ASA and Comair to merge

[FL000]

I don't have a current list but the percentage with less than 5 or 6 years is overwhelming.

I'd estimate it at 65-70% without looking at a list.

 

[embraerdriver]

This CONVERSATION IS A WASTE OF OUR TIME if we CAN'T ELIMINATE management's Fear of ONE GIANT UNION GROUP striking every 4-5 years. I know I'm starting to sound redundant but what a waste of time this conversation is unless we get rid of management's fears. I think this is the only way:

THE ULTIMATE SOLUTION:

1) KEEP ASA/COMAIR always at the TOP of the payscale.
AVERAGE of the top 3 REGIONALS PAY + 5-10%.
-THIS WOULD BE ADJUSTED YEARLY. If the average pay went down in a year, then ASA/COMAIR's pay would stay the same that year.

2) Give ASA/COMAIR good TRIP/DUTY rigs, cancellation pay, deadhead pay, and COMAIR's 401K and retirement contributions.

3) MAKE ALL DELTA CONNECTION FLYING done by ASA/COMAIR
The flying of ACA/Skywest/CHQ would be replaced slowly over 6 years.

4) ADD a FLOWTHROUGH with a NO FLOWBACK clause where ASA/COMAIR PILOTS go to the BOTTOM of the DELTA list if they WANT TO. A ton of the senior ASA/Comair guys don't want this unless they can be 767 captains right away with an integration. But you don't have to go to Delta if you don't want to. I'd go in a heartbeat and so would a lot of other pilots.

5) The combination of Comair/ASA would eliminate:
DUAL management's, CEOs and MANAGEMENT with their inflated pay, scheduling, ETC.

HOW would the pilots lose out on this??? Why would the DELTA management agree to this? IF THE FEAR OF a STRIKE every 4-5 years from this massive UNION group is eliminated.


SO TO MAKE IT HAPPEN:
You have to have a VERY LONG CONTRACT BUT MUCH IMPROVED LIKE AMERICAN EAGLE'S.

COMAIR/ASA wouldn't lose out though because all of the flying is done by COMAIR/ASA and if the pay is:

the average of the top 3 regional's pay + 5-10%
The pilots CAN NOT LOSE!!

Comair/ASA would lose their contract negotiations every 4-5 years, but would they need a negotiation every 4-5 years???? ESPECIALLY if all the flying was done by them and they're ensured to always have the BEST PAY??

Shoot make it a 30 year CONTRACT! Would Delta management accept it then! I guarantee they would! This would completely eliminate the FEAR that makes the Comair/ASA merger so scary to them and why it PROBABLY WON'T HAPPEN.



Jet

JET,

Here we go again with this "Holier than Thou" crap. Jet, get real man. You actually think that DAL is going to go for those terms? How would that save them money? Why would DAL pilots give concessions so that you can get a raise?

Bottom line is that WO DCI carriers "THINK" they are best, but in reality; The numbers(performance) reflect yet another thing.

Nothing you can agree to on paper is going to make DAL go to a all WO DCI, especially since the NON WO do a great job. If they are smart they will never again open themselves up for another situation like what happened with the Comair strike. If they do they are more ignorant than I thought. What was it something like $870 million lost on the comair strike. Wouldn't that money be nice right now?

On one hand I am glad that Comair struck, they helped stand up for the regional position in the airlines, and as a result CHQ is now a DCI NON WO carrier. On the other hand, this was self inflicted and a result of the action(the strike). Now the reaction is Smart for DAL to protect themselves and-in a word and that offends people.

Whatever,
EMB

 

[sleepy]

"Bottom line is that WO DCI carriers "THINK" they are best, but in reality; The numbers(performance) reflect yet another thing."


Hey Taco, please don't tell me you are compairing the drop in the bucket of DCI flying that you do to what we do at ASA and Comair.

DAL will do whatever is in their long-term interest to do, and if that means cutting a deal with DAL, ASA, and Comair pilots that sends you packing, then they will do it. Hopefully we can work it out.

