ASA Class Dates?

[indianboy7]

To all the ASA guys and gals out there,
I am one of your pilot to pilot reps and have been on several conference calls with the CNC chairman and the chairman of the MEC the last few weeks. It is fair to say that the union does indeed want a pay increase of some sort, at least COL raises, as well as per diem, Altanta bread or Burger King, isnt getting any cheaper. But on the flip side of that be assured that the big thing that your union is fighting for is section 13-scheduling. You are exactly right in all that you said concerning scheduling in your post. I urge you to do what others of us have done and email your MEC , CNC and Base status reps and tell them what your priorities are. Guys this is our union and you have to voice your opinion to your leaders as to how you feel. With that being said tell S. Hall and C. Tutt how you feel, they are in the crew room every Friday afternoon for Q and A with the pilots. (Granted i am sure they are playing the game too) But it is a good opportunity for you and me and everyone else to share with them our wants. I had what I felt like was a very good productive conversation with S. Hall yesterday concerning the contract and some operational issues. Belive me they HEAR your VOICE. I completley agree we don;t need to sink the boat trying to get a boat ride but I do think that we have to stand our ground when it comes to QOL and scheduling. EMAIL OR CALL and TALK to you union leaders as well as management. Communication is the key here. Email me and i will gladly take your thoughts and concerns back to the MEC or Management. Fly safe.

But...but....but......bitching on flightinfo is much more fun!! imp:

 

[Texx]

Ok, so is this based on some facts you have or are you just a positive thinker? Do you have some source? If not, I would caution against stating opinions or hopes as some sort of fact. I do know that S Hall told our recurrent class that ASA is actively pursueing another code-share, and also that we will need an additional base. It was also said in Delta Bankrupcy that ASA has 22 900's or 705's on possible order (don't say it Gen Lee!). However, I get the distinct feeling all or any of this will only happen if a favorable contract is reached, and quickly, which I think there is no hope of.

While I think many of us want a big, industry leading contract, this may not be the time to get one. We have to look at who we currently compete with, which are other DCI carriers. While many say our situation is different than Comair because they ae owned by a bankrupt Delta and we are not are missing the point. They have drastically reduced their costs, and now we cant compete with them, or Mesa, or CHQ, or Skywest (for anything larger than 50 seats) for any new flying, or maybe even to keep flying we currently do. I dont want an 8% pay cut(proposed for the 700), but I also don't want another 4 years in the right seat. I think pay rate is not what to go after now, and hopefully our CNC sees this too. That said, our work rules are horrendous, and need to change! Its hard for me to say I want x more dollars when my seat now pays less at every carrier except Horizon, and that is different because they have no real competition. While I can see the companies point on costs, or payrates so they can remain viable and competitive, I cannot live with our current work rules! We 100% need to control swapping/dropping and get a better scheduling/reserve system in place. I can control my income more, hence make more money, if I can liberally swap out trips for higher block ones without being at the mercy of some brain dead entry level persons whims deciding my fate. (And only Mon, Wed, and Fri between sunup and sunset when the moon is in its first quarter)What does that cost the company? (other than control) Well, they want our help to control costs, they need to give up some control. Fact is, the company wants to grow, and not lose all new opportunities to Comair/CHQ/or the SKW side, and since most growth will be 70 + seats (don't say it Gen Lee) we will lose out to all of them. If we dont get some of that growth, the ATR's will leave, and maybe some 50's will be parked leaving us as a shrinking company, and nobody wants that. I am not a management kool-aid guy, but I think they are seriously telling us that we may cost ourselves out of a future if we cant come to a good, compromising agreement. And anyway, so what if we break the bank and get it all! Look at Comair, it can all be gone down the road anyway. Knowing the attitudes of some of our MEC and negotiators, I fear this is what they are demanding. (Keep in mind, none us us really know what they are asking for, so I really don't know) Now is the time to bring up these QOL issues, and keep competitive pay rates so we can all prosper, and not price ourselves out of our jobs. And those thay say we are profitable (or Skywest is), so that doesnt apply, it does.....because Delta, or whomever else is only going to look for the lowest costs. I just don't think its smart to say we are profitable, and no longer owned by Delta, so we should get the big industry leading-Horizon pay-shoot for the moon contract. I say this only because I hear it all the time at work.

