Appears to be a citation down in carlsbad, ca

[ultrarunner]

Anyone know who the plane was registered to?

Goship Air LLC out of Idaho.

 

[Ill Mitch]

Unstabilized runways are the worst, they're down right jiggy.

That describes CRQ's runway to a tee.

 

[Annie]

I did a quick Google search on pax Frank Jellinek. There is someone with his name, who looks like him, who liked to compete in pro/am race car competitions. I wonder if that has some relationship to the speed on approach?

 

[Guitar rocker]

I did a quick Google search on pax Frank Jellinek. There is someone with his name, who looks like him, who liked to compete in pro/am race car competitions. I wonder if that has some relationship to the speed on approach?

Annie, c'mon. This was in poor taste. Get real chk!

 

[avbug]

What??

If your doing over 200 kts at 300 feet you'd better be "leaving" the runway and not landing on it.

And to the others who made smart comments as well...I didn't say 200 knots was an appropriate speed at all. SoCal has been getting strong winds for a couple of days, and what I did say is that in windy or gusty conditions, extra speed isn't unwarranted.

We do not know his speed on approach, nor do we know more than four are dead, neither did I speculate further about the matter.

 

[urflyingme?!]

This will provide just another reason for those nuts down there to try and restrict that airport...

 

[Annie]

Guitar Rocker:

When did trying to understand the human factors involved in an aircraft trajedy, require one to "get real" (whatever that means)? Excuse me, but I happen to know, that many scientists consider the possibility of systemic relationships--be they human, or mechanical an essential factor in the equation.

 

[414Flyer]

When did trying to understand the human factors involved in an aircraft trajedy, require one to "get real" (whatever that means)? Excuse me, but I happen to know, that many scientists consider the possibility of systemic relationships--be they human, or mechanical an essential factor in the equation.

The possible occupation of race car driver for passenger might be a factor in the crews approach speed?????

Care to try and explain this one?

 

[FN FAL]

That describes CRQ's runway to a tee.

KILGORE: "It's hairy. Got some pretty heavy ordnance there. I lost a few recon ships there now and again. Is that goddang village Vin Drin Dop or Lop ? dang gook names all sound the same. Mike, do you know anything about that point at Vin Drin Dop ?"

MIKE: "That's a fantastic peak. "

KILGORE: "Peak ?"

MIKE: "About six feet. It got both the long right with left slide.
It's unbelieveable, it's just Tube City..."

KILGORE: " Well why the hell didn't you tell me that before ? There aren't any good peaks in this whole, shootty country. It's all goddang beach break."

MIKE: "It's really hairy in there,sir. That's where we lost McDonnel...they shot the hell out of us. That's...Charlie's point."

WILLARD: "Sir, we can go there tomorrow at dawn. There's always
a good off-shore breeze in the morning."

CHIEF: "We may not be able to get the boat in. The river may be too
shallow."

KILGORE: " We'll pick your boat up and put it down like a baby, right
where you want it. This is First of the Ninth, Air Cav,son- airmobile.
I can take that point and hold it as long as I like -- and you can
get anywhere you want up that river that suits you, young captain.
Hell, a six foot peak.

You take a gunship back to division -- Mike, take Lance with you -- let
him pick out a board, and bring me my Yater Spoon -- the eight six."

MIKE: "I don't know, sir -- it's -- it's --"

KILGORE: "What is it soldier?

MIKE: "It's pretty hairy in there - it's Charlie's point..."

KILGORE: "Charlie don't surf !"

:beer:

 

[falcon20driver]

The radar data from http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N86CE/tracklog shows them on a 7 mile final at 4100' MSL and 262 kts groundspeed, two reports for the same fix of a one mile final the first is 2300' MSL doing 277 kts over the ground and than 1200' MSL (900' AGL) doing 209 over the ground, and the next and last fix is at field elevation doing 227 kts over the ground a mile southwest of the field.

 

[cheyflyer]

Don't know how accurate flight aware is, but last track info showed 227kts at 300ft.

I think Flight Aware shows the speed as ground speed. This does not necessairly mean the Capt was flying a higher than target or ref speed. With the winds the way they have been lately, they could have been encountering a tailwind at 300 feet followed be a shear or lack of wind shortly after that. Could this have contributed to the crash.....who knows, but I'm sure the NTSB will determine this within the next few weeks/months.

I did a quick Google search on pax Frank Jellinek. There is someone with his name, who looks like him, who liked to compete in pro/am race car competitions. I wonder if that has some relationship to the speed on approach?