 

[ASAFOE120]

Well, I'm beginning to think that now is the time that we at ASA/CMR must make a stand on this issue. Our firm oders for aircraft are nearing an end. So from now on if Delta wants to operate more rejional jet aircraft, are they going to open it up for a bid and send them to the lowest bidder? If so, then it appears that ASA/CMR may not receive any more aircraft without concessions. So as the NON-WO carriers continue to receive aircraft from Delta, we stagnate and continue to get pushed to the side. Eventually the NON-WO carriers enter ATL and continue to expand service out of CVG and DFW. They allready fly many of the same routes that we at ASA/CMR into/out of the hubs.
Eventually, we try to make a stand on this issue and Delta will be like " so what, yall are such a small portion of this pie anyway, go ahead and we'll just send your aircraft somewhere else when the leases run out" (such as whats happening to the ALG/PDT pilots.

Maybe now is the time to make a stand before its too late and we dont have any legs to stand on.

Just my thoughts after reading some of these posts.
Anybody else see it this way???
CRJ FO

 

[General Lee]

N813CA,

Don't mix the facts, I was there pre-9-11 too, and I know what was said. I don't think one Delta pilot would have minded stapling the DCI guys to the bottom, and at that time it would have been a great deal. Nobody knew that 9-11 was coming. But, there were a lot of people that wanted date of hire---and that is where it all fell apart.

As far as now, I don't think anyone would want to displace one DCI pilot, or get anyone "furloughed." I think the majority or furloughed DL pilots would like the opportunity to fly right seat at somewhere stable until this while thing flies by and they can come back to mainline. IF our guys were allowed to take some of the new posistions created, I think that the DCI guys should be allowed to take some of the new positions created someday when all of the furloughs are called back and we start expanding again. There should be some deal worked out that allows movement between the airlines without hurting anyone. You help us now, and we'll reciprocate when things get better.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

Originally posted by embraerdriver

Here we go again with this "Holier than Thou" crap. Jet, get real man.

What, exactly, are you describing as "holier than thou" about his post? That CMR and ASA pilots are looking for a way to increase their job security? (that is the part you were focused on in your rebuttal) Isn't your post motivated by protecting your own job security?

Nothing you can agree to on paper is going to make DAL go to a all WO DCI, especially since the NON WO do a great job.

Never say never, right? In my opinion, if CMR, ASA, and even DAL pilots focus on "Career protection within Delta/DCI brand," as mentioned in another thread, then it is not a matter of if, but when.

Striking is not exclusive to wo's, as you know very well, I'm sure. That CHQ didn't have to strike is great, but you may have to one day, and that will cost your revenue partners as well as your parent company. Sure, the financial impact of an ASA or CMR (or combined) strike is much worse, but there is still a financial impact from a non-wo strike too. While Jet's post is conjecture and likely not to happen this time around, it's far from "holier than thou."

Good luck EMB, I'm sure CHQ will be just fine.

 

[DDpaysoff]

Anybody else see it this way???
CRJ FO [/B]

Yep.

 

[601Pilot]

In a related matter, why have we (ASA) not
instituted an increased maintenance write-up
program or slow-down to speed up these negotiations? It was prevalent during the last
negotiations period. Anyone have a guess?

 

[wms]

Anybody else see it this way???

Me too. And hopefully DALPA with their "career protection within the DAL/DCI brand" statement.

In a related matter...

With mgmt and our MEC saying that negotiations are going well it would not be appropriate, and would send a signal that we no longer desire to negotiate in good faith. For now, be positive and continue to do a good job. With this possibly continuing until early '05 it's easy to be impatient, but let the process run its course.

 

[surplus1]

Part 1 of 2

Originally posted by jetflyer

[Re:]THE ULTIMATE SOLUTION:

I don't mean to bash you or flame you, but some of your thinking bothers me. I've been reading your posts on the subject with interest but I'm having a lot of problems with understanding what you want and more importantly (for me) why you want it. Maybe you can help me to understand if you could answer a couple of questions for me/us:

1. What is the real reason that you think this proposed merger between ASA/CMR is a good idea?

2. What are the benefits that you assume will come to ASA and CMR pilots from doing this?

I would also like to make some comments on your "Ultimate Solution" ideas. You have a lot of ideas but to me, not many of them make a lot of sense from a practical point of view. My ideas are no better than yours, for like yours, they are only opinions. However, we are not on the same frequency with this deal, so I'd like to tell you why.

