Are You An Asa Pilot Or A Ramp Instructor?

[doug_or]

An excellent question has been asked.

Why can't they do these observations while on a simulator observer seat during recurrent flight training, a LOFT, or upgrade flight training.

On the other hand, I have no problem with the dispatchers riding my jumpseat. I usually learn as much from them as they do from me.

The most important stuff they could learn would be watching your interactions with the actual ramp- seeing how the flight gets delayed because they're playing wand toss instead of bringing you the paperwork, etc. There's not really much point in having them watch you do V1 cuts.

 

[WalterSobchak]

The most important stuff they could learn would be watching your interactions with the actual ramp- seeing how the flight gets delayed because they're playing wand toss instead of bringing you the paperwork, etc. There's not really much point in having them watch you do V1 cuts.

Now you just hold on one second here...wand toss is an important part of any ramprat's day.

You people who've never worked the ramp make me sick.

 

[asa rat]

Doubtful that the FAA has approved this program but its CERTAIN the DHS hasn't.... so we could have a security risk sitting on the jumpseat?

Granted it's not likely but it HAS happened. I wonder if an FFDO would appreciate wondering who is sitting behind him or her?

 

[Speedtape]

If the pilots of ASA are going to all have this attitude about the whole thing, then they just need to scratch the whole thing now. Either that, or the ASA pilots just need to get together and collectively deny every single one of these jumpseaters "in the interest of safety".

Listen, I was a ramp rat once...many of you probably were. And while there are some real pieces of crap on the ATL ramp and everywhere else...there are also some rampers that are genuinely interested in how others do their job and how the way the ramper does his job affects the pilot and vice versa. In theory, this isn't necessarily a bad idea...just bad timing and likely not very well thought out. Maybe a sim ride would make better sense.

I'll never forget my first jumpseat ride as a dispatcher. I got grilled by a fairly senior captain about how we calculated fuel load, fuel policies, and the such. He didn't like or agree with anything we did. Hell, what he (a guy 20+ years with company) thought dispatch was all about was way off.

After a few minutes of tension (he originally wasn't a huge fan of having a dispatcher in his jumpseat on the first early morning leg), I politely answered his questions and he answered all of mine. To make a long story short, we both came away with a renewed mutual respect for what the other does and since then, anytime a situation has arisen that we needed to put our heads together, his once condescending tone and "going against anything dispatch says just because it's coming from dispatch" attitude are gone...and I think that allows us to run a much smoother, much safer operation.

We can learn alot from each other...from the captain down to the lowly ramper. Does your management suck? Yeah, pretty much. But, maybe you should give this a shot before you tear it down as another tactic by "The Man" to hold you down.

1. Spend the money and give them proper training, and retraining, and they could do the job for which they were hired. Instead of the flight deck, they could stand in the Concourse window, at any given time, and learn everything they needed to know about the operation.

2. Part of the problem is that there is no supervision on the ramp. Maybe they should be where the rubber meets the road!

3. If they want to sit in the cockpit or are interested in what we do, let them spend the 70 to 100 G's that the rest of us spent and get the certificates and ratings that qualify them to sit up there.

4. In regard to your dispatch story, we were better off when we were 135 and controlled all those things ourself. Then you didn't have to worry about calling your dispatcher; either not getting an answer at all, or someone other than your dispatcher answering the phone to inform you the dispatcher has stepped away from the desk! We can do it better--it's our tush sitting in the seat!

5. We don't need social experiments. We need competent people hired that have work ethic, pride and a desire to do the job. Did I mention that they needed proper training and recurrent training?

6. We need a management that "Gets It!"

7. The industry analyst Boyd was right--1st, start by firehosing the 7th and 8th floor and getting rid of the reasons for the "Performance Minus" realities that we face! That's why we can make the claim, "We're Number 19!" Someone needs to sell the T-shirt!

8. In the world of DOT performance reporting, "ONE" is not the loneliest number, it's number "19!"

 

[shamrock]

That's why we can make the claim, "We're Number 19!" Someone needs to sell the T-shirt!

It was really great to see ASA mentioned by name in USA Today as the worst airline for on-time performance. Brian should be really proud, we certainly couldn't do it without his stellar leadership!

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Of course SWA and Frontier have both done "A Day In My Shoes" type programs and have a far better "teamwork" attitude than a lot of othe airlines out there.

Personally, I think pilots should have to work a day or two on the ramp, a day or two in the cabin, and a day or two doing Customer Service things to see what else happens first hand. I think that those groups should get involved or (to the extent possible) or observe duties that other co-workers have to do (while not having to do their own duties) to learn the "other sides."

Maybe, just maybe, if we could get the elitist "I'm flight crew. I'm better and more important than you" chip off our shoulders and realize that we ARE NOT the glue that holds the fabric together, we might start getting somewhere.

The other day, the skipper and I had all our stuff done. The inflight crew was all buckled up in the back, the tug driver and the bag guys were all done. Ya' know what? We couldn't go anywhere. Why? Because the jetway was frozen (it was -18°) and wouldn't go in gear. Even if it wasn't faulty, we still would have NEEDED that jetway driver in order to make the operation run. In fact, we NEEDED the facilities mechanics who came and fixed the jetway in order to make the operation run.

