ASA and Comair to merge

[surplus1]

Part 2 of 2

These are my thoughts on the flowthrough idea. I suspect that you won't like them and that no Delta pilot will like them.

1. If we make a flow-up agreement to the bottom of the Delta list, then the flow-back agreement will be to the bottom of the Comair/ASA list (not to the top).
2. In any flow-up/flow-back agreement, the number of people that flow-back can never exceed the number of people that flowed up.
3. Once the agreement is in place, ALL hiring must be to the bottom of the CMR/ASA list. No insertion of "outside" hiring that negates the flow-up.

I doubt seriously that you would get any Delta pilot to find that acceptable. By the same token you will never get somebody like me to agree to a flowthrough that would put furloughed Delta pilots into the left seat of CMR/ASA airplanes, and do nothing more than make ASA/CMR pilots furlough fodder for Delta mainline.

You would never get me to agree to anything that would place any Delta pilot ahead of any CMR/ASA pilot in the event of a flow-back. You will not get the Delta pilots to agree to place any CMR/ASA pilot ahead of any Delta pilot. That's the way it should be. Therefore, the concept of flowthrough (of the type we know) is a waste of time. It does not benefit our junior pilots that want to move to Delta and it harms all of our pilots in the event of a flow-back (which is far more likely). Now if we can break the mold and agree to something realistic (like 1,2,3 above), I'd be willing to discuss it.

Do not ignore the fact that Delta is a 10,000 pilot airline. A reduction in force of 20% would put 2,000 Delta pilots on the street. If we had a flow up/flow back of the Eagle or COEX type, that could put 2,000 ASA/CMR pilots on the street. Where would that leave you?

5) The combination of Comair/ASA would eliminate:
DUAL management's, CEOs and MANAGEMENT with their inflated pay, scheduling, ETC.

Yes, it probably would. So what? Do you honestly believe that the savings Delta would realize are greater than the risks it would incur from such a combination? If you do, Delta management doesn't seem to agree with you. From their perspective, the pilots would gain far more than Delta would "save" from such a plan. That means that you will have to come up with the difference that they think makes it worth their while. What do you estimate as the level of concessions we would have to make? Do you really have any idea? Does anyone have any idea, including the folks that made this "proposal"? I suspect the answer is NO. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'd like to know how much Delta would "save" and how much we would have to "pay". After I know that I can decide if I'm willing to pay that price.

SO TO MAKE IT HAPPEN:
You have to have a VERY LONG CONTRACT BUT MUCH IMPROVED LIKE AMERICAN EAGLE'S. COMAIR/ASA wouldn't lose out though because all of the flying is done by COMAIR/ASA and if the pay is: the average of the top 3 regional's pay + 5-10%
The pilots CAN NOT LOSE!! Comair/ASA would lose their contract negotiations every 4-5 years, but would they need a negotiation every 4-5 years???? ESPECIALLY if all the flying was done by them and they're ensured to always have the BEST PAY??

I wonder if you know that during the past negotiations at CMR, before the Delta buyout, the negotiators offered Comair a 10-year contract in exchange for certain things, Scope among them, and protection from the consequences of just what happened -- sale of the Company to another airline. They didn't agree and they didn't want it. It was more important to them to maintain their "flexibility" and their ability to "sell us out", which is exactly what they ultimately did. The truth is that with just one sentence or paragraph they could have protected every Comair pilot and prevented the unfriendly takeover of the Company. They said NO. Do you think Delta, Inc. is any different?

You may think that we "can not lose" by signing a very long contract like Eagle's. You are entitled to that opinion, but mine is very different. I don't see Delta as being anywhere near as "afraid" of us as you seem to. They're not afraid of 10,000 pilots at Delta mainline, so why should they be afraid of 3,500 at CMR/ASA? They already have all the leverage they need to deal with us. You want them to give that up in exchange for the chance to pay us more, and the loss of their flexibility to hire additional and cheaper subcontractors. For this you offer to give them "management savings" (which they can get without you at any time), the right to pay you 5-10% more than everyone else and a long contract? He!!, the 5-year contract they have now is really and 8-year contract by the time negotiations end. Don't you think they know that? How can you possibly predict where the industry might be 15 years down the road? Do you think that they can?