The long-term welfare of my pilot group as a whole, IS important to me. I want to protect the seniors AND the juniors. I'm not willing to sacrifice the juniors to protect the seniors and I am not willing to sacrifice the seniors in an effort to enhance career opportunities for the juniors. In my thinking, junior and senior must both benefit from whatever we do.

Let's go to the specifics of your ideas.

1) KEEP ASA/COMAIR always at the TOP of the payscale. AVERAGE of the top 3 REGIONALS PAY + 5-10%.

It sounds like what you are proposing is what is known as an indexing system for determining our basic book rates. Such a system is in place at Alaska and Eagle. I believe that USAirways (not sure) had a similar system before the bankruptcy. I guaranteed that they would always have parity plus with the industry leaders.

Indexing has worked for Alaska (so far). That is because they are a small airline (about the size of Comair) and their pay was "indexed" to carriers like UAL, DAL, NWA and AA. That agreement was signed a long time ago. They have had an arbitration system for settling disputes (thus avoiding extensive negotiations). It has worked well primarily because the "index" was narrow (similar to yours) and it was reasonably safe for them to assume that the "Big Three or Four" major airlines would have the highest pay rates in similar equipment. We'll have to see what happens when their current negotiations are over.

Eagle also has an "indexing system", which I believe they were "sold", by union "officials" who did not fly for Eagle, in part on the basis of the ALK model. In my opinion, both of the union officials that sold the EGL group on its current contract came from "failed airlines", neither of which currently exist. At least one of these officials was noted for concessionary bargaining at his own airline. I think the EGL leadership of the time got suckered into a very bad deal. I thought so when it happened and I haven't changed my mind. They've been living in the hell of false expectations ever since. I would not want to see ASA or CMR repeat that debacle.

Unlike Alaska, the "index" at Eagle is broader (includes more airlines). Of greater significance is which airlines it includes and the relative instability of "regional" carriers as compared to "mega airlines". So far, the Eagle "index" has managed to keep Eagle at or near the bottom of the pay scales among regional carriers and the arbitration system has proved to be virtually useless. In my opinion, it was a mistake for Eagle to agree to this index. It was also a mistake to agree to a 16-year contract and the arbitration process. What they did was give up their right to collective bargaining. What they got in return was obviously not what they expected.

When you apply an "indexing system" to Comair and ASA (as you suggest), the first thing that you do is remove our ability to negotiate our own book rates. You also eliminate the inclusion of CMR and ASA from the index. [Have you considered who this would leave at what you call "the top 3" and what the real differences might be]? Since you have no control over what the pilots of other airlines choose to negotiate/agree to as basic book rates, you have to assume that they will keep their rates at levels that would result in something that you would find satisfactory. Since there is no way that you can guarantee or control what these other airlines might do, it simply means that you give them the right to negotiate your pay. Is that really what you want to do?

What happens if they all agree to Mesa or PSA book rates or do something like SKYW did? Even though you suggest a 5 - 10% "override", you could still wind up with a major pay cut, simply because the pilots at some other airline have decided to "work for less". Is that really what you want to risk? In my opinion there are far too many unanswered questions in the "regional carriers", and far too many differences between them, to make this system practical in application. "Be careful what you ask for, you might get it."

2) Give ASA/COMAIR good TRIP/DUTY rigs, cancellation pay, deadhead pay, and COMAIR's 401K and retirement contributions.

IMHO, Comair already has good trip/duty rigs. Especially considering that most "regional" carriers have none at all and ours are equal to or better than several major airlines. I really don't understand what you think is inferior about the Comair rigs or who you are comparing them to. I'll grant you that they are not the "best" in the industry but they are reasonable for an airline like ours. With respect to the 401K and especially the "retirement", Comair is again ahead of almost every regional. Maybe I'm wrong, but I see no problem with our current contract in this area. I also see that we have much to lose if we try to change this now. Waiting for Section 6 would be far better IMO.

