ASA Class Dates?

[jeroom]

Keep on working as an instructor, then go to a 135 freight type job where you will gain some "real experience".
I did 135 freight, then ferried aircraft for a long time, also did some pipeline work. Trust me, flying single pilot in an aircraft that you have to hand fly with analog instruments will give you tons of experience. These kids getting hired right into an RJ at 600 hours is downright dangerous. I know that's also been covered in another thread, so I won't ramble on about that.

My first airline flying job was right into a 727. That's how I would do it. Where would I go? Go to a place like Custom Air (CAT-727's) You'll work your a$$ off, but you'll get paid alot better than the regionals and get to fly a real plane.

Well, your path is very interesting and honorable. But think about all off the pilots with 600 to 1200 hrs in front of a RJ job offer...put yourself into that position back in your time, and be honest... wouldn't you have taken this opportunity??
I am a CFI and fly a corporate 414 single-pilot, I did get during my little experience some "real experience" as you mentionned (I think real experience comes with any airplanes actually). But now I want to move up and flying a RJ for a few years seams to be a good idea. And by the way, why do you mean by real airplane? Steam gauges and screaming low-bypass engines?

Now for the ones in the pool with ASA, any news about class dates in January?

 

[StrykerFL]

From what I understand there are about 70 people in the pool from which classes will be put together to account for retirements and/or attrition. I have heard nothing however of a Jan class date yet. I interviewed on October 25 and like most of the other folks in the pool, got the call from Lisa last week. It will hopefully be soon!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Midnight Flyer - you are wrong about scabs. Scabs cross picket lines. A person is not a scab just because they fly an airplane you don't like.

ALPA created this scope mess by going along with mainline MEC's who wanted to outsource the flying they felt was beneath them. These contracts were ratified by mainline pilots. We lowly regional guys did not participate in the process and are still locked out today.

You are however giving these ASA wanna be's some good advice. They would have a much better career right now by going out and finding themselves a real flying job at a cargo outfit. Coming to ASA while the company is being vectored straight for a strike and probable shut down would not be a good move. Further, upgrade times here are going to be second only to Eagle. These guys need PIC time so they can bypass this seventh ring of hell and try to get the few "professional" flying jobs that are out there.

Schools capitalized on the RJ boom to sucker a lot of kids with daddy's money into direct path programs. Now they are all trained up, with no experience and no contacts. The truth is $10,000 worth of training with many contacts along the way is worth a lot more than $80,000 in training and a "direct path" to no where. Of course the best deal is to pay nothing for your training, have the us government pick up the tab and have a squadron buddy at the grip and grin. Unfortunately some of us are past 30 by the time we figure that out.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

Well, your path is very interesting and honorable. But think about all off the pilots with 600 to 1200 hrs in front of a RJ job offer...put yourself into that position back in your time, and be honest... wouldn't you have taken this opportunity??
I am a CFI and fly a corporate 414 single-pilot, I did get during my little experience some "real experience" as you mentionned (I think real experience comes with any airplanes actually). But now I want to move up and flying a RJ for a few years seams to be a good idea. And by the way, why do you mean by real airplane? Steam gauges and screaming low-bypass engines?

Now for the ones in the pool with ASA, any news about class dates in January?

Well you ask me to be honest and I will. I probably would have taken a regional job at that time and place, but things were different. But way back when, there was no internet with websites like this around. The commuters were not yet stealing the routes from the majors. The situation was different and this big "rj" boom hadn't started yet. Regionals were still called commuters and they "fed" the majors. You didn't have 600 hour inexperienced pilots stepping into an extremely advanced jet such as an rj.

I'm not upset at you personally, I'm just upset with the situation and the typical flight instructor with under 1000 hours taking these entry level rj jobs for peanuts, which is driving this industry into the ground. You've seen the type; young instructor who's the big fish in the little pond down at the local flight school. This is the same guy who can't understand why regional pilots are constantly whining about pay and QOL. So they join this message board and read all the horror stories and learn really how low the pay is and how bad the QOL is, and yet they still want to take the job. Then, once on the line and the newness is worn off, they start bitchin' with everyone else while they're flying their 1000nm rj route that used to be flown by a Delta or American mainline jet.