Why do you want this merger anyway? I ask again, what is the benefit that CMR and ASA pilots will gain from merging the two airlines? What will CMR and ASA pilots lose if we do NOT merge with each other? What part of this benefits Delta, Inc., that they can't already accomplish without our consent?

Shoot make it a 30 year CONTRACT! Would Delta management accept it then! I guarantee they would! This would completely eliminate the FEAR that makes the Comair/ASA merger so scary to them and why it PROBABLY WON'T HAPPEN.

If you are willing to make a 30-year contract, you might as well give yourself a 2% raise by getting rid of the union. If a union is going to sign a contract of that duration then we sure don't need the union.

You have a lot of good ideas but I don't think you've thought them through fully and I still don't understand your real motives. Help me out and tell me WHY this proposed merger is so important to you. Forgive me if I'm dense, but I do not understand what benefits we will derive from just a merger. Neither do I understand what we can't derive without a merger. Therefore, I see the merger as a nice idea but little else.

I do see the benefit of eliminating the subcontractors but I do not see how we could justify that to Delta, Inc., without bidding less than Mesa and gutting our contract accordingly. The "growth" might provide upgrades for 1//2 the list and a bunch of new hires. What would it provide for the other 1/2 of the list that has already upgraded? Believe me I don't want to be negative about this, but I just don't think it is very pragmatic.

I see a benefit to having one list with ASA and with Delta, but those "benefits" are all in favor of the pilots. I see nothing of special benefit to the Company. Companies don't make win/lose agreements unless they are the winners. Right now the Company does need concessions, but they need them from the Delta pilots, not from CMR or ASA. You can't really expect the Delta pilots to increase their concessions for the benefit of CMR and ASA. The Delta MEC Chairman can support this because it costs him or his pilots absolutely nothing and he might even gain something from the gesture. Otherwise you can bet your bottom dollar he wouldn't give you the time of day. Do not overlook the fact that the current DMEC Chair is the former Chairman of the DNC. You're not dealing with a babe in the woods. This is the same guy that negotiated away your rights to more 70-seaters and limited your flying in 50-seaters. You think he suddenly loves us? Nonsense! He has seen an opportunity to further the interests of the Delta pilots, at no cost or risk, and he took it. I would do the same if I were in his shoes.

If CMR and ASA pilots really want this merger, we had better be prepared to pay a very high price. In my opinion we can't pay enough to make the Company want it, unless we are willing to sell our very souls in the process. I'm not willing to do that and I hope you will give it some more thought before you decide to jump of the cliff for a very dubious benefit.

I hope that you and others don't get so caught up in the "wanting" that you give up just about everything in exchange for a question mark. Think it through please. ALL of it, not just the parts that you find attractive.

Respectfully,

 

[DDpaysoff]

____________________________________________________
""Why do you want this merger anyway? I ask again, what is the benefit that CMR and ASA pilots will gain from merging the two airlines? What will CMR and ASA pilots lose if we do NOT merge with each other? What part of this benefits Delta, Inc., that they can't already accomplish without our consent?""
____________________________________________________



I know this question was not addressed to me, but I would like to chip in. I want the whipsawing to stop between the two groups. As soon as somebody moves and takes a small cut, or gives the company an extra day off, or relieves the duty rig for cd's etc., a year will go by and another rfp goes up for bid. How do you think most of the Comair group will act the second time around after they have seen no movement and ASA goes out and hires 400 pilots w/ 350 upgrades? There is no limit on who can do flying under the DAL code, in order to protect future flying we would have to pay for it, I think most of my pilot group understands that. As a combined carrier CMR and ASA would have equal work rules and pay and we could negotiate or decline to negotiate as one for future growth and not have to worry about what carrot is being dangled to the other wholly owned. I for one as well as my classmate jetflyer have a lot of personal gain from a merger, we also have some personal loss from a merger. We have approx 400 people below us, putting us around top 78%, after a merger we would have approximatly 450 people below us and be about top 87%.
However, some things are bigger than any one individual and their personal gain/loss from a possible merger. The pilot group as a whole is the most important thing and protecting future flying and our contract. All I hear on our alpa board is I,me I, III,I. People, please keep in mind some things are bigger than just you. Let's hear the details and make an informed decision based on what our mec's and company presents to us. Again, this is not targeted at any one person and I have not seen any kind of example of that kind of behavior on this board, I think you know who I am talking about.
I am pleased that our MEC's are working together regardless of any potential outcome from this proposal.