So your willing to sell yourself for airplanes? I don't think that worked at CMR did it. Take the time to educated yourself on the industry instead of freaking out. The Association's position is fair, reasonable and considers the pilot's futures along with the industry we fly in.

 

[79%N1]

Texx, That is NOT what I'm saying! Be reasonable. I am saying that now is not the time to hold managements feet to to fire because we want or feel we deserve the top industry leading, highest paying contract out there --- no matter what the reason. I am saying that we need to look at the economics of today and who we are competing against. It does matter that Comair took such big concessions, and that Skywest flies 777's for 50 seat rates. We have to try to get what te market will bear, that is the crux of all capitalistic business....and the market, our market, won't bear what I hear many screaming that they want in the crew room or on this forum. We cant be the Delta of regional carriers and not expect what they are getting down the road. Again, look at Comair, Mesaba, Cont. Express, etc... I want a 20% raise, $2/hr per diem, trip rigs and everything else. That would fill me with glee. But, how long will I get that before my job disappears all together. Yes, Skywest makes a profit, and they should - thats why they are in business, but if we break their bank, guess what? We will get nothing while SkW, CHQ, Mesa and Comair grow all around us. I dont want to buy airplanes, but I want to come to a fair agreement that improves my QOL, gives me control over my schedule and maybe lets me share in the profits of the company (not performance based), and lets the company prosper so I can continue to move upward through the company. I would not want to hold the line to "raise the bar" so I can fulfill my lifes goal of being a junior FO for the better part of another decade. Sorry if that doesnt fit into your goals and plans.

By the way, I've taen plenty of time educating myself on all aspects of the industry. Dont insult me with your slams, they are baseless.

 

[ohplease!]

Ok, so is this based on some facts you have or are you just a positive thinker? .

Just a positve thinker with a little (very little) inside edge. However, all you have to do is look around a little and keep an open mind. If you do, you'll see the signs. Skywest has plans to grow us. It WILL be with 70+ seater (because all new growth will be...not making anymore 50's) and it will invlove another code.

 

[Texx]

Texx, That is NOT what I'm saying! Be reasonable. I am saying that now is not the time to hold managements feet to to fire because we want or feel we deserve the top industry leading, highest paying contract out there --- no matter what the reason. I am saying that we need to look at the economics of today and who we are competing against. It does matter that Comair took such big concessions, and that Skywest flies 777's for 50 seat rates. We have to try to get what te market will bear, that is the crux of all capitalistic business....and the market, our market, won't bear what I hear many screaming that they want in the crew room or on this forum. We cant be the Delta of regional carriers and not expect what they are getting down the road. Again, look at Comair, Mesaba, Cont. Express, etc... I want a 20% raise, $2/hr per diem, trip rigs and everything else. That would fill me with glee. But, how long will I get that before my job disappears all together. Yes, Skywest makes a profit, and they should - thats why they are in business, but if we break their bank, guess what? We will get nothing while SkW, CHQ, Mesa and Comair grow all around us. I dont want to buy airplanes, but I want to come to a fair agreement that improves my QOL, gives me control over my schedule and maybe lets me share in the profits of the company (not performance based), and lets the company prosper so I can continue to move upward through the company. I would not want to hold the line to "raise the bar" so I can fulfill my lifes goal of being a junior FO for the better part of another decade. Sorry if that doesnt fit into your goals and plans.

By the way, I've taen plenty of time educating myself on all aspects of the industry. Dont insult me with your slams, they are baseless.

Just some things for you to chew on.

Our pilot costs are less than Skywest and will be close to CMR with their give backs.

Negotiating 101. You must hold their feet to the fire. You probably allow the company to violate our current contract. How many labor contracts have you been directly involved in?

When has our MEC that we are going to "raise the bar?"

20% increase, good luck.

You need to research the pilot costs at other airlines before you get into an emotional debate. If you have taken these talks as an insult, call Dr. Phil and "get real with yourself."

 

[Texx]

Just a positve thinker with a little (very little) inside edge. However, all you have to do is look around a little and keep an open mind. If you do, you'll see the signs. Skywest has plans to grow us. It WILL be with 70+ seater (because all new growth will be...not making anymore 50's) and it will invlove another code.

We actually agree on something.

 

[ohplease!]

We actually agree on something.

I hope the devil has a coat. Actually, I think you and I agree on more than you think. Cheers!

