ASA and Comair to merge

[surplus1]

Part 2 of 2

These are my thoughts on the flowthrough idea. I suspect that you won't like them and that no Delta pilot will like them.

1. If we make a flow-up agreement to the bottom of the Delta list, then the flow-back agreement will be to the bottom of the Comair/ASA list (not to the top).
2. In any flow-up/flow-back agreement, the number of people that flow-back can never exceed the number of people that flowed up.
3. Once the agreement is in place, ALL hiring must be to the bottom of the CMR/ASA list. No insertion of "outside" hiring that negates the flow-up.

I doubt seriously that you would get any Delta pilot to find that acceptable. By the same token you will never get somebody like me to agree to a flowthrough that would put furloughed Delta pilots into the left seat of CMR/ASA airplanes, and do nothing more than make ASA/CMR pilots furlough fodder for Delta mainline.

You would never get me to agree to anything that would place any Delta pilot ahead of any CMR/ASA pilot in the event of a flow-back. You will not get the Delta pilots to agree to place any CMR/ASA pilot ahead of any Delta pilot. That's the way it should be. Therefore, the concept of flowthrough (of the type we know) is a waste of time. It does not benefit our junior pilots that want to move to Delta and it harms all of our pilots in the event of a flow-back (which is far more likely). Now if we can break the mold and agree to something realistic (like 1,2,3 above), I'd be willing to discuss it.

Do not ignore the fact that Delta is a 10,000 pilot airline. A reduction in force of 20% would put 2,000 Delta pilots on the street. If we had a flow up/flow back of the Eagle or COEX type, that could put 2,000 ASA/CMR pilots on the street. Where would that leave you?

5) The combination of Comair/ASA would eliminate:
DUAL management's, CEOs and MANAGEMENT with their inflated pay, scheduling, ETC.

Yes, it probably would. So what? Do you honestly believe that the savings Delta would realize are greater than the risks it would incur from such a combination? If you do, Delta management doesn't seem to agree with you. From their perspective, the pilots would gain far more than Delta would "save" from such a plan. That means that you will have to come up with the difference that they think makes it worth their while. What do you estimate as the level of concessions we would have to make? Do you really have any idea? Does anyone have any idea, including the folks that made this "proposal"? I suspect the answer is NO. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'd like to know how much Delta would "save" and how much we would have to "pay". After I know that I can decide if I'm willing to pay that price.

SO TO MAKE IT HAPPEN:
You have to have a VERY LONG CONTRACT BUT MUCH IMPROVED LIKE AMERICAN EAGLE'S. COMAIR/ASA wouldn't lose out though because all of the flying is done by COMAIR/ASA and if the pay is: the average of the top 3 regional's pay + 5-10%
The pilots CAN NOT LOSE!! Comair/ASA would lose their contract negotiations every 4-5 years, but would they need a negotiation every 4-5 years???? ESPECIALLY if all the flying was done by them and they're ensured to always have the BEST PAY??

I wonder if you know that during the past negotiations at CMR, before the Delta buyout, the negotiators offered Comair a 10-year contract in exchange for certain things, Scope among them, and protection from the consequences of just what happened -- sale of the Company to another airline. They didn't agree and they didn't want it. It was more important to them to maintain their "flexibility" and their ability to "sell us out", which is exactly what they ultimately did. The truth is that with just one sentence or paragraph they could have protected every Comair pilot and prevented the unfriendly takeover of the Company. They said NO. Do you think Delta, Inc. is any different?

You may think that we "can not lose" by signing a very long contract like Eagle's. You are entitled to that opinion, but mine is very different. I don't see Delta as being anywhere near as "afraid" of us as you seem to. They're not afraid of 10,000 pilots at Delta mainline, so why should they be afraid of 3,500 at CMR/ASA? They already have all the leverage they need to deal with us. You want them to give that up in exchange for the chance to pay us more, and the loss of their flexibility to hire additional and cheaper subcontractors. For this you offer to give them "management savings" (which they can get without you at any time), the right to pay you 5-10% more than everyone else and a long contract? He!!, the 5-year contract they have now is really and 8-year contract by the time negotiations end. Don't you think they know that? How can you possibly predict where the industry might be 15 years down the road? Do you think that they can?

Why do you want this merger anyway? I ask again, what is the benefit that CMR and ASA pilots will gain from merging the two airlines? What will CMR and ASA pilots lose if we do NOT merge with each other? What part of this benefits Delta, Inc., that they can't already accomplish without our consent?

Shoot make it a 30 year CONTRACT! Would Delta management accept it then! I guarantee they would! This would completely eliminate the FEAR that makes the Comair/ASA merger so scary to them and why it PROBABLY WON'T HAPPEN.

If you are willing to make a 30-year contract, you might as well give yourself a 2% raise by getting rid of the union. If a union is going to sign a contract of that duration then we sure don't need the union.

You have a lot of good ideas but I don't think you've thought them through fully and I still don't understand your real motives. Help me out and tell me WHY this proposed merger is so important to you. Forgive me if I'm dense, but I do not understand what benefits we will derive from just a merger. Neither do I understand what we can't derive without a merger. Therefore, I see the merger as a nice idea but little else.

I do see the benefit of eliminating the subcontractors but I do not see how we could justify that to Delta, Inc., without bidding less than Mesa and gutting our contract accordingly. The "growth" might provide upgrades for 1//2 the list and a bunch of new hires. What would it provide for the other 1/2 of the list that has already upgraded? Believe me I don't want to be negative about this, but I just don't think it is very pragmatic.

I see a benefit to having one list with ASA and with Delta, but those "benefits" are all in favor of the pilots. I see nothing of special benefit to the Company. Companies don't make win/lose agreements unless they are the winners. Right now the Company does need concessions, but they need them from the Delta pilots, not from CMR or ASA. You can't really expect the Delta pilots to increase their concessions for the benefit of CMR and ASA. The Delta MEC Chairman can support this because it costs him or his pilots absolutely nothing and he might even gain something from the gesture. Otherwise you can bet your bottom dollar he wouldn't give you the time of day. Do not overlook the fact that the current DMEC Chair is the former Chairman of the DNC. You're not dealing with a babe in the woods. This is the same guy that negotiated away your rights to more 70-seaters and limited your flying in 50-seaters. You think he suddenly loves us? Nonsense! He has seen an opportunity to further the interests of the Delta pilots, at no cost or risk, and he took it. I would do the same if I were in his shoes.