3) MAKE ALL DELTA CONNECTION FLYING done by ASA/COMAIR

OK. From my perspective this is a key element and very desirable. What you are really saying is that Comair and ASA need Scope that protects their flying. I agree. This is the toughest element in the equation; the most difficult to achieve. At Comair it was not achieved in the '94 contract because Comair pilots felt that pay was more important than the job security that Scope provides. We got what we asked for and time has proven we were wrong. In the last negotiations/strike we also did not obtain any protection of our flying. There were several reason for that. 1) ALPA convinced our negotiators that it was not achievable. 2) Given that we wound up with a change of ownership during the negotiations it became virtually impossible. 3) Our union denied us the right to bargain directly with our new employer.[/u]

That right to bargain with our "true" employer remains an obstacle today. Like it or not, neither Comair or ASA is authorized by Delta to negotiate who will or will not do Delta Connection flying, and ALPA does not allow the ASA or CMR MEC's to negotiate directly with Delta, Inc.. Unless we can negotiate directly with Delta, Inc', and unless Delta, Inc. signs off on it, any agreement with respect to DCI flying, made with CMR or ASA, is meaningless.

If and when Delta management agrees to bargain with CMR/ASA we might be able to agree on something. Anything else is a waste of time. We need to understand that simple reality before we offer to give away the farm. Merging Comair with ASA will change nothing in this area. So why do we want to do it?

4) ADD a FLOWTHROUGH with a NO FLOWBACK clause where ASA/COMAIR PILOTS go to the BOTTOM of the DELTA list if they WANT TO.

Interesting. I notice you got a lot of flack from others on this idea and you've been told that the Delta pilots will not agree to a flowthrough without a flowback. This will rattle some pin-feathers, but the fact is the Delta pilots don't have to agree to anything. We don't have to negotiate flowthrough with the Delta pilots. They do not control who Delta hires nor how they go about it (they just think they do). Flowthrough has to be negotiated with Delta Management. No more no less.

In spite of that, it is reasonable to assume that the Delta pilots would oppose their company making a flowthrough agreement that they don't like. Reality is that Delta is not likely to do that without their agreement. IMO, it is not likely that the Delta pilots would support a flow-up if it does not include a flow-back. So, while we do not have to negotiate with the Delta pilots, for practical reasons, we would need them not to oppose what we propose.

The fact that you even mention flowthrough tells me that you would like to be a Delta pilot. That's fine. You can apply without a flowthrough. You can also apply at any other airline that you prefer over Comair. We don't need a flowthrough just to get you or anyone else a number on the Delta list.

First, the creation of a flowthrough would remove all incentive for ASA and CMR pilots to improve conditions on our own property. That is something that I would not want. I certainly don't want to give up my opportunity to improve my working conditions so that you can get a guaranteed job at Delta at some unknown time in the future. Why should I?

Second, (which all junior pilots seem to ignore) if we did establish a flow through, who do you think would flow first? I'll answer that -- the most senior pilots. How many pilots would have to "flow" before the junior pilots that want this would get a chance? Just pick your own seniority number (after we merge with ASA) and that will give you and idea of how long it would take you to get there. By when do you think Delta will hire that many pilots?

Continued

 

[surplus1]

Part 2 of 2

These are my thoughts on the flowthrough idea. I suspect that you won't like them and that no Delta pilot will like them.

1. If we make a flow-up agreement to the bottom of the Delta list, then the flow-back agreement will be to the bottom of the Comair/ASA list (not to the top).
2. In any flow-up/flow-back agreement, the number of people that flow-back can never exceed the number of people that flowed up.
3. Once the agreement is in place, ALL hiring must be to the bottom of the CMR/ASA list. No insertion of "outside" hiring that negates the flow-up.

I doubt seriously that you would get any Delta pilot to find that acceptable. By the same token you will never get somebody like me to agree to a flowthrough that would put furloughed Delta pilots into the left seat of CMR/ASA airplanes, and do nothing more than make ASA/CMR pilots furlough fodder for Delta mainline.

You would never get me to agree to anything that would place any Delta pilot ahead of any CMR/ASA pilot in the event of a flow-back. You will not get the Delta pilots to agree to place any CMR/ASA pilot ahead of any Delta pilot. That's the way it should be. Therefore, the concept of flowthrough (of the type we know) is a waste of time. It does not benefit our junior pilots that want to move to Delta and it harms all of our pilots in the event of a flow-back (which is far more likely). Now if we can break the mold and agree to something realistic (like 1,2,3 above), I'd be willing to discuss it.

