paid for those dropped trips, isn't that the same net result? To net the same amount of credit for the month, you have to repopulate the month with other flying. (I think this was a HUGE concession in the current contract that we shouldn't have agreed to.)

4. Based on what it does to vacation, I am not a fan of PBS.....However in the current environment I am more than willing to leverage it for the even more pressing issue of job security.....

I see two sides of job security: Keeping management from taking flying away from ASA (or, simply not awarding any new flying to ASA [ultimatetly, being the cheapest]), or, probably more effectively, keeping new pilots from choosing to enter the airline industry.
I'm not endorsing PBS at all, but in an indirect way, PBS does provide some of the benefits of the Scope that most airline pilots want. This industry, and spedifically, ASA, eats their young. It's precedented historically, but many decisions are made for the benefit of the top 10% of the seniority list, versus the benefit of the whole seniority list. (Decrease in new-hire pay, loss of premium, 'signing bonus' payout calculations, et al....)

(Wierd formatting due to my inability to type quickly...)

 

[Jmoney]

Long-Call...

I'm not on reserve, but I have talked to a bunch of people who are..... Yet to come across anyone who has not had the long-call converted to short-call at the first of the week. Thanks-PD! From when I understand-long call reserve has turned into a fairy tale-simply does not exist in reality.

I have no idea what the union is doing to research this system. My guess is not much. Hell-we still don't have a written copy of our new contract-absolutely inexcusable in my opinion. Dont' get me wrong-ALPA is a good thing overall, but it is having some issues when it takes 6 months to print the damn thing!

I just don't think that we are in good hands as far as this stuff goes. PD is not smart enough to handle PBS stuff. (Anyone here who has flown with him knows just how "not smart" he is.) We need someone who is a real expert in place of someone who has convinced himself that he is a real expert.

We are really playing with fire on this one..... I don't think most people have any concept of how bad this system can be.... If too much is left to the company, we will end up eating one, and for what? I still see no reason that PBS is so "efficient." Perhaps by "efficient" they just mean there is no means of questioning the system's assignment and thereby no messy grievance process.

I honestly have no idea how you can tell if you have been wronged with a system like this-everyone probably just ends up getting equally screwed. Not so bad when you are on reserve, but not so great when you have been around long enough to have a reasonable expectation of some QOL!

 

[PCL_128]

The only decent PBS system is Navtech ClassBid. NWA's AirWare is a great system, but it's a proprietary system. Navtech is very similar and based on the same logic. Any other system will screw you over and destroy your QOL. Also, even with a great system, you still need control over the parameters in the PBS and pairing optimizing software. Without control over those, you're screwed.

 

[Jmoney]

Duh----

I see two sides of job security: Keeping management from taking flying away from ASA (or, simply not awarding any new flying to ASA [ultimatetly, being the cheapest]), or, probably more effectively, keeping new pilots from choosing to enter the airline industry.
I'm not endorsing PBS at all, but in an indirect way, PBS does provide some of the benefits of the Scope that most airline pilots want. This industry, and spedifically, ASA, eats their young. It's precedented historically, but many decisions are made for the benefit of the top 10% of the seniority list, versus the benefit of the whole seniority list. (Decrease in new-hire pay, loss of premium, 'signing bonus' payout calculations, et al....)

WOW-

Amazing insight! What benefit would being at a place longer have over not being there so long? Airlines are always seniority-based.. Always have been and always will be. Just wait til you hit a major-all about the senior guys.

Example-Continental signed a contract that sucked so bad it actually had a BLANK scheduling section-yes, correct-BLANK. This is their current contract. Why? To save the senior guys pensions. CAL mgmt said if they didn't sign this thing, they would just go bankrupt and dump the pensions. Now this contract didn't hose the senior guys too much, but it made junior guys take a big one for the team- crappy PBS, lowest pay, worst work-rules, etc... All for the senior guys.