If CMR and ASA pilots really want this merger, we had better be prepared to pay a very high price. In my opinion we can't pay enough to make the Company want it, unless we are willing to sell our very souls in the process. I'm not willing to do that and I hope you will give it some more thought before you decide to jump of the cliff for a very dubious benefit.

I hope that you and others don't get so caught up in the "wanting" that you give up just about everything in exchange for a question mark. Think it through please. ALL of it, not just the parts that you find attractive.

Respectfully,

 

[DDpaysoff]

____________________________________________________
""Why do you want this merger anyway? I ask again, what is the benefit that CMR and ASA pilots will gain from merging the two airlines? What will CMR and ASA pilots lose if we do NOT merge with each other? What part of this benefits Delta, Inc., that they can't already accomplish without our consent?""
____________________________________________________



I know this question was not addressed to me, but I would like to chip in. I want the whipsawing to stop between the two groups. As soon as somebody moves and takes a small cut, or gives the company an extra day off, or relieves the duty rig for cd's etc., a year will go by and another rfp goes up for bid. How do you think most of the Comair group will act the second time around after they have seen no movement and ASA goes out and hires 400 pilots w/ 350 upgrades? There is no limit on who can do flying under the DAL code, in order to protect future flying we would have to pay for it, I think most of my pilot group understands that. As a combined carrier CMR and ASA would have equal work rules and pay and we could negotiate or decline to negotiate as one for future growth and not have to worry about what carrot is being dangled to the other wholly owned. I for one as well as my classmate jetflyer have a lot of personal gain from a merger, we also have some personal loss from a merger. We have approx 400 people below us, putting us around top 78%, after a merger we would have approximatly 450 people below us and be about top 87%.
However, some things are bigger than any one individual and their personal gain/loss from a possible merger. The pilot group as a whole is the most important thing and protecting future flying and our contract. All I hear on our alpa board is I,me I, III,I. People, please keep in mind some things are bigger than just you. Let's hear the details and make an informed decision based on what our mec's and company presents to us. Again, this is not targeted at any one person and I have not seen any kind of example of that kind of behavior on this board, I think you know who I am talking about.
I am pleased that our MEC's are working together regardless of any potential outcome from this proposal.



Quote
____________________________________________________
""Delta MEC Chairman can support this because it costs him or his pilots absolutely nothing and he might even gain something from the gesture. Otherwise you can bet your bottom dollar he wouldn't give you the time of day. Do not overlook the fact that the current DMEC Chair is the former Chairman of the DNC. You're not dealing with a babe in the woods. This is the same guy that negotiated away your rights to more 70-seaters and limited your flying in 50-seaters. You think he suddenly loves us? Nonsense! He has seen an opportunity to further the interests of the Delta pilots, at no cost or risk, and he took it. I would do the same if I were in his shoes.""
____________________________________________________



The exact same situation but opposite actions of our MEC's stance on hiring DAL pilots. Nothing to lose, to just say yes, we would like to have some of their furloughs fly with us. Company makes the ultimate decision anyway, and what are we talking about a dozen pilots or so. That was flat out wrong, and I am embarrassed about how that was handled, and I don't think I represent the minority of our pilots viewpoints on that. IMO that this situation can be handled better.

 

[Cash]

yes

 

[shamrock]

How do you think most of the Comair group will act the second time around after they have seen no movement and ASA goes out and hires 400 pilots w/ 350 upgrades?


Hopefully the same way the ASA group has this past year. With the Brakillya's retirement and no new hiring in a year many of us have been stagnant or have moved down on aircraft seniority while (I believe) Comair has expanded.

Personally, I'm not crazy about seeing Comair all over ATL, because I want it to be ASA. That being said, I'd rather it be Comair than a contract carrier. I would like to think that this would be view of the Comair group if the tables were turned.

I don't mean to take this out of context, but the statement kind of jumped out at me.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

This Comair pilot 100% concurs, shamrock. And with our ASA brethren deep into the negotiations process, I will not be management's instrument of intimidation.

ASA has had only limited access to Terminal C in DVG over the years, I sure hope you have always been made to feel welcome.

 

[DDpaysoff]

I knew when I was typing that sentence, that somebody would come back on that. If it is any consolation after a merger it wouldn't matter where you were for 2003. My point was the whipsaw game would be played again and again every year. I think we have already demonstrated that these two groups will not sell each other out.

 

[WWEfan]

I agree that our 2 pilot groups will not sell each other out. I give a tremendous amount of credit to our 2 MEC's for their joint efforts to end the whipsaw. Thanks to both MEC's for all you do.

 

[surplus1]

I know this question was not addressed to me, but I would like to chip in.

Thanks for your post. Your points are well made, very welcome (by me) and I think I understand them. Here are some counterpoints for your consideration.

I want the whipsawing to stop between the two groups.

I would like to stop whipsawing as well. However, the real "whipsawing" is not between ASA and CMR. It is between ASA/CMR and the subcontractors. If there were no subcontractors there would be no "RFP". A merger between ASA and CMR will NOT stop the whipsawing. That is the flaw in the formula.

ASA and CMR have supported each other for a long time. We can and should continue to do so without "buying" a merger that will be of little benefit to either of our groups. The savings that Delta, Inc. could realize from such a merger can be attained at the stroke of a pen without our participation.

If Comair doesn't sellout ASA, and if ASA doesn't sellout Comair, whipsawing between us is minimal to nonexistant. Disparity between the ASA & CMR contracts is already minimal. ASA is negotiating now. Without absolute support from Comair, the ONLY thing that prevents ASA from achieving parity with the CMR PWA is not whipsaw between the two, it is whipsaw between "us" and the subcontractors. I say again, a merger will do nothing to prevent that.

I am not opposed per se to the idea of a merger between ASA & CMR. However, if such a merger does not phase out the subcontracting scenario, by obtaining the written guarantee of Delta, Inc., it will in reality be nothing more than a feel good gesture. The whipsaw will continue or intensify. I see no reason why ASA or Comair pilots should "buy" something that we already have for free, merely by sticking together.

If the Company (Delta) wants us to "buy" something, then it must offer something of value in exchange for our money. Merging with ASA and leaving everything else the same, is "NO SALE" in my book.

As soon as somebody moves and takes a small cut, or gives the company an extra day off, or relieves the duty rig for cd's etc., a year will go by and another rfp goes up for bid.