Do not ignore the fact that Delta is a 10,000 pilot airline. A reduction in force of 20% would put 2,000 Delta pilots on the street. If we had a flow up/flow back of the Eagle or COEX type, that could put 2,000 ASA/CMR pilots on the street. Where would that leave you?

5) The combination of Comair/ASA would eliminate:
DUAL management's, CEOs and MANAGEMENT with their inflated pay, scheduling, ETC.

Yes, it probably would. So what? Do you honestly believe that the savings Delta would realize are greater than the risks it would incur from such a combination? If you do, Delta management doesn't seem to agree with you. From their perspective, the pilots would gain far more than Delta would "save" from such a plan. That means that you will have to come up with the difference that they think makes it worth their while. What do you estimate as the level of concessions we would have to make? Do you really have any idea? Does anyone have any idea, including the folks that made this "proposal"? I suspect the answer is NO. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'd like to know how much Delta would "save" and how much we would have to "pay". After I know that I can decide if I'm willing to pay that price.

SO TO MAKE IT HAPPEN:
You have to have a VERY LONG CONTRACT BUT MUCH IMPROVED LIKE AMERICAN EAGLE'S. COMAIR/ASA wouldn't lose out though because all of the flying is done by COMAIR/ASA and if the pay is: the average of the top 3 regional's pay + 5-10%
The pilots CAN NOT LOSE!! Comair/ASA would lose their contract negotiations every 4-5 years, but would they need a negotiation every 4-5 years???? ESPECIALLY if all the flying was done by them and they're ensured to always have the BEST PAY??

I wonder if you know that during the past negotiations at CMR, before the Delta buyout, the negotiators offered Comair a 10-year contract in exchange for certain things, Scope among them, and protection from the consequences of just what happened -- sale of the Company to another airline. They didn't agree and they didn't want it. It was more important to them to maintain their "flexibility" and their ability to "sell us out", which is exactly what they ultimately did. The truth is that with just one sentence or paragraph they could have protected every Comair pilot and prevented the unfriendly takeover of the Company. They said NO. Do you think Delta, Inc. is any different?

You may think that we "can not lose" by signing a very long contract like Eagle's. You are entitled to that opinion, but mine is very different. I don't see Delta as being anywhere near as "afraid" of us as you seem to. They're not afraid of 10,000 pilots at Delta mainline, so why should they be afraid of 3,500 at CMR/ASA? They already have all the leverage they need to deal with us. You want them to give that up in exchange for the chance to pay us more, and the loss of their flexibility to hire additional and cheaper subcontractors. For this you offer to give them "management savings" (which they can get without you at any time), the right to pay you 5-10% more than everyone else and a long contract? He!!, the 5-year contract they have now is really and 8-year contract by the time negotiations end. Don't you think they know that? How can you possibly predict where the industry might be 15 years down the road? Do you think that they can?

Why do you want this merger anyway? I ask again, what is the benefit that CMR and ASA pilots will gain from merging the two airlines? What will CMR and ASA pilots lose if we do NOT merge with each other? What part of this benefits Delta, Inc., that they can't already accomplish without our consent?

Shoot make it a 30 year CONTRACT! Would Delta management accept it then! I guarantee they would! This would completely eliminate the FEAR that makes the Comair/ASA merger so scary to them and why it PROBABLY WON'T HAPPEN.

If you are willing to make a 30-year contract, you might as well give yourself a 2% raise by getting rid of the union. If a union is going to sign a contract of that duration then we sure don't need the union.

You have a lot of good ideas but I don't think you've thought them through fully and I still don't understand your real motives. Help me out and tell me WHY this proposed merger is so important to you. Forgive me if I'm dense, but I do not understand what benefits we will derive from just a merger. Neither do I understand what we can't derive without a merger. Therefore, I see the merger as a nice idea but little else.

I do see the benefit of eliminating the subcontractors but I do not see how we could justify that to Delta, Inc., without bidding less than Mesa and gutting our contract accordingly. The "growth" might provide upgrades for 1//2 the list and a bunch of new hires. What would it provide for the other 1/2 of the list that has already upgraded? Believe me I don't want to be negative about this, but I just don't think it is very pragmatic.