What I mean by a real airplane is one that does not do everything for you, such as letting you know when to descend, etc... Until just a few years ago, our aircraft didn't even have gps's. So it was old school navigation all the way, baby! I'm a 727 driver, and the first time I jumpseated in the cockpit of an rj, I couldn't believe it. Granted, situational awareness is awesome in those fancy things, but only because it has it "mapped out" in front of you on the crt. Duh!! Even my 9 year old can look on the crt and tell you where you are. The rj pilots, right after takeoff, would engage the autopilot very quickly, almost like they are frightened to handfly, even through 10,000 ft. When you question them about it, they quickly say..oh, it's procedure...we're told to engage the autopilot..blah, blah, blah.
I'd hate to be on a flight when the autopilot malfunctions and they're forced to hand fly. .
Some 727 guys hand fly it to altitude, many of them fly it to 18,000 and nearly 100% of the pilots I've flown with routinely hand fly it through 10,000.

Anyway, good luck to you, Jeroom. If you get the job, just get your time and get on someplace else. Freight is always a good place to be. Remember, boxes don't talk back!!
:beer:

 

[737 Pylt]

I know this has been covered at length on this site, and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one definition of a scab "a person who takes the job of another by doing it for less?"
So wouldn't the pilots who fly rj's on routes that were once mainline with "real" airline class airplanes be scabs?

The last time I rode on a barbie jet as a pax, I got a cramp in my a$$.
Tomorrow I have to ride in one again for over 1000mn and I'm not looking forward to that. 3 years ago, that same route was on a B737
RJ's are not airliners and pretty soon the public is going to have enough of riding across the country in overcramped business jets.

From Websters online dictionary:
Main Entry: 1scab
Pronunciation: 'skab
Function: noun
a contemptible person b (1) : a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2) : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3) : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4) : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