You seem to be making my point. That is exactly what will happen if either CMR or ASA make concession merely to merge with each other. The flying will go to the lowest bidder, i.e., CHQ, SKYW or some "new guy" on the block. Merger will not prevent that.

By coordinated bargaining in consort, ASA & CMR can avoid so-called RFP's between the two companies. The threat we need to fight is external. There are very effective ways for ASA/CMR to work together that do not require a merger of the groups. This can be done internally. Spending negotiating capital on a merger of the corporations, while leaving the external threat in place is, to put it bluntly, a waste of capital.

How do you think most of the Comair group will act the second time around after they have seen no movement and ASA goes out and hires 400 pilots w/ 350 upgrades?

That statement really bothers me. I hope you don't mean what it sounds like you said. Comair has expanded more than ASA in recent times and the ASA pilots have continued to support us. I would certainly expect that Comair pilots would continue to support ASA if it should go the other way.

In its history to date, the Comair pilot group has never undercut any other pilot group for gain. Your statement implies that we might in the future. I have to tell you that if that is the thinking of those that have joined us in the last 3 years, I would be extremely disappointed. It would make us very different from what we have been and leave nothing worth fighting for. JMO.

There is no limit on who can do flying under the DAL code, in order to protect future flying we would have to pay for it, I think most of my pilot group understands that.

Since I think you and I belong to the same pilot group I'm not so sure that I agree with what you say "most" of us understand. What I think "most of the pilot group" understands or should understand is that you should pay nothing for anything that you are not guaranteed you will get. If the only thing that we get for what we "pay" is a merger with ASA, we will have won the battle and lost the war.

As a combined carrier CMR and ASA would have equal work rules and pay and we could negotiate or decline to negotiate as one for future growth and not have to worry about what carrot is being dangled to the other wholly owned.

Sorry, but I can't agree with that. The Company (Delta) isn't dangling carrots between CMR and ASA. It is pitting its subsidiaries against its subcontractors. That's very different.

First of all CMR and ASA can achieve equal work rules and pay without a merger. We can negotiate or decline to negotiate, in unity, without a merger. The concept of "negotiating for growth" is a fallacy and should not be adopted. Growth will be determined by market forces and not by concessions in our compensation packages. In my opinion we should negotiate to protect the jobs that we already have, not the potential jobs that may or may not come in the future. We can only protect our current jobs by controlling who does the flying in the types of equipment that we operate now or in the future, i.e., the RJs. If we achieve that, "growth" will come when market forces warrant it. The idea that you can create growth by working for inferior compensation is a management ploy that should be avoided like the plague that it is by all pilot groups. It is extremely unfortunate that some "regional" pilot groups don't seem to recognize this. I certainly hope that CMR and ASA will not join them.

You don't see any of the mega airline groups "negotiating for growth" and especially not making concessions for promised growth. That is patently foolish. They negotiate for the security of what they have and the retention or improvement of their compensation packages. They make concessions to save what they have, i.e., jobs, not for growth. In that respect we would do well to emulate them and not follow the uninitiated regional groups that are willing to buy "pie in the sky".

I am pleased that our MEC's are working together regardless of any potential outcome from this proposal.

I am also pleased that the ASA and CMR MEC's continue to work together as they have for many years. I see no reason why that should change nor do I see any danger that it will. We do not have to buy our loyalty to and support for each other by giving any part of our compensation to the Company. The Company cannot put a wedge between ASA and CMR unless WE choose to let them. If we are dumb enough to do that, then we deserve whatever we get.

The exact same situation but opposite actions of our MEC's stance on hiring DAL pilots. Nothing to lose, to just say yes, we would like to have some of their furloughs fly with us. Company makes the ultimate decision anyway, and what are we talking about a dozen pilots or so. That was flat out wrong, and I am embarrassed about how that was handled, and I don't think I represent the minority of our pilots viewpoints on that. IMO that this situation can be handled better.

Well, I don't know whether you are in the majority or the minority. What I do know is that you and I do not agree on that issue. Since it is a separate issue I won't debate it here. Suffice to say I disagree with your position and fully support the decision of our MEC.

Thanks again for your comments.

 

[PositiveRate]

Surplus,

As usual, you make excellent and well-reasoned points. It would be wise for the rest of our Comair brothers and sisters to listen to your views.

The merger i'd like to see would be DAL/CMR/ASA and the elimination of the contract carriers. CMR/ASA DOH and then staple to DAL with appropriate fences and furlough protection as well as job opportunities for DAL furloughees. All delta flying would be done by this threesome. Anything else is just a waste of time and money.

I guess we'll know how this is going to play out when they announce the recipient(s) of the next round of aircraft in a few weeks.

Regardless, and I'm sure i speak for many, I will not vote to give up a dam*ed cent to do a job I'm already underpaid for...i don't care what the offer is. We're trained, educated and expected to act/perform as a professionals...but they try to railroad us into thinking we don't deserve to be paid as such. I don't think so!

 

[TanJMcAdams]

Take it from someone who has been there (AE). Any contract longer than 4 years is a waste of bargaining power. I already left eagle for this very reason. Don't do it.

James

 

[wms]

The merger i'd like to see would be DAL/CMR/ASA and the elimination of the contract carriers. CMR/ASA DOH and then staple to DAL with appropriate fences and furlough protection as well as job opportunities for DAL furloughees.

This is probably the next step if DALPA wants to get the 1060 back to work the quickest. Why else would they and ALPA throw their support behind it? See "protection for DAL/DCI brand" in DALPA's counter proposal. With DALPA making this a condition for their concessions, it helps the possibility of at least a seniority merger.

Hopefully all labor groups within ASA/CA see the benefit to limiting future DCI growth to ASA/CA. Our mgmt has said the best thing for our company would be growth, and this is the best way for all future growth to go to the WOs. The best way to grow is not at the expense of your own employees, but in a way that we can all contribute and feel the work has paid off. No employee feels their work is paying off when they fall behind and mgmt gets a bigger house in Peachtree City. The WO mgmt should be pleased that we're doing what we can to keep all growth within "their" companies.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

For what I am about to say, I would suggest Gen Lee first sit down.

This would be the perfect time for our three MEC's to put an end to the whip saw. We all could give some sort of concessions for a trade.

We, all three pilot groups, would insist that all of Delta's flying be brough in house. How ever much flying needed to bring back ALL furloughs would be determined and the transfer of routes back to Comair and ASA would start immediately.