I would have to say not likely...but then again the NTSB will be the ones to determine this. If I had to speculate as to the contributing factors of this accident I would suggest fatigue....very early arrival which means an even earlier departure....how well was the crew rested?...what was the schedule the day before?...."legal rest" doesn't always mean quality rest.

May they all now rest in peace!

cf

 

[Guitar rocker]

Guitar Rocker:

When did trying to understand the human factors involved in an aircraft trajedy, require one to "get real" (whatever that means)? Excuse me, but I happen to know, that many scientists consider the possibility of systemic relationships--be they human, or mechanical an essential factor in the equation.

How can you even relate the speed at which a pro/am racer is accustomed to compared to the speed at which an aircraft is to be operated at??? Are you saying that scientifically it is probable that this CE-560 was operating at a speed commensurate with that of what a pro/am racer is used to just because????? What a poor comparison. The speed at which a motor vehicle and an aircraft are operated at are two totally different things. I CANT believe that anyone would have to explain this to you.

Last but not least, dont sit here and insinuate that this was pilot error until the facts are published by the NTSB. You werent there, so we dont want to hear your analysis and professional opinion about how the airplane and car speeds relate.

 

[con-pilot]

Good point cheyflyer.

 

[urflyingme?!]

I rode a bike last week. Does that mean I'm even MORE likely to crash an aircraft?

 

[Guitar rocker]

I rode a bike last week. Does that mean I'm even MORE likely to crash an aircraft?

Not to take your point here but is it OK to stall and crash the plane short of the runway because all your used to is 20 MPH on your bike??? I have never heard of anyone relating the speed of a car to an aircraft. If I got pulled over driving my nice new BMW doing 240MPH on the highway, would it be OK to tell the cop that I am used to flying my own jet at 450MPH and I am just not used to everyone going 65???????

 

[falcon20driver]

I think Flight Aware shows the speed as ground speed. This does not necessairly mean the Capt was flying a higher than target or ref speed. With the winds the way they have been lately, they could have been encountering a tailwind at 300 feet followed be a shear or lack of wind shortly after that. Could this have contributed to the crash.....who knows, but I'm sure the NTSB will determine this within the next few weeks/months.


cf

You're are correct about the speed, it's ground, but the 300' is MSL so that would be at field elevation not 300 AGL, anyone know if they circled to 6 or landed 24?

Edit: disregard, just read the article http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/northcounty/20060124-1205-bn24plane6.html

They skidded off 24, I wonder if they were going missed and didn't retract the speedbrake.

 

[501261]

The radar data from http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N86CE/tracklog
shows them over the outer marker for 24 at 2300' MLS doing 277 kts over the ground, than on a mile final for 24 at 1200' MSL (900' AGL) doing 209 over the ground, and the next and last fix is at field elevation doing 227 kts over the ground a mile southwest of the field. Anyone know which runway they went off the end of?

Ya I got a theory on why the up and down speed. The flap speed on a 560 is 200knots, so he pulled the nose up to slow to flap speed then brought it back down to try and salvage the landing.

 

[cessnapilot]

hello

KCRQ 241653Z AUTO 05003KT 10SM CLR 19/M07 A2997 RMK AO2 SLP147 T01941067
KCRQ 241553Z AUTO 08006KT 10SM CLR 14/M07 A2995 RMK AO2 SLP142 T01441072
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KCRQ 241453Z AUTO 06006KT 10SM CLR 14/M09 A2993 RMK AO2 SLP133 T01391094 53013 $[/FONT]
[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KCRQ 241353Z AUTO 08005KT 10SM CLR 10/M08 A2991 RMK AO2 SLP128 T01001078 $[/FONT]

It appears they landed on 24... so with the winds you posted it would have been a tailwind. It's about 350' per nm on the GS coming down. With only 4600' to land on... it's not a good setup!

 

[501261]

Was the Glideslop working?

One thing I'd like to know is if the Glide Slope had been fixed yet, when I went in there last Thursday (1/19) the G/S was OTS. Obviously now the entire ILS is OTS.

When I went in there last Thursday, SOCAL on 127.2 cleared me for the ILS 24, I didn't think much of it since I had just gotten the airport in sight (4000' Overcast, clear beneath), but the glideslope clearly was OTS (just as the NOTAM said).

Is there a historical NOTAM

 

[501261]

I wonder if they were going missed and didn't retract the speedbrake.

No Citations are smarter than that, there's an 80% switch in the throttles that automatically retracts the boards if you forget( i.e. throttle up, boards go down).