Midnight Flyer - you are wrong about scabs. Scabs cross picket lines. A person is not a scab just because they fly an airplane you don't like.

~~~^~~~, There are several different definitions of what a scab is, depending on who you ask. I never said a pilot is a scab just because he flies a certain aircraft and I don't happen to like that aircraft. You missed my point. Trust me, I know what a scab is; my airline has lots of them and unfortunately, I fly with them often.
Yes, scabs cross picket lines. But also, scabs replace other pilots' jobs.
Many major airlines have pilots furloughed. One of the reasons these furloughed mainline pilots are out of a job is because regional pilots are taking their jobs for lower pay. How is that not a scab? Just think about it.
Anyway, an rj has no busiess flying anything over about an hour.

just my .02 worth.

 

[ReportCanoa]

You all must remember the fact that most of us hired into the right seat of a turboprop were not planning to steal anyone's job. We were flying to Dothan, AL and Columbus, MS, learning and preparing to upgrade as those above us left for the majors. Then 2001. In my opinion, if you started pilot training in the last four years in hopes of flying an RJ, which many people have, then you deserve what you are getting. The others who got "stuck" at the regionals because of things out of our control are being labeled scabs. No way. ALPA never set minimum wages for RJ flying. They didn't want anything to do with them, even though the majority of mainilne pilots didn't think highly of the fact we were flying jets.

Bottom line? If you applied to a regional in 2002 or later, you may deserve the damn label. For the rest of us trying to get out, well, I won't apologize for continuing my employment in hopes of moving on to better things.

 

[Going2Baja]

Yes, scabs cross picket lines. But also, scabs replace other pilots' jobs.
Many major airlines have pilots furloughed. One of the reasons these furloughed mainline pilots are out of a job is because regional pilots are taking their jobs for lower pay. How is that not a scab? Just think about it.
Anyway, an rj has no busiess flying anything over about an hour.

Remeber who is feeding whom....you are right on Midnight Flyer.

Baja.

 

[WhendoIgetpaid]

I completely agree that experience outside of an ultra-automated jet is important to your skills as a pilot, especially during your first few years as a professional. We are all just trying to play the hand we were dealt, though. A starving 600hr instructor that can fly an RJ is going to do it. You are not going to talk those pilots out of taking RJ jobs right now. A guy whose dad will buy him into an RJ right out of training is going to do that too. Guys that are "lucky" enought to land 135 jobs will take them until they can go where they want too. Point being: don't pretend that everyone has the same options/opportunities to choose from.
Unfortunately I don't think we are really in control of these things. Regionals are going to continue gouging pilots, while they can. Inexperienced pilots are going to tip the scales on pay by taking jobs. I think our only hope is for the whole process to be cyclical. i.e.
at some point passengers get tired of flying on cramped planes => ticket sales move toward majors=> former system of "feeders" gradually rebuilt

being a pilot is no longer considered a career worth the time/effort=> less pilots trained each year=> pay increases as demand for pilots increases

accident rate at regionals increases b/c of pilot inexperience=> regional tickets decrease/increase sales at majors=> pay increase at majors to get pilots/pay increases to get pilots at exprience level req'd by new laws

 

[Kerveball]

Great points...well said!
Now that ASA has called most poolies....has anyone that works at ASA heard any news about class dates?....even if it might just be a rumor.

 

[jeroom]

One of my buddies who's in training at ASA now, told me that he heard about a class for january, maybe 3rd week or last week.
that is just what he heard at training.
Myself, I interviewed beginning sept 05', got the proposition letter, they told me that my background check was clear and done....haven't heard anything since!!

 

[Plug]

Midnight,

You make some good points and your way is the way of the past, right or wrong, it is the past. How many 727's do you see flying around? Other than freighters there are none. In fact, that mainline aircraft you so wish to fly on (737NG, 757/767, 777, etc) are more automated than the RJ. We at least physically move the thrust levers to set power (no auto throttles). We initiate the decent ourselves, VNAV is advisory only. So if you want to fly on an aircraft that has more human intervention then you should ride on the RJ and not a mainline bird.

I'm not trying to knock you here and like I said you make some good points in that a foundation of fundamentals are important before you become a computer programmer, but at the same time automation is where it is at, not steam gauges. I personally like to hand fly through transition altitude, some don't and it is because of laziness more than anything. Also, sometimes the autopilot gives a better ride than some pilots I know and the PAX always appreciate that, I know, boxes don't bi*ch!

But calling someone a scab for taking the career path many have taken is simply wrong. We may not be the all mighty aviator who smoke 2 packs a day of non-filters, drink coffee like a fish, and has ice in their vanes but we are professional aviators nonetheless. Be bitter about RJ's flying those long legs as I agree, but don't knock someone for pursueing their dream. Times have changed.

 

