Are You An Asa Pilot Or A Ramp Instructor?

[Captain X]

Of course SWA and Frontier have both done "A Day In My Shoes" type programs and have a far better "teamwork" attitude than a lot of othe airlines out there.

Personally, I think pilots should have to work a day or two on the ramp, a day or two in the cabin, and a day or two doing Customer Service things to see what else happens first hand. I think that those groups should get involved or (to the extent possible) or observe duties that other co-workers have to do (while not having to do their own duties) to learn the "other sides."

Maybe, just maybe, if we could get the elitist "I'm flight crew. I'm better and more important than you" chip off our shoulders and realize that we ARE NOT the glue that holds the fabric together, we might start getting somewhere.

The other day, the skipper and I had all our stuff done. The inflight crew was all buckled up in the back, the tug driver and the bag guys were all done. Ya' know what? We couldn't go anywhere. Why? Because the jetway was frozen (it was -18°) and wouldn't go in gear. Even if it wasn't faulty, we still would have NEEDED that jetway driver in order to make the operation run. In fact, we NEEDED the facilities mechanics who came and fixed the jetway in order to make the operation run.

 

[ekuflyer]

Of course SWA and Frontier have both done "A Day In My Shoes" type programs and have a far better "teamwork" attitude than a lot of othe airlines out there.

Personally, I think pilots should have to work a day or two on the ramp, a day or two in the cabin, and a day or two doing Customer Service things to see what else happens first hand. I think that those groups should get involved or (to the extent possible) or observe duties that other co-workers have to do (while not having to do their own duties) to learn the "other sides."

Maybe, just maybe, if we could get the elitist "I'm flight crew. I'm better and more important than you" chip off our shoulders and realize that we ARE NOT the glue that holds the fabric together, we might start getting somewhere.

The other day, the skipper and I had all our stuff done. The inflight crew was all buckled up in the back, the tug driver and the bag guys were all done. Ya' know what? We couldn't go anywhere. Why? Because the jetway was frozen (it was -18°) and wouldn't go in gear. Even if it wasn't faulty, we still would have NEEDED that jetway driver in order to make the operation run. In fact, we NEEDED the facilities mechanics who came and fixed the jetway in order to make the operation run.

Well said

 

[SEVEN]

Won't ever happen.

 

[ekuflyer]

Won't ever happen.

probably not, but its worth a try. It might take just cleaning house down there to get years of piss poor management out and the corporate culture changed.

 

[WalterSobchak]

If the pilots of ASA are going to all have this attitude about the whole thing, then they just need to scratch the whole thing now. Either that, or the ASA pilots just need to get together and collectively deny every single one of these jumpseaters "in the interest of safety".

Listen, I was a ramp rat once...many of you probably were. And while there are some real pieces of crap on the ATL ramp and everywhere else...there are also some rampers that are genuinely interested in how others do their job and how the way the ramper does his job affects the pilot and vice versa. In theory, this isn't necessarily a bad idea...just bad timing and likely not very well thought out. Maybe a sim ride would make better sense.

I'll never forget my first jumpseat ride as a dispatcher. I got grilled by a fairly senior captain about how we calculated fuel load, fuel policies, and the such. He didn't like or agree with anything we did. Hell, what he (a guy 20+ years with company) thought dispatch was all about was way off.

After a few minutes of tension (he originally wasn't a huge fan of having a dispatcher in his jumpseat on the first early morning leg), I politely answered his questions and he answered all of mine. To make a long story short, we both came away with a renewed mutual respect for what the other does and since then, anytime a situation has arisen that we needed to put our heads together, his once condescending tone and "going against anything dispatch says just because it's coming from dispatch" attitude are gone...and I think that allows us to run a much smoother, much safer operation.

We can learn alot from each other...from the captain down to the lowly ramper. Does your management suck? Yeah, pretty much. But, maybe you should give this a shot before you tear it down as another tactic by "The Man" to hold you down.

 

[PalmettoPilot]

Let em ride. Break the plane at the outstation, take em to the hotel with you, show them how to heat up the can of Campbell's with the coffee pot and then how to wash their froot of the looms in the sink. Then make sure they are on the van with you at 0415 to start a 5 leg day blocked at 7:58 with a 4 hour sit in the middle.

 

[av8tor4239]

Once again...

To all of you that think this is a good kum by yah session... ANSWER THIS

Why can the ramp staff not learn this stuff in the simulator and classroom...?and why do they need to know how the FMS works?

 

[Muff-N-Man]

Can I sit on your lap?

I sure hope the ASA FA's raise holy hell about this one. If these jokers can ride on the jumpseat without any previous knowledge of cockpit procedures, give me a good reason a FA can't ride on it as well. They should be given access to the JS to commute.