I see a benefit to having one list with ASA and with Delta, but those "benefits" are all in favor of the pilots. I see nothing of special benefit to the Company. Companies don't make win/lose agreements unless they are the winners. Right now the Company does need concessions, but they need them from the Delta pilots, not from CMR or ASA. You can't really expect the Delta pilots to increase their concessions for the benefit of CMR and ASA. The Delta MEC Chairman can support this because it costs him or his pilots absolutely nothing and he might even gain something from the gesture. Otherwise you can bet your bottom dollar he wouldn't give you the time of day. Do not overlook the fact that the current DMEC Chair is the former Chairman of the DNC. You're not dealing with a babe in the woods. This is the same guy that negotiated away your rights to more 70-seaters and limited your flying in 50-seaters. You think he suddenly loves us? Nonsense! He has seen an opportunity to further the interests of the Delta pilots, at no cost or risk, and he took it. I would do the same if I were in his shoes.

If CMR and ASA pilots really want this merger, we had better be prepared to pay a very high price. In my opinion we can't pay enough to make the Company want it, unless we are willing to sell our very souls in the process. I'm not willing to do that and I hope you will give it some more thought before you decide to jump of the cliff for a very dubious benefit.

I hope that you and others don't get so caught up in the "wanting" that you give up just about everything in exchange for a question mark. Think it through please. ALL of it, not just the parts that you find attractive.

Respectfully,

 

[DDpaysoff]

____________________________________________________
""Why do you want this merger anyway? I ask again, what is the benefit that CMR and ASA pilots will gain from merging the two airlines? What will CMR and ASA pilots lose if we do NOT merge with each other? What part of this benefits Delta, Inc., that they can't already accomplish without our consent?""
____________________________________________________



I know this question was not addressed to me, but I would like to chip in. I want the whipsawing to stop between the two groups. As soon as somebody moves and takes a small cut, or gives the company an extra day off, or relieves the duty rig for cd's etc., a year will go by and another rfp goes up for bid. How do you think most of the Comair group will act the second time around after they have seen no movement and ASA goes out and hires 400 pilots w/ 350 upgrades? There is no limit on who can do flying under the DAL code, in order to protect future flying we would have to pay for it, I think most of my pilot group understands that. As a combined carrier CMR and ASA would have equal work rules and pay and we could negotiate or decline to negotiate as one for future growth and not have to worry about what carrot is being dangled to the other wholly owned. I for one as well as my classmate jetflyer have a lot of personal gain from a merger, we also have some personal loss from a merger. We have approx 400 people below us, putting us around top 78%, after a merger we would have approximatly 450 people below us and be about top 87%.
However, some things are bigger than any one individual and their personal gain/loss from a possible merger. The pilot group as a whole is the most important thing and protecting future flying and our contract. All I hear on our alpa board is I,me I, III,I. People, please keep in mind some things are bigger than just you. Let's hear the details and make an informed decision based on what our mec's and company presents to us. Again, this is not targeted at any one person and I have not seen any kind of example of that kind of behavior on this board, I think you know who I am talking about.
I am pleased that our MEC's are working together regardless of any potential outcome from this proposal.



Quote
____________________________________________________
""Delta MEC Chairman can support this because it costs him or his pilots absolutely nothing and he might even gain something from the gesture. Otherwise you can bet your bottom dollar he wouldn't give you the time of day. Do not overlook the fact that the current DMEC Chair is the former Chairman of the DNC. You're not dealing with a babe in the woods. This is the same guy that negotiated away your rights to more 70-seaters and limited your flying in 50-seaters. You think he suddenly loves us? Nonsense! He has seen an opportunity to further the interests of the Delta pilots, at no cost or risk, and he took it. I would do the same if I were in his shoes.""
____________________________________________________



The exact same situation but opposite actions of our MEC's stance on hiring DAL pilots. Nothing to lose, to just say yes, we would like to have some of their furloughs fly with us. Company makes the ultimate decision anyway, and what are we talking about a dozen pilots or so. That was flat out wrong, and I am embarrassed about how that was handled, and I don't think I represent the minority of our pilots viewpoints on that. IMO that this situation can be handled better.