[Kerveball]

Jeroom....thanks for the info. I'm thinking anything in January is going to be out of the picture. I mean, if they were going to run a class in January (especially in the 3rd week) they would have to put the calls out like today. Most people, me for one, need to put 2 weeks notice in with employers. But nonetheless, keep me informed if you hear more. Thanks!

 

[WhendoIgetpaid]

A buddy of mine is in training at ASA right now too. He told me, a couple of weeks ago, that the entire training department had been rebuilt (or something to that effect) to gear up for a "big push" in early 2006. I don't see January happening, but why would they call us to see if we are still interested if it isn't coming soon? It would be waste of a phone call....right?

 

[Kerveball]

I hope you're right! I sure hope there is a "big push", but there wont be anything to push if ASA doesn't get their jet deliveries. I also had heard that they had hired on a bunch of instructors. Maybe thats part of the "beefing" up of the hiring department that you mentioned.

 

[Plug]

The fact that we are loosing an average of 3 pilots a week, I moved up 55 numbers in the last 6 months and with only 1800 pilots that is alot. We need to be hiring now to keep up with the bailing. But that is ASA for ya. We are fat now but in 2 months it'll be like this summer where everyone will get extended and junior manned and the newbies are waiting a month for IOE because the training department was so backed up. You think ASA would learn, oh well.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The "big push" is old news. It was cancelled and the Instructors asked to bid a line. There will be no airplane decisions until Delta's mediation (which includes scope issues) is decided. That decision is supposed to come down in March, unless something is agreed between ALPA and Delta earlier than that.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

No class dates set for the first 3 months of 2006. I heard it directly from one of the "twins" in the training department. Thing is, I'm not sure if it was IL or JP I was talking to.

 

[frqtflyer]

No classes in first quarter...earliest could be sometime in EARLY TO LATE march...apparently they are waiting for the pilots/mgmt to work out the contract. I also heard they are about 100 FO's fat right now. If you are in the pool be prepared for a long swim.

 

[jeroom]

Someone from training Dept. called me 2 days ago for an update on my flight time in the last 6 months, current address, if I was still in the loop for training. I think her name was Lisa...Asked her about classes, she had no clues to when will be the next one. March, april, may...she didn't know.

 

[79%N1]

No classes in first quarter...earliest could be sometime in EARLY TO LATE march...apparently they are waiting for the pilots/mgmt to work out the contract. I also heard they are about 100 FO's fat right now. If you are in the pool be prepared for a long swim.

And then be prepared to sit in the right seat for about 6 years. Fun!

 

[ohplease!]

And then be prepared to sit in the right seat for about 6 years. Fun!

You're gonna be surprised. Contract done by March, new code flying announced VERY soon after, several new planes VERY soon after that and all of a sudden, training can't get them through quick enough. With as many people as we have getting on at the jetblues/airtrans/whoevers with the greener grass, upgrade drops to around 2 years, 3 at the most. We'll even get a new base for all those kiddies that don't want to be in the ATL. brighter days are just around the corner.

 

[180ToTheMarker]

You're gonna be surprised. Contract done by March, new code flying announced VERY soon after, several new planes VERY soon after that and all of a sudden, training can't get them through quick enough. With as many people as we have getting on at the jetblues/airtrans/whoevers with the greener grass, upgrade drops to around 2 years, 3 at the most. We'll even get a new base for all those kiddies that don't want to be in the ATL. brighter days are just around the corner.

Nice to hear they are still serving the same kool-aid over there.

 

[Phony Marconi]

Sounds like ohplease! has a bad case of FUKT....

Fellow Undergoing Koolaid Therapy

.....!

 

[601Pilot]

You're gonna be surprised. Contract done by March, new code flying announced VERY soon after, several new planes VERY soon after that and all of a sudden, training can't get them through quick enough. With as many people as we have getting on at the jetblues/airtrans/whoevers with the greener grass, upgrade drops to around 2 years, 3 at the most. We'll even get a new base for all those kiddies that don't want to be in the ATL. brighter days are just around the corner.

I think I speak for all the other ASA pilots when I say this, "we need to have you drug tested on a daily basis!" Obviously, you are using on your days off.
Get a clue!

 

[PalmettoPilot]

You're gonna be surprised. Contract done by March, new code flying announced VERY soon after, several new planes VERY soon after that and all of a sudden, training can't get them through quick enough. With as many people as we have getting on at the jetblues/airtrans/whoevers with the greener grass, upgrade drops to around 2 years, 3 at the most. We'll even get a new base for all those kiddies that don't want to be in the ATL. brighter days are just around the corner.

Whatever you're smoking... pass the pipe, I want some!

 

[wmuflyguy]

ohplease is making the kool-aid over there.

 

[79%N1]