With 45 crj's plus 32 dojets plus the 23 70 seaters due Comair and ASA next year, we could have them back in no time. I understand that the 45 are not due to start delivery until 05, but the 32 dojets could start coming early next year.

As Delta recalls, we can hire to replace them. As a combined airline, us and ASA could easily train 50 or more a month.

It is a win win situation, and I hope this is something the three MEC's are talking about.

 

[wms]

This would be the perfect time for our three MEC's to put an end to the whip saw. We all could give some sort of concessions for a trade.

Mention was made by someone up the thread that the whipsawing is between the WOs and the contract carriers, and this is true. But already the company has been pandering to the other employee groups about how our MEC's response to the contract extension will adversely affect growth. The whipsawing now will be within the companies between labor groups. Mgmt would rather damage their own company from within than address the true issue, that being WO growth. They should be more aggressive with DAL/DCI and FB and realize that our proposals would help them grow their companies. Secretly at least, they should hope that we succeed against the recent low-balling from DAL/DCI.

All employees would benefit from exclusive growth at the WOs, and all would stagnate just like us if growth stops. We should be quick to express this to them(rampers, agents, mech, schedulers, etc) as we interact with them on the job.

 

[General Lee]

Afellowaviator,

I agree with you. I have always thought that we would be a better team together. We should use our strengths more. I am also glad that our furloughs should get some attention that they deserve. I am not in favor of any DCI member getting furloughed in the process, just some help for those out on the street now--and that could be decided by the three MECs. Getting them back into the cockpit somehow is important, even at the bottom of the list. Take care.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Cash]

one of many good quotes

from wms
The best way to grow is not at the expense of your own employees, but in a way that we can all contribute and feel the work has paid off.

yes

 

[surplus1]

Surplus,
As usual, you make excellent and well-reasoned points. It would be wise for the rest of our Comair brothers and sisters to listen to your views.

Thanks for the kind words. Like most humans I confess to an appreciation of flattery (whenever it is directed at me) . Seriously, I do hope that my fellow pilots will consider the viewpoints I offer and use what they can in formulating their own decisions on the issues that affect us all.

The merger i'd like to see would be DAL/CMR/ASA and the elimination of the contract carriers. CMR/ASA DOH and then staple to DAL with appropriate fences and furlough protection as well as job opportunities for DAL furloughees. All delta flying would be done by this threesome. Anything else is just a waste of time and money.

I can agree to those concepts without diffculty. The only "fence" I would want would be a "no flush" proviso. In other words, the integration would not result in any displacements. I see that as going one step further than "fences" and of special benefit to the Delta pilots (in the current situation). It would stagnate our junior pilots for a lot longer than I think most realize, but they seem to want it anyway. Additionally, I would not seek a corporate merger and would even agree to separate contracts provided there is a single system seniority list.

IMO, this cannot be achieved without the consent and support of the Delta pilot group. While a few Delta pilots have indicated they could support it, the fact is that the Delta MEC has, to my knowledge, given no indication that they have any interest in doing this, neither serious nor specious. While I think they would benefit just as much as we would, their behavior indicates (to me) that they do not share that view. To date their leaders have regarded it as an unnecessary and undesirable objective in which they are unwilling to make any investment. Additionally, they have consistently persued a course that is often hazardous to the well being of the ASA and CMR pilot groups.

It will not happen unless they come to see it as being in their own interest. Even 1200 + furloughs did not motivate any change in their policy. You really can't force people to do what they do not want to do and at this point, I see no particular benefit in expending our energy attempting to convince them.

They seem to think that a simple staple to the bottom of their list, even without fences, would be such a bonanza for us that we should come on bended knee, hand extended, seeking alms. I don't happen to share that view. Therefore, I think we might better expend our efforts in the direction of protecting our own interests. I don't advocate closing the door, but I'm not losing any sleep over it either. I think perhaps we have bigger fish to fry.

Whenever the mountain is ready it will come to Mohammed. Meanwhile, we need to actively protect our own interests for it is certain no one else will and there are those who would undo us should the opportunity arise. I'm not paranoid but situational awarness is as necessary on the ground as it is in the air.

With respect to elimination of the subcontractors I think the price of doing that would be higher than we would want to pay. A prolonged phase out with an immediate limitation of future expansion of the present and a ban on addition of new carriers is probably the best that could be achieved. Even that will not be easy. Management smells blood and will exploit it fully in hopes of a feast.

I guess we'll know how this is going to play out when they announce the recipient(s) of the next round of aircraft in a few weeks.

Indeed we will. Whatever the outcome, I think we were right in not accepting promises from folks that have neither the will nor the power to keep them. From my perspective the voluntary participation in a bidding war for our flying is not something we should do. Give in to that just once and we'll be living with new "bids" for the rest of our careers.

 

[surplus1]

Mention was made by someone up the thread that the whipsawing is between the WOs and the contract carriers, and this is true. But already the company has been pandering to the other employee groups about how our MEC's response to the contract extension will adversely affect growth. The whipsawing now will be within the companies between labor groups.

Don't let the pandering worry you too much. This is standard practice on the part of management whenever negotions are pending or in progress. It can be dealt with effectively with a good PR response from our MEC.

It's unfortunate that management always seeks to pit the employees of diffrent departments against each other in the effort to achieve what they know is unjustified. Our coworkers are not stupid and if we keep them informed they will understand what management is trying to do and why.

If the pilots are convinced to make concessions, it will ripple through the company like the contageous flu. The filight attendants will follow and then the mechanics. Since the others are not unionized they'll just impose whatever they want on them. If we take a hit, they will all take a hit and they know it. All we have to do is keep them informed and make sure they understand why the concessions are not justified and they will be with us.

Mgmt would rather damage their own company from within than address the true issue, that being WO growth. They should be more aggressive with DAL/DCI and FB and realize that our proposals would help them grow their companies. Secretly at least, they should hope that we succeed against the recent low-balling from DAL/DCI.

It defies logic but that's how management thinks. They are motivated by power and money in the short term and their professed concern for the employees is phony. How else could you explain forcing an unnecessary strike, losing $700 million dollars, risking the destruction of a $ 2 billion dollar investment and then giving us what may have been accepted with no strike at all? It's absouletly ludicrous, but that's how they think. Many a company has been literally destroyed by this thought process, but it is still repeated, over and over again.