Quote
____________________________________________________
""Delta MEC Chairman can support this because it costs him or his pilots absolutely nothing and he might even gain something from the gesture. Otherwise you can bet your bottom dollar he wouldn't give you the time of day. Do not overlook the fact that the current DMEC Chair is the former Chairman of the DNC. You're not dealing with a babe in the woods. This is the same guy that negotiated away your rights to more 70-seaters and limited your flying in 50-seaters. You think he suddenly loves us? Nonsense! He has seen an opportunity to further the interests of the Delta pilots, at no cost or risk, and he took it. I would do the same if I were in his shoes.""
____________________________________________________



The exact same situation but opposite actions of our MEC's stance on hiring DAL pilots. Nothing to lose, to just say yes, we would like to have some of their furloughs fly with us. Company makes the ultimate decision anyway, and what are we talking about a dozen pilots or so. That was flat out wrong, and I am embarrassed about how that was handled, and I don't think I represent the minority of our pilots viewpoints on that. IMO that this situation can be handled better.

 

[Cash]

yes

 

[shamrock]

How do you think most of the Comair group will act the second time around after they have seen no movement and ASA goes out and hires 400 pilots w/ 350 upgrades?


Hopefully the same way the ASA group has this past year. With the Brakillya's retirement and no new hiring in a year many of us have been stagnant or have moved down on aircraft seniority while (I believe) Comair has expanded.

Personally, I'm not crazy about seeing Comair all over ATL, because I want it to be ASA. That being said, I'd rather it be Comair than a contract carrier. I would like to think that this would be view of the Comair group if the tables were turned.

I don't mean to take this out of context, but the statement kind of jumped out at me.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

This Comair pilot 100% concurs, shamrock. And with our ASA brethren deep into the negotiations process, I will not be management's instrument of intimidation.

ASA has had only limited access to Terminal C in DVG over the years, I sure hope you have always been made to feel welcome.

 

[DDpaysoff]

I knew when I was typing that sentence, that somebody would come back on that. If it is any consolation after a merger it wouldn't matter where you were for 2003. My point was the whipsaw game would be played again and again every year. I think we have already demonstrated that these two groups will not sell each other out.

 

[WWEfan]

I agree that our 2 pilot groups will not sell each other out. I give a tremendous amount of credit to our 2 MEC's for their joint efforts to end the whipsaw. Thanks to both MEC's for all you do.

 

[surplus1]

I know this question was not addressed to me, but I would like to chip in.

Thanks for your post. Your points are well made, very welcome (by me) and I think I understand them. Here are some counterpoints for your consideration.

I want the whipsawing to stop between the two groups.

I would like to stop whipsawing as well. However, the real "whipsawing" is not between ASA and CMR. It is between ASA/CMR and the subcontractors. If there were no subcontractors there would be no "RFP". A merger between ASA and CMR will NOT stop the whipsawing. That is the flaw in the formula.

ASA and CMR have supported each other for a long time. We can and should continue to do so without "buying" a merger that will be of little benefit to either of our groups. The savings that Delta, Inc. could realize from such a merger can be attained at the stroke of a pen without our participation.

If Comair doesn't sellout ASA, and if ASA doesn't sellout Comair, whipsawing between us is minimal to nonexistant. Disparity between the ASA & CMR contracts is already minimal. ASA is negotiating now. Without absolute support from Comair, the ONLY thing that prevents ASA from achieving parity with the CMR PWA is not whipsaw between the two, it is whipsaw between "us" and the subcontractors. I say again, a merger will do nothing to prevent that.

I am not opposed per se to the idea of a merger between ASA & CMR. However, if such a merger does not phase out the subcontracting scenario, by obtaining the written guarantee of Delta, Inc., it will in reality be nothing more than a feel good gesture. The whipsaw will continue or intensify. I see no reason why ASA or Comair pilots should "buy" something that we already have for free, merely by sticking together.

