APA's Prez Throws Down on Management

[Mach8Forest]

Hey Mach8Forest,

If I'm such an idiot, I guess you have a slam dunk in court. Good luck with the judge and your attorneys. I hope they are not overcharging you.

AA767AV8TOR

We will fight on to right your wrong. The justice system is not perfect, hell look at OJ. In fact he would be a great spokesman for the APA. In case you missed it here it is again.
​

The posts by some of you arrogant APA/AA guys are incredible. You now want to talk about UNITY?You are the Bean Counters dream of Unionism. Ready, Willing, and Able SCABS at their finest. Oh you did not cross a picket line but you stole the jobs of a unionized pilot group that were not yours. This is worse than a SCAB in my book. Your group is not a union at all but just simply a special interest group that spreads miss information among its masses in order to justify its wrongs. Then its repeated like a parrot by some idiot. So 767AV8TOR can you answer this? When should a true union use corporate finances as a weapon to strip someone else of their careers to better their own? NEVER! Lucky for you that safety records or TWA’s past merger policy was not the vehicle of our seniority.
This merger reminded me of something I witnessed in 1989 pushing back in an L1011 at JFK bound for Lisbon. Seagulls on top of our Jetway attacked a pigeon as we were pushing back. The pigeon appeared to have been killed as it lay on its side bleeding as we were starting the engines. I asked the captain I was flying with what was that all about. He believed that the seagulls were sick of competing for food and decided collectively to kill this pigeon.
National Unity = APA should have taken pilots when they took TWA’s London Routes as United did with PA but they did not.
Career Expectations = Hello aa767av8tor are you aware that TWA at that time carried more people to London than AA did to the whole continent of Europe.
Reality = AA could not grow internally fast enough to compete so they had to purchase someone to be the biggest.
THE REASON.= A decade plus later and with the ego threat of not being the biggest Airline against United, AA went into action. But how could they do it cleanly and without Icahn getting into AA.
Setting the Stage= How did TWA go Bankrupt when it entered that winter with more cash than it had in 7 prior years? Every other Airline was making some money at the time and TWA although not on par had proportionally similar trends? Why did cash strapped TWA spend over 80 million pulling out of European city pairs and paying heavy employee severance fines and penalties? Wasn’t Cash Critical? DUH!
Berlin was conducting the Orchestra and directing the play long before the curtain opened.
WHY TWA? =Lets think about this for a moment with some reason. Here sits TWA, an East/ West flow airline with a big hub (STL) sandwiched between AA’s two Major East/ West flow hubs (DFW, ORD) and was hurting AA East/West yields. TWA also had over a hundred east coast landing slots (88 in NY) with facilities, Hangers, and gates on both coasts. Their reservation system was worth millions on the market. After the demise of Eastern and Pan Am, AA enjoyed virtually no competition on very high yield routes in the Caribbean. Here sits TWA again as they were developing and growing a SJU mini Hub. They became the only future hub threat in the Caribbean with over 60 flights per day and growing out of SJU. I knew when they delayed the start of our MIA – SJU flights something smelled badly. TWA also had Route authority’s beyond imagination for an expanding AA airline.
Our Past Merger = As far as the Ozark merger is concerned only one guy in any merger believes he did not get screwed and he is number one. The rest feel that even with a date of hire scenario with fences like the TWA/OZ merger that they somehow lost something. I have friends on both sides of the fence. I can tell you that when I was an engineer in NY on the L1011 some of my favorite Captains including the number one man on that equipment were Green (OZ).
The Future = Mergers with lopsided past hiring dates create additional problems among pilots and their ego’s of who should get what. AA and Reno Air is a good example as they were a young airline bought by an older seniority. The real test for the industry will be the AWA and USAIR outcomeor when the regionals start to merge.
We Could have had Unity. AA and TWA’s pilot seniority hiring dates and seats were super close as 1989 hires were checking out as captains at both carriers. There was no need for the slaughter of our livelihoods other than greed and insecurity. A 5+ year or more fence or the Tannen proposal would have sufficed. Before the AA purchase, TWA pilots had East and West coast domiciles. After the AA purchase Berlin shoved us all into STL so AA pilots could have all the International, Transcons + Caribbean. So AA767av8tor you can take your DFW HNLflt and shove it.
Past Precedent = Correct me if I am wrong but didn’t Nashville Eagle (APA) give bankrupt Air Virginia (ALPA) pilots date of hire with fences in an exact buyout scenario?
Unity ?????? = Look in the rear view mirror my AA friends and remember the words APA used during the slashing of our livelihoods and families well being. This industries fate is still unpredictable. There is no corporate crystal ball in this industry. You allowed radicals who applied ignorant self-serving beliefs for their own advantage to lead you. Now you want us to get over it and talk about Unity. You have damaged this occupation beyond repair. The APA should have led by example by doing the right thing. Sit back now and watch other carriers pilots and the regionals emulate you. These carriers’ bean counters will use their pilot’s greed as a weapon like AA did to keep this profession destabilized. True security and a National Union is only a dream with the likes of you. See you on the Picket line I hope.
Mach8Forest