All employees would benefit from exclusive growth at the WOs, and all would stagnate just like us if growth stops. We should be quick to express this to them(rampers, agents, mech, schedulers, etc) as we interact with them on the job.

Yes, all employees would benefit and so would the shareholders. In most cases, that won't change what management does. They would rather damage the company and lose money than admit they've made a mistake. This explains why they will demand concessions of employees and simultaneously pay themselves huge bonuses, special pension benefits, etc., and refuse to acknowledge their own mistakes while the company hemorrages money. If it fails, they'll just move on to some other company and repeat the process there. This thought process is why most managers don't make good pilots and most pilots don't make good managers.

You are 100% correct about the need to communicate with our fellow employees outside of the pilot group. If we keep them informed about what we are doing and why, in most cases we will gain their support. They are victims of the same management thinking.

The road ahead will be bumpy but as long as we stick together we'll make it over the bumps. It sometimes takes a lot of patience but we can do it.

Solidarnosk.

 

[surplus1]

Why else would they and ALPA throw their support behind it?

If you think carefully about the broad scope of events both past and present and how they affect the future, you will come to understand that what you call DMEC and ALPA "support" for this may well be a "horse of a different color.".

When ALPA and the DMEC had opportunities to "support" something meaningful, something that would have precluded the current circumstance, something that would have protected the interests of all three pilot groups, both of them refused not only to "support" but chose a course of near rabid opposition, a policy that they both have consistently maintained and continue to practice.

Today they are "supporting" something that has become essentially unachievable, thanks to their overt opposition and previous decisions in the past, and that they know full well will go nowhere in a hurry (just as it already has). "A day late and a dollar short" comes to mind.

Comair and ASA management both echo the established mantra, i.e., they "don't have the authority to discuss such issues." Well, they are right and it should come as no surprise to anyone in the CMR or ASA pilot groups. The president of CMR is not far from being correct when he says that the ALPA proposal was "beyond the purview of either the Comair MEC or of Comair" (as posted in another thread by FDJ2).

Comair and ASA pilot groups both need to focus on the fact that ALPA's refusal to recognize their true employer and take action to establish that, as well as ALPA's decision to overtly deny our right to bargain with that "true employer", is the real culprit in this debacle. ASA and Comair are by no means the only victims of this flawed policy. The same error has been applied in every scenario where any corporate entity is the owner of one major airline and one or more regional airlines.

The situation that ASA and CMR are currently in could have been prevented if there had been "support" when it was relevant and before a policy of weakness and endorsement of alter egos was clearly transmitted to management by both ALPA and the DMEC.

We cannot change what has already happened. The past is history. However, don't confuse a continuation of the same flawed policies of yesterday as an indication of "support". The fact is there was no support for anything of consequence when it mattered and there is no support for anything of consequence now. Nothing has changed.

See "protection for DAL/DCI brand" in DALPA's counter proposal. With DALPA making this a condition for their concessions, it helps the possibility of at least a seniority merger.

Only the Delta MEC, their Negotiating Committee, and their confidential ALPA advisers actually know whatever "protection for DAL/DCI brand" really means. Even the usually well informed Delta pilots writing in these forums admit that they have not been told what that means. I doubt that the DMEC's actual position at the bargaining table will be revealed either to the ASA MEC or the CMR MEC before the deal is done. We will then have to live, once more, with the after effects.

I urge you to be cautious. Do not assume that phrase to be beneficial to ASA and CMR pilots until the true intent becomes known. Sometimes it is handy to presume utopia. Given the track record, I prefer to take a good whiff of the Coffee before I drink it. One drop of the wrong ingredient is often enough to ruin your whole day.

As stated by N2264J in yet another thread',

There's a lot of dust being churned up at Comair and ASA over this right now but interestingly enough, there's no associated movement with it.

Hey >>>, it's a diversion. A merger between CMR/ASA does nothing to address the DFR issues >>>> but it gets the pilots to take their eye off the ball.

I recommend you all give that another read. This gentleman (N2264J) borders on the clairvoyant. Let's keep our eye on the ball or the other team will win the game.

 

[General Lee]

I have to admit it also, I have no clue what the Delta MEC meant with the "protection within the DCI/Delta brand." I can only assume some flowback or flow through etc...and, I know that would have to be agreed upon by all three MEC's. As far as the RJDC and being thrown off that point, I don't think our MEC is that worried about it anyway. I think most of us at mainline would like one list, as long as it was a staple. We also would like for our furloughs to get back into cockpits, and if Comair gets the 30 or so Dojos from ACA, I think offering them some of the right seats would be a good start.

As far as current negotiations, time is short. There won't be constant negotations. There will be a time coming up here that will signal the stopage of negotiating---and then the MEC and the negotiators will get ready for full section 6 negotiations starting next November, and lasting 2 1/2 years. Let's hope they accept our offer or get ready for the next round.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[NYRANGERS]

Sell comair, staple ASA.

I find it curious, now that the RJ growth is slowing rapidly and comair may have to compete for flying with the lowest bidder......we now have this new found desire to work together and get the comair guys on the Delta list.

Trust me, for every guy who thinks onelist is a good idea (I am leaning that way myself).....there are 10 who won't forget comairs stance on our furloughed guys. Read the Roar, it has one of our MEC guys stating....."we won't forget what the comair MEC's stance is on helping our furloughed pilots".

This may be remedied by selling comair and then we can staple ASA with flowback protections for ASA pilots. I guarantee there are not very many pilots at Delta who desire to fly with any "new" comair pilots.

NYR....just calling it like I see it, I've been to many MEC meetings....and this is the sentiment regarding this issue.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I would like to see Comair and ASA merged, and then stapled to DAL. After that, take every single one of those 45 RJs (and all future aircraft) and place them on the property.

Then, fill up every pilot position created by those RJs with furloughed mainline pilots. And so people don't get all huffy about it, the furloughed guys would be placed on the bottom of the seniority list as far as bidding purposes, but are given credit for years of service at DAL for pay purposes so as nobody would have to start at a pathetic $19/hour regarding pay.

And as the recalls slowly occur, the furloughed pilots return to their mainline positions, and new folks are hired off the street to replace them.

As far as a future furlough policy would dictate, I have no clue on how to handle that.

PS Hope that makes sense, I have one eye on the computer and the other on the football games as I write this.

 

[surplus1]

I have to admit it also, I have no clue what the Delta MEC meant with the "protection within the DCI/Delta brand."