Well said bro.

 

[WalterSobchak]

4. In regard to your dispatch story, we were better off when we were 135 and controlled all those things ourself. Then you didn't have to worry about calling your dispatcher; either not getting an answer at all, or someone other than your dispatcher answering the phone to inform you the dispatcher has stepped away from the desk! We can do it better--it's our tush sitting in the seat!

Exactly the attitude that will KEEP ASA at "Number 19". I love the God complex some of you guys have...

(Note I said SOME...not all.)

 

[Speedtape]

Of course SWA and Frontier have both done "A Day In My Shoes" type programs and have a far better "teamwork" attitude than a lot of othe airlines out there.

Personally, I think pilots should have to work a day or two on the ramp, a day or two in the cabin, and a day or two doing Customer Service things to see what else happens first hand. I think that those groups should get involved or (to the extent possible) or observe duties that other co-workers have to do (while not having to do their own duties) to learn the "other sides."

Maybe, just maybe, if we could get the elitist "I'm flight crew. I'm better and more important than you" chip off our shoulders and realize that we ARE NOT the glue that holds the fabric together, we might start getting somewhere.

The other day, the skipper and I had all our stuff done. The inflight crew was all buckled up in the back, the tug driver and the bag guys were all done. Ya' know what? We couldn't go anywhere. Why? Because the jetway was frozen (it was -18°) and wouldn't go in gear. Even if it wasn't faulty, we still would have NEEDED that jetway driver in order to make the operation run. In fact, we NEEDED the facilities mechanics who came and fixed the jetway in order to make the operation run.

Replies to:

Paragraph 1. Team work starts with the Coach or Leadership Team. Southwest and Frontier have a Leadership Team with a proven record. That's why, when they turn and say "Charge!", their people are already half way up the hill!

Paragraph 2. Your opinion has some merit but would not solve the root problem. However, it certainly would be beneficial to those whose first real job was sitting in a flight deck, and we have plenty of those. Most pilots simply want the support and resources to do our jobs safely and properly. And yes, that means to accomplish that goal, involves depending on others to provide those resources and support.

Paragraph 3. Most people I fly with don't have a chip on their shoulder or possess an elitist attitude. That must be another airline. But, we do expect that the same standards that we have to conform to in performing our job, should be applied to the other work groups.

Paragraph 4. You left out the ATC controllers who have to give you a clearance and maintain your separation. You left out the passengers who buy the tickets, that make it possible for us to live the dream. You left out our Mommas who brought us into this world and raised us to be the fine people that we are today. You left out the Pappas who had a major part in us getting here too, and then providing for us. It goes on and on! You could even include the airport employee who cuts the grass around the taxi way signs and the one who changes the bulbs in the burned out lights along the runway. Pilots as well as Pilot haters, do not live by bread alone!

 

[WalterSobchak]

Paragraph 3. Most people I fly with don't have a chip on their shoulder or possess an elitist attitude.

Sadly, most people that fly with you apparently can't say the same.

 

[Speedtape]

Exactly the attitude that will KEEP ASA at "Number 19". I love the God complex some of you guys have...

(Note I said SOME...not all.)

First, I can assure you a few things! No pilot wants to be anything other than #1 at anything he/she does! At least that's my observation. We aren't perfect, but we will strive for perfection, even when conditions are not ideal! You can call that elitist or anything you want, but that is the normal profile of most pilots I know! There are many things I cannot control--being number 19 is one of them! Give us a Management team that gives us the tools and processes to do our jobs better, and I can guarantee we will not be 19!

Maybe you should close out the internet on your ASD monitor and get back to flight following!

 

[Speedtape]

Sadly, most people that fly with you apparently can't say the same.

You wouldn't know!

 

[ASARJMan]

Some would argue that "back on line" is the last place she belongs.

I'll second that. Hopefully a strong FO flys with her.

 

[ASARJMan]

1. Spend the money and give them proper training, and retraining, and they could do the job for which they were hired. Instead of the flight deck, they could stand in the Concourse window, at any given time, and learn everything they needed to know about the operation.
"

Send them over to AirTran or DAL to observe. A world of difference. Better yet, let our folks work Freedom, CMR and SKYW and give us those Delta rampers!

Release Us Mr MediatorMan!

 

[John Pennekamp]

hmm. 8 yrs. ASA, 4.5 yrs. NWA, 3 yrs. Valujet/Airtran, 2 yrs. corp., 11 yrs. Coca-Cola...been there, done all that you're not as awesome as you think.

You went from Coke to corporate to Valujet to NWA to ASA? Your resume seems to be going BACKWARDS, SPORT! :laugh:

I heard there's a story about you on the bathroom wall. Something about you and a male FA on an overnight...

 

[John Pennekamp]

Some would argue that "back on line" is the last place she belongs.

True, true. I hope she has good FOs...