 

[homerjdispatch]

Once again...

To all of you that think this is a good kum by yah session... ANSWER THIS

Why can the ramp staff not learn this stuff in the simulator and classroom...?and why do they need to know how the FMS works?

Oh come on!, If MAMAGMENT had put this out with the sim instead of actual, you would bi$&%CH about that too!....

NOTHING THAT ASA DOES WILL EVER BE LOOKED AT IN A GOOD LIGHT BY ASA PILOTS...They (managment) have destroyed your trust. If they gave you $1,000,000 youd complain that you had to pay the taxes on it!

 

[John Pennekamp]

If the pilots of ASA are going to all have this attitude about the whole thing, then they just need to scratch the whole thing now. Either that, or the ASA pilots just need to get together and collectively deny every single one of these jumpseaters "in the interest of safety".

Listen, I was a ramp rat once...many of you probably were. And while there are some real pieces of crap on the ATL ramp and everywhere else...there are also some rampers that are genuinely interested in how others do their job and how the way the ramper does his job affects the pilot and vice versa. In theory, this isn't necessarily a bad idea...just bad timing and likely not very well thought out. Maybe a sim ride would make better sense.

I'll never forget my first jumpseat ride as a dispatcher. I got grilled by a fairly senior captain about how we calculated fuel load, fuel policies, and the such. He didn't like or agree with anything we did. Hell, what he (a guy 20+ years with company) thought dispatch was all about was way off.

After a few minutes of tension (he originally wasn't a huge fan of having a dispatcher in his jumpseat on the first early morning leg), I politely answered his questions and he answered all of mine. To make a long story short, we both came away with a renewed mutual respect for what the other does and since then, anytime a situation has arisen that we needed to put our heads together, his once condescending tone and "going against anything dispatch says just because it's coming from dispatch" attitude are gone...and I think that allows us to run a much smoother, much safer operation.

We can learn alot from each other...from the captain down to the lowly ramper. Does your management suck? Yeah, pretty much. But, maybe you should give this a shot before you tear it down as another tactic by "The Man" to hold you down.

Again, to be clear, we're talking about Atlanta ACS (Airport Customer Service) managers jumpseating, not rampers and dispatchers. That means gate supervisors, customer service managers (red coats) and ramp zone leaders.

These are the exact people who already second guess, or even disregard every decision we as captains make on the ground. Having them looking over our shoulders, and giving us the Spanish Inquisition on the jumpseat, will only reaffirm their perception of power over us and further undermine the captain's authority, because these already know-it-all individuals will feel further empowered to overrule our decisions on boarding, cargo loading, paperwork, and passenger issues.

If you don't work here, then you don't understand the "Atlantitude".

 

[John Pennekamp]

NOTHING THAT ASA DOES WILL EVER BE LOOKED AT IN A GOOD LIGHT BY ASA PILOTS...They (managment) have destroyed your trust.

Bingo! We have a winner!

ASA destroyed our trust a long time ago, and has done nothing to earn it back. Until they do (by treating us like valued employees, not a labor commodity) they will continue to see us undermine their every move and bitch about everything we see, and move on as fast as we can!

And when I say "treat us like valued employees" it means more than lip service and another B.S. vision statement or asinine kumbaya program. It means settle our contract, compensate us according the the revenue (profits) we generate for the company, and abide by the contract they signed!

 

[ampropilot2b]

Given a good briefing (and only when there is plenty of time to do a very thorough briefing), a non-pilot jumpseater is really no greater danger than many of the pilots I've had on my jumpseat. Sure, there are some that might be a distraction, but we manage distractions constantly. How about the very loud "Selcal" message we always get immediately after takeoff? No one can tell me they haven't missed radio calls because the jumpseater (who doesn't have a headset on) was talking too loud. The danger in driving a car or bus is generally much more rapid and difficult to recover from (albeit less complex). In an airplane, the only time you don't have time to deal with a situation slowly and mythodically is during takeoff and landing (of course there are exceptions) As for the jumpseater being a distraction, require a seat be open in back in case you need the jumpseater to leave for some reason (sick, emergency, distration, etc.)

Anything that can be done to improve communication, understanding, cooperation etc, between each work-group is a good thing for the organization. As an intern many years ago at a different company, I worked on the ramp for a week. That experience changed the way I make decisions when dealing with ramp and has made me a more well rounded, understanding, flexible, pilot. I recommend every pilot try dumping the lav a few times Of course that would be way below the average pilot's ego.