General ---- you're an honest man and that is always appreciated.

I can only assume some flowback or flow through etc...and, I know that would have to be agreed upon by all three MEC's.

That's an interesting observation. Whatever it means, it appears that your MEC has little intereset in the technicality of "agreement" on the part of the ASA and CMR MEC's.

One would assume, in normal circumstance, that something which requires agreement would necessitate that agreement be reached before the negotiations take place. Since in seems that the ASA and CMR MEC's also don't know what that phrase means, one can only presume that the DMEC intends to negotiate whatever it chooses. When the deal is done it will then be assumed, by ALPA and the DMEC, that the CMR and ASA MEC's will simply have to agree.

In other words the DMEC will negotiate on our behalf and determine unilaterally both what we want and what we should have, without our knowledge and without our consent.

That is precisely the policy and modus operandi that the ALPA and the DMEC have pursued in the past. It is the cause of the division between our pilot groups and the root of the existing animosity. A leopard never changes its spots.

The Delta MEC has no authority to negotiate on behalf of ASA or CMR pilots. ALPA usurps its authority and violates its duty to CMR and ASA pilots when it vests such authority in the DMEC against the wishes and without the prior consent of the ASA and CMR pilots.

I do not want this thread to become an RJDC debate, so let's not make it one. From my perspective these issues are germane with or without the RJDC.

I think most of us at mainline would like one list, as long as it was a staple.

If that was truly the case one would have to say that there are at least three problems in your group __ 1) the membership has not communicated its "likes" to the MEC, 2) your MEC ignores the wishes of its members, or 3) both.

While I agree that a single list would be equally beneficial to all 3 groups and could support a staple that includes adequate protections for all parties, I do not believe that your MEC has any more interest in that today than it did five years ago. It can't happen unless all 3 want it. Your group (as led by your MEC) does not want it and has made that very clear. Therefore, for me, it's a dead issue. Fourth down, no gain, the ball changes hands.

We also would like for our furloughs to get back into cockpits, and if Comair gets the 30 or so Dojos from ACA, I think offering them some of the right seats would be a good start.

General, I'd like your furloughs to get back in the cockpit too. If your MEC had approached this issue in the way that you do, I believe that it is highly probable that you would have gained our support. It is often true that what you do is seldom as important as how you do it. A bad approach more often than not, results in a bad landing.

Perhaps a go-around, followed by a stabilized 2nd approach, without the fanfare, the threats and the promises that you cannot keep, could produce a smooth landing. Why don't you try?

I have a question for you. If your pilots came to Comair while retaining there number at Delta, would they be members of the DAL bargaining unit or the CMR bargaining unit? Would their interests still be represented by the Delta MEC or would they be represented by the Comair MEC?

I'm not looking for a technical answer, I already know what that is. What I really want to know is when the vote (in the union) will they be voting for the interests of Delta pilots or for the interests of Comair pilots? Tell me how you would feel and think if you were one of them.

Since our "interests" are obviously less than common, I'd like to know what you think about that.

 

[surplus1]

Sell comair,

Hmmm.... interesting idea. For some strange reason it makes me think of "Parting is such sweet sorrow."

I find it curious, now that the RJ growth is slowing rapidly and comair may have to compete for flying with the lowest bidder......we now have this new found desire to work together and get the comair guys on the Delta list.

The "RJ growth" isn't slowing Rangers (that won't happen until it reaches your Scope cap), it's just being bartered for concessions, failing which it will continue at a "low bidder."

There is no "new found" desire to work together or to get on the delta list. We have been trying to "work together" since 1993. Long before you became a delta pilot and long before delta's "offer" to purchase Comair became inevitable reality. The obstacle has consistently been the delta MEC. Either you haven't been a delta pilot long enough to know that or you choose to deliberately misconstrue. It strikes me as both.

We have grown accustomed to being unwelcome suitors of your friendship.

Read the Roar, >>>>

I'm glad you made a reference to "The Roar". I have a suggestion for you too. Go back to 94, 95, 96 and to 99, 2000, 01 and do some more reading. If you do you'll get an idea of some of the things said and done by the delta MEC that Comair pilots "won't forget" either.

Maybe you wouldn't fall so easily into the syndrome of the kettle calling the pot black if you'd been at delta a little longer and read a few more issues of the Roar and the Widget. There is no shortage of "nice" things your "MEC guys" have said about Comair guys in those publications. While it suits your purpose, truth is the loss of your "love" for us predates your current furlough by many years. What you call the "stance" of the Comair MEC is not the true source of your animosity, it's just the latest "spin."

I would like "new" Comair guys to do the same thing. It's amazing what you can learn if you study a little history.

NYR....just calling it like I see it,

I get the impression that your "vision" is not only clouded but you have little desire to clear it. I'll give you full credit for an attitude consistent with that of many delta pilots.

 

[spinproof]

Well said Surplus 1 ...and they know what they can do with that staple!!!!

 

[wms]

I realize that if there is support for this from DMEC/ALPA that it is because they would want something in return. I also realize that we won't fully know the scope and conditions until it's in front of us on paper and ready to vote on. After the events of the last few years I have become skeptical of DALPA, MGMT and even our own MEC. Everyone has an agenda that does not favor who they represent or what is best for business.

I also know there are old-timers at ASA/CA that would rather maintain the status quo, retire from an RJ and not sit in the right seat of a mainline, who scoff at any attempt for reasonable integration. With a seniority merger the guys that would rather stay where they are can, I may be one of them, and those who want to bid up when they are eligible can. The last few years in the right seat of the mainline would provide a better retirement than an RJ, but if someone wants to retire on social security because they are too proud to suck it up, they can.

As a commuter I cross paths often with mainline guys, and even had a furloughee as a sim partner, and as far back as 2000 have seen a largely favorable response from mainline pilots for a staple. The ones who were against it were mostly junior FOs, who ironically make up a large part of the 1060 and favor a staple now. If DALPA wants to bring the 1060 back and staple us, I'm willing to face an extra year on reserve to do it, in exchange for a better future. There will be fences for those who like the status quo, and opportunity for everyone else.

 

[wms]

I can only assume some flowback or flow through etc...and, I know that would have to be agreed upon by all three MEC's.

This has not worked anywhere else and is not even an option. It would have to be a true seniority integration of some sort.