 

[Cash]

yes

 

[shamrock]

How do you think most of the Comair group will act the second time around after they have seen no movement and ASA goes out and hires 400 pilots w/ 350 upgrades?


Hopefully the same way the ASA group has this past year. With the Brakillya's retirement and no new hiring in a year many of us have been stagnant or have moved down on aircraft seniority while (I believe) Comair has expanded.

Personally, I'm not crazy about seeing Comair all over ATL, because I want it to be ASA. That being said, I'd rather it be Comair than a contract carrier. I would like to think that this would be view of the Comair group if the tables were turned.

I don't mean to take this out of context, but the statement kind of jumped out at me.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

This Comair pilot 100% concurs, shamrock. And with our ASA brethren deep into the negotiations process, I will not be management's instrument of intimidation.

ASA has had only limited access to Terminal C in DVG over the years, I sure hope you have always been made to feel welcome.

 

[DDpaysoff]

I knew when I was typing that sentence, that somebody would come back on that. If it is any consolation after a merger it wouldn't matter where you were for 2003. My point was the whipsaw game would be played again and again every year. I think we have already demonstrated that these two groups will not sell each other out.

 

[WWEfan]

I agree that our 2 pilot groups will not sell each other out. I give a tremendous amount of credit to our 2 MEC's for their joint efforts to end the whipsaw. Thanks to both MEC's for all you do.

 

[surplus1]

I know this question was not addressed to me, but I would like to chip in.

Thanks for your post. Your points are well made, very welcome (by me) and I think I understand them. Here are some counterpoints for your consideration.

I want the whipsawing to stop between the two groups.

I would like to stop whipsawing as well. However, the real "whipsawing" is not between ASA and CMR. It is between ASA/CMR and the subcontractors. If there were no subcontractors there would be no "RFP". A merger between ASA and CMR will NOT stop the whipsawing. That is the flaw in the formula.

ASA and CMR have supported each other for a long time. We can and should continue to do so without "buying" a merger that will be of little benefit to either of our groups. The savings that Delta, Inc. could realize from such a merger can be attained at the stroke of a pen without our participation.

If Comair doesn't sellout ASA, and if ASA doesn't sellout Comair, whipsawing between us is minimal to nonexistant. Disparity between the ASA & CMR contracts is already minimal. ASA is negotiating now. Without absolute support from Comair, the ONLY thing that prevents ASA from achieving parity with the CMR PWA is not whipsaw between the two, it is whipsaw between "us" and the subcontractors. I say again, a merger will do nothing to prevent that.

I am not opposed per se to the idea of a merger between ASA & CMR. However, if such a merger does not phase out the subcontracting scenario, by obtaining the written guarantee of Delta, Inc., it will in reality be nothing more than a feel good gesture. The whipsaw will continue or intensify. I see no reason why ASA or Comair pilots should "buy" something that we already have for free, merely by sticking together.

If the Company (Delta) wants us to "buy" something, then it must offer something of value in exchange for our money. Merging with ASA and leaving everything else the same, is "NO SALE" in my book.

As soon as somebody moves and takes a small cut, or gives the company an extra day off, or relieves the duty rig for cd's etc., a year will go by and another rfp goes up for bid.

You seem to be making my point. That is exactly what will happen if either CMR or ASA make concession merely to merge with each other. The flying will go to the lowest bidder, i.e., CHQ, SKYW or some "new guy" on the block. Merger will not prevent that.

By coordinated bargaining in consort, ASA & CMR can avoid so-called RFP's between the two companies. The threat we need to fight is external. There are very effective ways for ASA/CMR to work together that do not require a merger of the groups. This can be done internally. Spending negotiating capital on a merger of the corporations, while leaving the external threat in place is, to put it bluntly, a waste of capital.

How do you think most of the Comair group will act the second time around after they have seen no movement and ASA goes out and hires 400 pilots w/ 350 upgrades?

That statement really bothers me. I hope you don't mean what it sounds like you said. Comair has expanded more than ASA in recent times and the ASA pilots have continued to support us. I would certainly expect that Comair pilots would continue to support ASA if it should go the other way.