How many of you were flight instructors carrying people who had never been in an airplane with little more than a short briefing. And you let them sit AT THE CONTROLS? I know, this is a 121 operation. But we are experts at managing the cockpit. It is our job. We can make it work if we feel it is a value to us. This can be a great program if properly implemented. I don't work at ASA, and I don't know if it will me managed properly...but I don't buy the argument that it can't be done safely or that it can't be a value to the organization. Just my opinion...it is the captains jumpseat and his/her final decision. As for me and my jumpseat...I would make it work, but on my terms. Period.

 

[Snapperhead]

show them how to heat up the can of Campbell's with the coffee pot and then how to wash their froot of the looms in the sink

That's hilarious dude. By the way, she's back on the line now.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Again, to be clear, we're talking about Atlanta ACS (Airport Customer Service) managers jumpseating, not rampers and dispatchers. That means gate supervisors, customer service managers (red coats) and ramp zone leaders.

These are the exact people who already second guess, or even disregard every decision we as captains make on the ground. Having them looking over our shoulders, and giving us the Spanish Inquisition on the jumpseat, will only reaffirm their perception of power over us and further undermine the captain's authority, because these already know-it-all individuals will feel further empowered to overrule our decisions on boarding, cargo loading, paperwork, and passenger issues.

If you don't work here, then you don't understand the "Atlantitude".

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. I think this might make them understand the thought process behind the captain's decisions. Again, I'm not saying this is a great idea by any means...but if it will shut them up and make them respect your decisions as a captain...maybe it's worth a shot.

And I understand the Atlantatude...anyone who non-revs though ATL any day of the week understands Atlantatude. I don't know how you guys put up with that crap on a daily basis.

 

[Puck Mugger]

That's hilarious dude. By the way, she's back on the line now.

I don't think that her's would fit in the sink. The tub perhaps...

http://www.greatbigstuff.com/panties.html

 

[John Pennekamp]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. I think this might make them understand the thought process behind the captain's decisions. Again, I'm not saying this is a great idea by any means...but if it will shut them up and make them respect your decisions as a captain...maybe it's worth a shot.

And I understand the Atlantatude...anyone who non-revs though ATL any day of the week understands Atlantatude. I don't know how you guys put up with that crap on a daily basis.

I appreciate your respect, but as I said, y'all just don't get it unless you work for ASA. All this will do is further arm the ACS managers to second guess more of our decisions. They will never shut up and they will never respect our decisions. They honestly believe they're above us. Despite their title and position, most of them are there through social promotion, not hard work and education. As a general rule, their ignorance is only matched by their ineptitude. They cover this ineptitude with attutude unleashed on anyone who dares question them. That's Atlanta. That's why ASA will never succeed until they take Boyd's advice and fire hose this place.

More B.S. feel good campaigns like the one we're discussing are just window dressing for the real problem at ASA. Ignorant people in positions of power because of who they are and who they know, not what they know and what they can do.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I don't think that her's would fit in the sink. The tub perhaps...

That's wrong on so many levels... but funny as hell. Glad she's back on the line where she belongs.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

ANSWER THIS

Why can the ramp staff not learn this stuff in the simulator and classroom...?and why do they need to know how the FMS works?

I can't believe this post made it 4 pages but, to answer your question. We are not training these people how to fly an RJ. We are simply showing them first hand some of the problems we have w/ gate/ramp operations everyday out on the line in real time.

If you give this person a thorough brief prior to the flight then you should have no problem w/ sterile cockpit. How many times have you had a fellow pilot js and talk your ear off while on approach? And by the way, please explain what sterile cockpit is to this person and don't just say "below 10,000 feet is sterile cockpit."

Relax, Be Professional, Fly the Contract and Move On

 

[John Pennekamp]

I can't believe this post made it 4 pages but, to answer your question. We are not training these people how to fly an RJ. We are simply showing them first hand some of the problems we have w/ gate/ramp operations everyday out on the line in real time.

If you give this person a thorough brief prior to the flight then you should have no problem w/ sterile cockpit. How many times have you had a fellow pilot js and talk your ear off while on approach? And by the way, please explain what sterile cockpit is to this person and don't just say "below 10,000 feet is sterile cockpit."

Relax, Be Professional, Fly the Contract and Move On

Can I ask you something? Why do you always take management's side and lecture your fellow pilots? What are your credentials to back up your opinion? Last I heard, you are an FO with less than 5 years experience. What makes your pro-management opinion so valid, junior?

 

[ohplease!]

Can I ask you something? Why do you always take management's side and lecture your fellow pilots? What are your credentials to back up your opinion? Last I heard, you are an FO with less than 5 years experience. What makes your pro-management opinion so valid, junior?

Not that I even care about this issue but,,,,lets slip the shoe on the other foot for a second....What makes you always take the anti-management stance and lecture your fellow pilots? What are your credentials? and last I heard, you don't have to be an ASA lifer to make an OPINION valid.....its just his opinion. You're welcome to yours.