 

[Cash]

nyr-
can your guys not 'forgive and forget'? if they cannot, then this has no chance. the whipsaw would continue if just asa were stapled. i am asa, and i've flown with a couple of furloughs and they say the same (no way in he11 for cmr!) so i know your point is legitimate. can we not leave it in the past and move forward? even surplus addresses this.
this is one reason the arabs and isrealies can't make peace.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

The days of rapid growth with new RJs will eventually slow down because RJs cannot compete with LCC mainline aircraft charging $59 one way to Savanah(an example...). The economics will not be there. With Airtran and Jetblue getting many many new airplanes in the future, the only way to compete is to have mainline sized aircraft with more seats to spread out the costs.
I think you know this my friend. So, what will you guys do as the remainder of the RJ flying (the 45 new ones) goes to the lowest bidder? It will be interesting. I guess you will do some expanding with the 30 or so Dojos---so that will be good for some of your senior FOs. I still wish there could be something done about the 1060 furloughs we have on the street. But, with the lackluster show of support from your whole pilot group, and the animosity lingering within our pilot group (not everyone, though), I fear nothing will happen on that front. I hope something does, though.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

General,

You didn't answer my questions about your pilots on our list. Maybe you just missed them or perhaps you didn't think they were important. I honestly don't know how important they might be to the pilot group as a whole, but there ARE quite a few of us that would like to know those answers.

Surplus1,

The days of rapid growth with new RJs will eventually slow down because RJs cannot compete with LCC mainline aircraft charging $59 one way to Savanah(an example...). The economics will not be there.

The days of rapid growth always come to an end, regardless of aircraft type, General. None of your "types" are growing at high rates, haven't grown at high rates for many years, and will not grow at high rates in the foreseeable future.

It's really not because the RJ can't compete with the LCC. That is not its purpose and never has been. The growth will slow because Delta operates over 300 of the things and eventually there will be no need for more lift with those capacities. That is the same reason you only have 8 triple-sevens and you have no 747's. The Company just doesn't need any more.

The Company didn't purchase RJs to "compete with the LCC's". In some cases however, they can in fact compete. First of all, 100% of the seats don't sell for $59 (or whatever the advetised low fare might be0. That's just the loss lead number, the marketing come-on. You know that.

I'll give you an example. When SWA first invaded the Florida market, all the "experts" predicted it would be the end of the RJ in FL. SWA put their 737's and their cut rate fares on several "prime" CMR routes, like MCO-MSY, MCO-BNA (as examples). At the time, Delta didn't own Comair and we were not operating on a "fee for departure" basis, so we didn't have you to subsidize any losses. Guess what? We did not abandon the routes. We just offered a few seats at the low SWA fare (the one's that were empty anyway) and the net result was our load factors actually increased. The competition DID make it harder for SWA to "takeover" and we didn't lose any money. SWA did not run us off those routes.

We lost our FL domicile to CHQ, not to SWA. The RJs are still flying those routes. I don't know if Delta is making money with them or not. I just know that CMR did, and was able to compete with both SWA and ValueJet/AirTran. A lot of the routes that CMR flew (before its purchase by Delta) in and out of FL, were not Delta feed either. At one point CMR even refused to "feed" Delta Express because there was no money for CMR in doing that on a revenue sharing basis.

It takes a very high load factor on a 737 to make a buck at $59. The RJ, if properly managed, has a much lower break-even load factor, can offer much higher frequency (folks don't always want to go when the LCC decides they should), and is indeed able to compete --- in the right markets. All of the seats don't sell for the lowest rate.

When the RJ is used as it was intended, marketed properly and managed correctly (all of which Comair knew how to do far better than Delta) it can hold its own. Delta's utilization and deployment of the RJ is not the same as Comair's might have been. I'll grant you that times have changed a lot, but not enough to make the RJ useless (no matter how much you might like that). The fact is that Comair was far more profitable as CMR, than Delta has ever been. Your numbers are big and impressive, but the return on your investment is far less. There a lots of things that Delta does with its RJs, that Comair would not be doing if it wasn't owned by Delta. The two games are different and they are played differently.

RJs will NOT continue to grow at double-digit rates, but that is no surprise. No aircraft can continue to do that. The bigger you get, the slower the growth, when expressed as a percentage. That is true regardless of the type aircraft your airline operates.

The bottom line of all that is pretty simple. Growth is determined by market forces, not by the wishes of pilots or the size aircraft they would like to fly. That isn't going to change no matter how much we pilots choose to fight with each other over essentially meaningless issues.

So, what will you guys do as the remainder of the RJ flying (the 45 new ones) goes to the lowest bidder? It will be interesting.

We will do exactly what you do, dependent on the decisions made by management. Our growth rate will slow, may stagnate, or we might even see a decrease in the number of airframes deployed. That will not be the end of the world. It is how this business has always operated. Market forces will ultimately determine whether we grow or we don't grow.

It is only when pilots attempt to introduce artificial restraints on the market that we get into thse p-issing contests with each other. You all need to get out of the artificiall restriction business and let the market determine which aircraft are deployed, in what quantity and where.

You don't fly RJs and you never have. We don't fly "mainline" equipment and we are not going to. So, be happy with what you have. Stop trying to take what we have, and stop trying to restrict what we do. You don't see us complaining about how many 737's or 767's you operate. Tend to your own house and quit messing in our back yard. Protect your own flying in the "mainline" aircraft types, and leave our flying alone.

You all never hesitate to tell us how much better you have it. WE AGREE. You also don't hesitate to remind us 24/7 that we do NOT work for Delta. OK, we got the message. That's what you wanted and that's what you got. Now that your end of the business has taken a dump, you're PO'd because we don't fall over ourselves to give you seats at our airline.

Did you rush to give us seats on your airline when you were running high on the hog and hiring like gangbusters? The answer is NO. You didn't spend 10 minutes worrying about which one of us would be "hired at Delta", but now all of a sudden you expect us to get excited about your coming to work here. Give me a break man. If we had 10% of our pilots furloughed, would you be rushing to ensure that they got on the Delta list in preference to everyone else? If you are honest, you know the answer.

We are not against you, we don't hate you, we don't wish you evil. We wish you didn't have furloughed pilots and we hope they get recalled far sooner than later. We just don't see your furloughed pilots as being "preferred" to any of the other furloughed pilots from other airlines and it is not our responsibility to hire them in preference to anyone else. Why should we?