If the Company (Delta) wants us to "buy" something, then it must offer something of value in exchange for our money. Merging with ASA and leaving everything else the same, is "NO SALE" in my book.

As soon as somebody moves and takes a small cut, or gives the company an extra day off, or relieves the duty rig for cd's etc., a year will go by and another rfp goes up for bid.

You seem to be making my point. That is exactly what will happen if either CMR or ASA make concession merely to merge with each other. The flying will go to the lowest bidder, i.e., CHQ, SKYW or some "new guy" on the block. Merger will not prevent that.

By coordinated bargaining in consort, ASA & CMR can avoid so-called RFP's between the two companies. The threat we need to fight is external. There are very effective ways for ASA/CMR to work together that do not require a merger of the groups. This can be done internally. Spending negotiating capital on a merger of the corporations, while leaving the external threat in place is, to put it bluntly, a waste of capital.

How do you think most of the Comair group will act the second time around after they have seen no movement and ASA goes out and hires 400 pilots w/ 350 upgrades?

That statement really bothers me. I hope you don't mean what it sounds like you said. Comair has expanded more than ASA in recent times and the ASA pilots have continued to support us. I would certainly expect that Comair pilots would continue to support ASA if it should go the other way.

In its history to date, the Comair pilot group has never undercut any other pilot group for gain. Your statement implies that we might in the future. I have to tell you that if that is the thinking of those that have joined us in the last 3 years, I would be extremely disappointed. It would make us very different from what we have been and leave nothing worth fighting for. JMO.

There is no limit on who can do flying under the DAL code, in order to protect future flying we would have to pay for it, I think most of my pilot group understands that.

Since I think you and I belong to the same pilot group I'm not so sure that I agree with what you say "most" of us understand. What I think "most of the pilot group" understands or should understand is that you should pay nothing for anything that you are not guaranteed you will get. If the only thing that we get for what we "pay" is a merger with ASA, we will have won the battle and lost the war.

As a combined carrier CMR and ASA would have equal work rules and pay and we could negotiate or decline to negotiate as one for future growth and not have to worry about what carrot is being dangled to the other wholly owned.

Sorry, but I can't agree with that. The Company (Delta) isn't dangling carrots between CMR and ASA. It is pitting its subsidiaries against its subcontractors. That's very different.

First of all CMR and ASA can achieve equal work rules and pay without a merger. We can negotiate or decline to negotiate, in unity, without a merger. The concept of "negotiating for growth" is a fallacy and should not be adopted. Growth will be determined by market forces and not by concessions in our compensation packages. In my opinion we should negotiate to protect the jobs that we already have, not the potential jobs that may or may not come in the future. We can only protect our current jobs by controlling who does the flying in the types of equipment that we operate now or in the future, i.e., the RJs. If we achieve that, "growth" will come when market forces warrant it. The idea that you can create growth by working for inferior compensation is a management ploy that should be avoided like the plague that it is by all pilot groups. It is extremely unfortunate that some "regional" pilot groups don't seem to recognize this. I certainly hope that CMR and ASA will not join them.

You don't see any of the mega airline groups "negotiating for growth" and especially not making concessions for promised growth. That is patently foolish. They negotiate for the security of what they have and the retention or improvement of their compensation packages. They make concessions to save what they have, i.e., jobs, not for growth. In that respect we would do well to emulate them and not follow the uninitiated regional groups that are willing to buy "pie in the sky".

I am pleased that our MEC's are working together regardless of any potential outcome from this proposal.

I am also pleased that the ASA and CMR MEC's continue to work together as they have for many years. I see no reason why that should change nor do I see any danger that it will. We do not have to buy our loyalty to and support for each other by giving any part of our compensation to the Company. The Company cannot put a wedge between ASA and CMR unless WE choose to let them. If we are dumb enough to do that, then we deserve whatever we get.

The exact same situation but opposite actions of our MEC's stance on hiring DAL pilots. Nothing to lose, to just say yes, we would like to have some of their furloughs fly with us. Company makes the ultimate decision anyway, and what are we talking about a dozen pilots or so. That was flat out wrong, and I am embarrassed about how that was handled, and I don't think I represent the minority of our pilots viewpoints on that. IMO that this situation can be handled better.