In its history to date, the Comair pilot group has never undercut any other pilot group for gain. Your statement implies that we might in the future. I have to tell you that if that is the thinking of those that have joined us in the last 3 years, I would be extremely disappointed. It would make us very different from what we have been and leave nothing worth fighting for. JMO.

There is no limit on who can do flying under the DAL code, in order to protect future flying we would have to pay for it, I think most of my pilot group understands that.

Since I think you and I belong to the same pilot group I'm not so sure that I agree with what you say "most" of us understand. What I think "most of the pilot group" understands or should understand is that you should pay nothing for anything that you are not guaranteed you will get. If the only thing that we get for what we "pay" is a merger with ASA, we will have won the battle and lost the war.

As a combined carrier CMR and ASA would have equal work rules and pay and we could negotiate or decline to negotiate as one for future growth and not have to worry about what carrot is being dangled to the other wholly owned.

Sorry, but I can't agree with that. The Company (Delta) isn't dangling carrots between CMR and ASA. It is pitting its subsidiaries against its subcontractors. That's very different.

First of all CMR and ASA can achieve equal work rules and pay without a merger. We can negotiate or decline to negotiate, in unity, without a merger. The concept of "negotiating for growth" is a fallacy and should not be adopted. Growth will be determined by market forces and not by concessions in our compensation packages. In my opinion we should negotiate to protect the jobs that we already have, not the potential jobs that may or may not come in the future. We can only protect our current jobs by controlling who does the flying in the types of equipment that we operate now or in the future, i.e., the RJs. If we achieve that, "growth" will come when market forces warrant it. The idea that you can create growth by working for inferior compensation is a management ploy that should be avoided like the plague that it is by all pilot groups. It is extremely unfortunate that some "regional" pilot groups don't seem to recognize this. I certainly hope that CMR and ASA will not join them.

You don't see any of the mega airline groups "negotiating for growth" and especially not making concessions for promised growth. That is patently foolish. They negotiate for the security of what they have and the retention or improvement of their compensation packages. They make concessions to save what they have, i.e., jobs, not for growth. In that respect we would do well to emulate them and not follow the uninitiated regional groups that are willing to buy "pie in the sky".

I am pleased that our MEC's are working together regardless of any potential outcome from this proposal.

I am also pleased that the ASA and CMR MEC's continue to work together as they have for many years. I see no reason why that should change nor do I see any danger that it will. We do not have to buy our loyalty to and support for each other by giving any part of our compensation to the Company. The Company cannot put a wedge between ASA and CMR unless WE choose to let them. If we are dumb enough to do that, then we deserve whatever we get.

The exact same situation but opposite actions of our MEC's stance on hiring DAL pilots. Nothing to lose, to just say yes, we would like to have some of their furloughs fly with us. Company makes the ultimate decision anyway, and what are we talking about a dozen pilots or so. That was flat out wrong, and I am embarrassed about how that was handled, and I don't think I represent the minority of our pilots viewpoints on that. IMO that this situation can be handled better.

Well, I don't know whether you are in the majority or the minority. What I do know is that you and I do not agree on that issue. Since it is a separate issue I won't debate it here. Suffice to say I disagree with your position and fully support the decision of our MEC.

Thanks again for your comments.

 

[PositiveRate]

Surplus,

As usual, you make excellent and well-reasoned points. It would be wise for the rest of our Comair brothers and sisters to listen to your views.

The merger i'd like to see would be DAL/CMR/ASA and the elimination of the contract carriers. CMR/ASA DOH and then staple to DAL with appropriate fences and furlough protection as well as job opportunities for DAL furloughees. All delta flying would be done by this threesome. Anything else is just a waste of time and money.

I guess we'll know how this is going to play out when they announce the recipient(s) of the next round of aircraft in a few weeks.

Regardless, and I'm sure i speak for many, I will not vote to give up a dam*ed cent to do a job I'm already underpaid for...i don't care what the offer is. We're trained, educated and expected to act/perform as a professionals...but they try to railroad us into thinking we don't deserve to be paid as such. I don't think so!

 

[TanJMcAdams]

Take it from someone who has been there (AE). Any contract longer than 4 years is a waste of bargaining power. I already left eagle for this very reason. Don't do it.

James