When you were hiring, did you see us as being "preferred" over applicants from other airlines? The answer is NO. You decided that we were a separate airline and not your concern. After your Company bought our company, you decided again that we were still separate and that's the way you wanted it to stay. Well, you got your wish. So why is it that you now feel that we are obligated to see you as "more special" than say a furloughed USAirways pilot?

I know you don't like it, but the fact is you are NOT "more special", you are really not even the same. You work for a "separate airline" and it just happens to be one that has made it crystal clear that it would like nothing better than to have all our airplanes transferred to you and flown by you. What might happen to us in that circumstance is nothing that you all worry about. At the very least, the pilots of other "mainline" carriers are not constantly trying to limit what we do. You all are.

General, YOU ALL are the one's that made this bed. It is the way it is because YOU ALL wanted it that way. When you were on top of the world the only thing you ever cared about, with relation to us, was how you could ensure that we would cease to exist or at the very least not grow at all. Now you want us to embrace you with open arms and pretend that you have loved us all along. I suppose that is human nature, but guess what --- we are humans too.

We have a lot of "new" people that may not know or understand what you have tried to do. We also have a lot more "old" people that do know and do understand. Just as you threaten to "remember what we have done", there are many of us that already remember what you have done and we don't like it either.

I guess you will do some expanding with the 30 or so Dojos---so that will be good for some of your senior FOs. I still wish there could be something done about the 1060 furloughs we have on the street. But, with the lackluster show of support from your whole pilot group, and the animosity lingering within our pilot group (not everyone, though), I fear nothing will happen on that front. I hope something does, though.

Since we have not rushed to "buy" those Dojets with concessions, I doubt we will get them. From my point of view, I don't really see them as a particularly great "asset" for our separate company. Since we don't make the decisions, if they come we will fly them. If they don't -- oh well. Perhaps they will come with their pilots. Who knows. What I do know, is that I see no reason whatever why we should gut our contract in an effort to get airplanes that Delta pilots might fly.

As for what you call the "lackluster show of support", I respectfully submit that it is far less lackluster than the overt show of animosity and resentment handed to us on a silver platter, by your pilot group, for well over a decade. Sometimes you reap what you sew.

I wish you all well, but I wish us well first. When your MEC alters its ways, I'm sure we'll reciprocate in kind. What happens is really up to you guys. Tokenism on our part isn't going to change your historical ways. I wish it were not so, but it is and wishes don't count.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

You seem to think that every Delta pilot is against you personally, and you always respond with a long laundry list of complaints---and I did not wish to extract that from you.

First of all, I do NOT know what you mean by, " I didn't answer your question about pilots on your list?" Can you give it to me again, I am a bit slow.... If you mean putting your guys on our list--I am all for it, as a staple. I remember talking with many Captains about that during our C2K contract talks---and everyone was fine with it then---as a staple. Then there was talk about "date of hire" B.S.----and that would NEVER float. You know that. Nobody knew 9-11 was coming, and it would have probably furloughed many of your pilots---but that was never forseen.

As far as the "$59" fare for the LCCs----not all of them are loss-lead numbers. I saw a Southwest ad in LAS for $29 to LAX and any of the 4 LA airports they served. $29 one way!! Could Airtran or Jetblue try that on the East Coast? Probably. they are going to get many many new airplanes---and Jetblue will be getting 100 of those EMB-190s----to put them all over the East Coast. 100 seats, vs 50 or some 70 seaters from us. We need to be using mainline planes (737s or bigger) to spread out the costs. The RJs make better money when they are flown on longer stage lengths---but up against an Airtran 717 with more room---we lose our best frequent flyer people who don't want to be cramped. Sad but true.

Next you say again that we put "artificial constraints" on you. Yeah, we do so we can still have a mainline. What else do you want to fly? Only more 70 seaters, right? Wrong. I bet you would love to under bid us (like CHQ is doing to you) for 737s etc. Let's give our managment HUGE bonuses---they can widdle our payscales down and Comair will now bid for the Song 757 flying....That is what WOULD happen. There has to be some sort of limits, or mainline would cease to exist except for some INTL 777s and 763s. Management doesn't care who flies the planes, but they do care about the costs----and they would love for you to have no limits on anything---giving you the right to fly mainline for less. And, more 70 seaters for you would translate into less mainline flying for us. Look what Delta has done with DCA-DFW, DCA-SNA, DCA-OAK. That is ridiculous! Oh, you might say that the routes and the loads warrent 70 seaters. Actually, they are restricting the number of passengers that they can bring into the hubs---so they are forcing people to make different choices because they cannot grow those markets with only 70 seats per plane. And, businessmen don't want to fly on long legs with no first class upgrades possible---they want room. And, those cities are big enough to support more seats---it is just Marketing is not doing a good enough job--come on! How big is DFW? How about the Orange County area of LA? Not enough rich people there who want to travel?? How about OAK or Washington D.C.?

AA Eagle uses a 70 seater from Fayettville, AR (home of Wallmart) to LAX---and that is what the 70 seaters should be used for. Flying high fare people from smaller cities with active business centers to the larger cities nonstop. Whomever came up with that routing was a genius. I bet it is jammed full everyday.

When you stated that you didn't think that we "hired" many of "your people" when we were hiring---you are wrong. We hired many many people from ASA/Comair---and that is a fact. Now, some of those same people that flew your RJs are on the street, and you won't even help them by putting them at the BOTTOM of your list. I call that lackluster support. All they wanted was to move on and try to make more money and fly bigger planes, and now they are unfortunate enough to be on the street, and Comair cannot make an "exception to the RULE" to help them out. ASA was the only one between you two that saw "the light" and understood that this was a terrible situation, and some "rules" needed to be changed. It is not like anyone over there at ASA was affected---most actually liked the fact that more people were coming in BELOW them. Will we change the rules when we eventually hire again? Yes, for the ASA pilots. If you think that we will just "forget" their help, you are wrong. Now I don't think that EVERY Comair pilot was in favor of the "golden rule" of not helping our furloughs by getting rid of the seniority resignation policy, but there should have been some more support for getting rid of it---and louder support. I, too, wonder what will happen with the 30 Dojos---you (just like us) may have priced yourselves right out of the market. (in their eyes) But, we have a contract that limits the number of codeshares, and gives actually limits on % flying. You, on the otherhand, have no scope protection and are currently being underbid as we speak.

Well my friend, I tried to write one as long as yours--but I think I failed. Take care.

Bye Bye--General Lee