You're gonna be surprised. Contract done by March, new code flying announced VERY soon after, several new planes VERY soon after that and all of a sudden, training can't get them through quick enough. With as many people as we have getting on at the jetblues/airtrans/whoevers with the greener grass, upgrade drops to around 2 years, 3 at the most. We'll even get a new base for all those kiddies that don't want to be in the ATL. brighter days are just around the corner.

Ok, so is this based on some facts you have or are you just a positive thinker? Do you have some source? If not, I would caution against stating opinions or hopes as some sort of fact. I do know that S Hall told our recurrent class that ASA is actively pursueing another code-share, and also that we will need an additional base. It was also said in Delta Bankrupcy that ASA has 22 900's or 705's on possible order (don't say it Gen Lee!). However, I get the distinct feeling all or any of this will only happen if a favorable contract is reached, and quickly, which I think there is no hope of.

While I think many of us want a big, industry leading contract, this may not be the time to get one. We have to look at who we currently compete with, which are other DCI carriers. While many say our situation is different than Comair because they ae owned by a bankrupt Delta and we are not are missing the point. They have drastically reduced their costs, and now we cant compete with them, or Mesa, or CHQ, or Skywest (for anything larger than 50 seats) for any new flying, or maybe even to keep flying we currently do. I dont want an 8% pay cut(proposed for the 700), but I also don't want another 4 years in the right seat. I think pay rate is not what to go after now, and hopefully our CNC sees this too. That said, our work rules are horrendous, and need to change! Its hard for me to say I want x more dollars when my seat now pays less at every carrier except Horizon, and that is different because they have no real competition. While I can see the companies point on costs, or payrates so they can remain viable and competitive, I cannot live with our current work rules! We 100% need to control swapping/dropping and get a better scheduling/reserve system in place. I can control my income more, hence make more money, if I can liberally swap out trips for higher block ones without being at the mercy of some brain dead entry level persons whims deciding my fate. (And only Mon, Wed, and Fri between sunup and sunset when the moon is in its first quarter)What does that cost the company? (other than control) Well, they want our help to control costs, they need to give up some control. Fact is, the company wants to grow, and not lose all new opportunities to Comair/CHQ/or the SKW side, and since most growth will be 70 + seats (don't say it Gen Lee) we will lose out to all of them. If we dont get some of that growth, the ATR's will leave, and maybe some 50's will be parked leaving us as a shrinking company, and nobody wants that. I am not a management kool-aid guy, but I think they are seriously telling us that we may cost ourselves out of a future if we cant come to a good, compromising agreement. And anyway, so what if we break the bank and get it all! Look at Comair, it can all be gone down the road anyway. Knowing the attitudes of some of our MEC and negotiators, I fear this is what they are demanding. (Keep in mind, none us us really know what they are asking for, so I really don't know) Now is the time to bring up these QOL issues, and keep competitive pay rates so we can all prosper, and not price ourselves out of our jobs. And those thay say we are profitable (or Skywest is), so that doesnt apply, it does.....because Delta, or whomever else is only going to look for the lowest costs. I just don't think its smart to say we are profitable, and no longer owned by Delta, so we should get the big industry leading-Horizon pay-shoot for the moon contract. I say this only because I hear it all the time at work.

 

[e120pilot]

One of the most logical posts I've heard in a while

 

[ASABound]

Somewhat correct

To all the ASA guys and gals out there,
I am one of your pilot to pilot reps and have been on several conference calls with the CNC chairman and the chairman of the MEC the last few weeks. It is fair to say that the union does indeed want a pay increase of some sort, at least COL raises, as well as per diem, Altanta bread or Burger King, isnt getting any cheaper. But on the flip side of that be assured that the big thing that your union is fighting for is section 13-scheduling. You are exactly right in all that you said concerning scheduling in your post. I urge you to do what others of us have done and email your MEC , CNC and Base status reps and tell them what your priorities are. Guys this is our union and you have to voice your opinion to your leaders as to how you feel. With that being said tell S. Hall and C. Tutt how you feel, they are in the crew room every Friday afternoon for Q and A with the pilots. (Granted i am sure they are playing the game too) But it is a good opportunity for you and me and everyone else to share with them our wants. I had what I felt like was a very good productive conversation with S. Hall yesterday concerning the contract and some operational issues. Belive me they HEAR your VOICE. I completley agree we don;t need to sink the boat trying to get a boat ride but I do think that we have to stand our ground when it comes to QOL and scheduling. EMAIL OR CALL and TALK to you union leaders as well as management. Communication is the key here. Email me and i will gladly take your thoughts and concerns back to the MEC or Management. Fly safe.