That's life. I'm not trying to be a jackas$, but really-you do find this to be true wherever you go. Senior guys have invested more time in the airline and deserve better than guys who have been here 6 months. Same at every other airline.

Ask around-you will find exactly the same is true for rampers, gate agents, dispatchers and everyone else at any airline-union or not. It is real simple-seniority is a good thing-get some more and you will feel the same as I do.

When you make it to a major and spend 8 yrs on reserve with 5 involuntary base changes to build your seniority, it will be even more important than you think it is now.

Some versions of PBS destroy seniority-just screw everyone every month. I would like to aviod a bad system. You will too once you have been here long enough to become a little bit "senior."

 

[CFI2766]

We are really playing with fire on this one..... I don't think most people have any concept of how bad this system can be.... If too much is left to the company, we will end up eating one, and for what? I still see no reason that PBS is so "efficient." Perhaps by "efficient" they just mean there is no means of questioning the system's assignment and thereby no messy grievance process.

Agree: playing with fire is bad. Also, I strongly suspect that this is a one shot deal. If we agree to, or are forced into, a PBS system that we don't like, there will be no 'do-over'. If changes are required from the pilot's perspective, it will cost dearly later on.


I honestly have no idea how you can tell if you have been wronged with a system like this-everyone probably just ends up getting equally screwed. Not so bad when you are on reserve, but not so great when you have been around long enough to have a reasonable expectation of some QOL![/quote]

NOT SO BAD ON RESERVE?!?!

Just to make sure I understand correctly, you are okay with a system where a reserve (read, low [bad] seniority) gets less QOL, but a more senior guy deserves a 'reasonable expectation of some QOL' at the expense of the new guy?

For perspective, what if we were given the opportunity to merge lists with SKYW, or other ideal partner of your choice, but it had to pass via a simple majority vote. Here's the catch: the bottom half of ASA's list gets stapled to the bottom half of the acquiring carriers list, and the top half of ASA's list gets stapled to the bottom of the overall list. By a simple majority vote, this would pass in an instant.

'Might makes right' is never justice.

 

[Redan]

....no different than with hard lines....

....next.....

Wow. One more credibility smack. Dude, you do it to yourself.

 

[sweptback]

I have no idea what the union is doing to research this system. My guess is not much.

You are incorrect! Just because you aren't involved in it (or have a hatred for PD) doesn't mean that they're not up to speed on PBS.

Hell-we still don't have a written copy of our new contract-absolutely inexcusable in my opinion. Dont' get me wrong-ALPA is a good thing overall, but it is having some issues when it takes 6 months to print the damn thing!

You have a copy of the road show TA right? It's 99% the same thing...

 

[Redan]

I can definitely vouch for the previous comments regarding company transitioning from Long Call to Short Call reserve. I had Long Call last month but was transitioned so much I couldn't tell.

Another thing I can certainly verify after my extensive experience on reserve at ASA: Company will absolutely exploit every gap, every loophole, every grey area they can find, to the MAXIMUM. Right to the edge of, and sometimes beyond the envelope. I could NEVER justify allowing the company the additional latitude PBS would provide them. As far as anyone else who has been at ASA any length of time, I can't understand how they could possibly consider it.

 

[CFI2766]

Wow. One more credibility smack. Dude, you do it to yourself.

I tried, but there's no way to quote the entire post, with both the original post and Joe's reply.

So, to recap, Joe was saying that the PBS system creating bad lines wasn't all that much different than the company creating bad lines. Frankly, he was right. I don't see where his 'credibility' was compromised.

 

[CFI2766]

You have a copy of the road show TA right? It's 99% the same thing...[/quote]

Possibly, but that's still no excuse for the pilots to not have a printed copy of the contract. There's been plenty of time to get this done. If the right people aren't being tasked with accomplishing this, perhaps they should be.

Really, this is like saying "That approach plate into KAVL is 99% the same as the old one, what's the problem?" Poor logic on this excuse.