Well, I don't know whether you are in the majority or the minority. What I do know is that you and I do not agree on that issue. Since it is a separate issue I won't debate it here. Suffice to say I disagree with your position and fully support the decision of our MEC.

Thanks again for your comments.

 

[PositiveRate]

Surplus,

As usual, you make excellent and well-reasoned points. It would be wise for the rest of our Comair brothers and sisters to listen to your views.

The merger i'd like to see would be DAL/CMR/ASA and the elimination of the contract carriers. CMR/ASA DOH and then staple to DAL with appropriate fences and furlough protection as well as job opportunities for DAL furloughees. All delta flying would be done by this threesome. Anything else is just a waste of time and money.

I guess we'll know how this is going to play out when they announce the recipient(s) of the next round of aircraft in a few weeks.

Regardless, and I'm sure i speak for many, I will not vote to give up a dam*ed cent to do a job I'm already underpaid for...i don't care what the offer is. We're trained, educated and expected to act/perform as a professionals...but they try to railroad us into thinking we don't deserve to be paid as such. I don't think so!

 

[TanJMcAdams]

Take it from someone who has been there (AE). Any contract longer than 4 years is a waste of bargaining power. I already left eagle for this very reason. Don't do it.

James

 

[wms]

The merger i'd like to see would be DAL/CMR/ASA and the elimination of the contract carriers. CMR/ASA DOH and then staple to DAL with appropriate fences and furlough protection as well as job opportunities for DAL furloughees.

This is probably the next step if DALPA wants to get the 1060 back to work the quickest. Why else would they and ALPA throw their support behind it? See "protection for DAL/DCI brand" in DALPA's counter proposal. With DALPA making this a condition for their concessions, it helps the possibility of at least a seniority merger.

Hopefully all labor groups within ASA/CA see the benefit to limiting future DCI growth to ASA/CA. Our mgmt has said the best thing for our company would be growth, and this is the best way for all future growth to go to the WOs. The best way to grow is not at the expense of your own employees, but in a way that we can all contribute and feel the work has paid off. No employee feels their work is paying off when they fall behind and mgmt gets a bigger house in Peachtree City. The WO mgmt should be pleased that we're doing what we can to keep all growth within "their" companies.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

For what I am about to say, I would suggest Gen Lee first sit down.

This would be the perfect time for our three MEC's to put an end to the whip saw. We all could give some sort of concessions for a trade.

We, all three pilot groups, would insist that all of Delta's flying be brough in house. How ever much flying needed to bring back ALL furloughs would be determined and the transfer of routes back to Comair and ASA would start immediately.

With 45 crj's plus 32 dojets plus the 23 70 seaters due Comair and ASA next year, we could have them back in no time. I understand that the 45 are not due to start delivery until 05, but the 32 dojets could start coming early next year.

As Delta recalls, we can hire to replace them. As a combined airline, us and ASA could easily train 50 or more a month.

It is a win win situation, and I hope this is something the three MEC's are talking about.

 

[wms]

This would be the perfect time for our three MEC's to put an end to the whip saw. We all could give some sort of concessions for a trade.

Mention was made by someone up the thread that the whipsawing is between the WOs and the contract carriers, and this is true. But already the company has been pandering to the other employee groups about how our MEC's response to the contract extension will adversely affect growth. The whipsawing now will be within the companies between labor groups. Mgmt would rather damage their own company from within than address the true issue, that being WO growth. They should be more aggressive with DAL/DCI and FB and realize that our proposals would help them grow their companies. Secretly at least, they should hope that we succeed against the recent low-balling from DAL/DCI.

All employees would benefit from exclusive growth at the WOs, and all would stagnate just like us if growth stops. We should be quick to express this to them(rampers, agents, mech, schedulers, etc) as we interact with them on the job.

 

[General Lee]

Afellowaviator,

I agree with you. I have always thought that we would be a better team together. We should use our strengths more. I am also glad that our furloughs should get some attention that they deserve. I am not in favor of any DCI member getting furloughed in the process, just some help for those out on the street now--and that could be decided by the three MECs. Getting them back into the cockpit somehow is important, even at the bottom of the list. Take care.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Cash]

one of many good quotes

from wms
The best way to grow is not at the expense of your own employees, but in a way that we can all contribute and feel the work has paid off.

yes