 

[JoeMerchant]

So your willing to sell yourself for airplanes? I don't think that worked at CMR did it. Take the time to educated yourself on the industry instead of freaking out. The Association's position is fair, reasonable and considers the pilot's futures along with the industry we fly in.

Texx,
I didn't hear "willing to sell yourself for airplanes" in 79%N1's post. I heard a rational well thought out assessment of our current situation. He sounds pretty well educated on the industry, as am I, and as are you. It isn't "freaking out", rather it is being realistic of the situation we find ourselves in.

Even ALPA realizes that the new environment of "portfolio" fee-for-departure contracts requires a new plan. Whether they can deliver or not is another question.

Whether or not you or I believe the "Association's position is fair, and reasonable", the industry "pattern" will determine what we end up with. That pattern has been regressing for the past 4 years. Since we began preparing for these negotiations, Air Wisc., ACA, PDT, ALG, CMR, United, American, Delta (twice), Northwest (twice), USAir (at least twice), ATA (twice) and others have taken concessions. In addition, MESA and Mesaba signed new agreements that are worse than our current agreement. Mesaba is also looking at concessions and will probably agree to them shortly. XJT signed the best agreement since 9/11, and is being punished for it by losing at least 69 aircraft starting next year as the "portfolio concept" is introduced to the CAL property.

These are the facts, not just "freaking out". I'm sorry, but the Association telling me "not to worry" doesn't cut it anymore - they don't have a very good track record when it comes to protecting jobs.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Just some things for you to chew on.

Our pilot costs are less than Skywest and will be close to CMR with their give backs.

Negotiating 101. You must hold their feet to the fire. You probably allow the company to violate our current contract. How many labor contracts have you been directly involved in?

You need to research the pilot costs at other airlines before you get into an emotional debate. If you have taken these talks as an insult, call Dr. Phil and "get real with yourself."

Texx,
What will our costs be compared to everyone if we get what we want? I suspect they will be more than CMR, SKYW, MESA, CHQ, PCL, MESABA, and TSA. In fact, I believe our current costs are higher than Mesa, PCL, and CHQ.

You also neglected to mention a very important part of Negotiating 101. You must have a monopoly on the work being done and you must negotiate with the actual party that is providing the work - neither of which currently apply in this fee-for-departure portfolio that we find ourself in. Without this, I'm afraid you are holding the wrong feet to the wrong fire and it us that will get burned in the long run.

 

[Texx]

Texx,
What will our costs be compared to everyone if we get what we want? I suspect they will be more than CMR, SKYW, MESA, CHQ, PCL, MESABA, and TSA. In fact, I believe our current costs are higher than Mesa, PCL, and CHQ.

You also neglected to mention a very important part of Negotiating 101. You must have a monopoly on the work being done and you must negotiate with the actual party that is providing the work - neither of which currently apply in this fee-for-departure portfolio that we find ourself in. Without this, I'm afraid you are holding the wrong feet to the wrong fire and it us that will get burned in the long run.

Ok JB, I'll bite. What would you do if you were negotiating?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Ok JB, I'll bite. What would you do if you were negotiating?

That is a 2 part answer Texx. I consider our contract negotiations to be just one battle in what has become a losing war. To answer your question, I would focus more on the war, and less on the battle. Our side, ALPA, must come up with a new "war plan".

1. Try to return to one group that flies for each brand with one bargaining agent on each property. Bidding in a competitive environment as independant contractors is not compatable with the concept of collective bargaining.

2. Work on seniority transportability. Other unions can transport their seniority, why can't we? This would increase the number of "NO" voters in these concessionary votes. Drawing a line in the sand is easier if you have a safety net.

3. Minimum ALPA contract standards. If the contract doesn't meet minimum standards, it doesn't get signed.

4. Stop creating even more alter-ego carriers thru "bad scope". Freedom, Republic, and Go-Jets were all created to get around "bad scope" language at the mainlines. This scope language, that arbitrarily limits aircraft based on seats, is harmful to both mainline and regional pilots, and actually creates more competition.

Until such time as we can actually reverse this trend on an industry basis, our current negotiations must focus on preserving what we currently have, and on not allowing more entrants to the portfolio.

Some of the best regional contracts once belonged to CMR, ALG, PDT, CCAIR, and ACA. In this environment, having a "trophy contract" only means you will have a target on your back. The XJT guys have that target on their back now, and management just fired their first shot.