​

 

[Hangin' On]

We will fight on to right your wrong. The justice system is not perfect, hell look at OJ. In fact he would be a great spokesman for the APA. In case you missed it here it is again.​

The posts by some of you arrogant APA/AA guys are incredible. You now want to talk about UNITY?You are the Bean Counters dream of Unionism. Ready, Willing, and Able SCABS at their finest. Oh you did not cross a picket line but you stole the jobs of a unionized pilot group that were not yours. This is worse than a SCAB in my book. Your group is not a union at all but just simply a special interest group that spreads miss information among its masses in order to justify its wrongs. Then its repeated like a parrot by some idiot. So 767AV8TOR can you answer this? When should a true union use corporate finances as a weapon to strip someone else of their careers to better their own? NEVER! Lucky for you that safety records or TWA’s past merger policy was not the vehicle of our seniority.

This merger reminded me of something I witnessed in 1989 pushing back in an L1011 at JFK bound for Lisbon. Seagulls on top of our Jetway attacked a pigeon as we were pushing back. The pigeon appeared to have been killed as it lay on its side bleeding as we were starting the engines. I asked the captain I was flying with what was that all about. He believed that the seagulls were sick of competing for food and decided​

collectively to kill this pigeon​

.​

National Unity = APA should have taken pilots when they took TWA’s London Routes as United did with PA but they did not.​

Career Expectations = Hello aa767av8tor are you aware that TWA at that time carried more people to London than AA did to the whole continent of Europe.

Reality = AA could not grow internally fast enough to compete so they had to purchase someone to be the biggest.
THE REASON.= A decade plus later and with the ego threat of not being the biggest Airline against United, AA went into action. But how could they do it cleanly and without Icahn getting into AA.
Setting the Stage= How did TWA go Bankrupt when it entered that winter with more cash than it had in 7 prior years? Every other Airline was making some money at the time and TWA although not on par had proportionally similar trends? Why did cash strapped TWA spend over 80 million pulling out of European city pairs and paying heavy employee severance fines and penalties? Wasn’t Cash Critical? DUH!
Berlin was conducting the Orchestra and directing the play long before the curtain opened.
WHY TWA? =Lets think about this for a moment with some reason. Here sits TWA, an East/ West flow airline with a big hub (STL) sandwiched between AA’s two Major East/ West flow hubs (DFW, ORD) and was hurting AA East/West yields. TWA also had over a hundred east coast landing slots (88 in NY) with facilities, Hangers, and gates on both coasts. Their reservation system was worth millions on the market. After the demise of Eastern and Pan Am, AA enjoyed virtually no competition on very high yield routes in the Caribbean. Here sits TWA again as they were developing and growing a SJU mini Hub. They became the only future hub threat in the Caribbean with over 60 flights per day and growing out of SJU. I knew when they delayed the start of our MIA – SJU flights something smelled badly. TWA also had Route authority’s beyond imagination for an expanding AA airline. ​

Our Past Merger = As far as the Ozark merger is concerned only one guy in any merger believes he did not get screwed and he is number one. The rest feel that even with a date of hire scenario with fences like the TWA/OZ merger that they somehow lost something. I have friends on both sides of the fence. I can tell you that when I was an engineer in NY on the L1011 some of my favorite Captains including the number one man on that equipment were Green (OZ).

The Future = Mergers with lopsided past hiring dates create additional problems among pilots and their ego’s of who should get what. AA and Reno Air is a good example as they were a young airline bought by an older seniority. The real test for the industry will be the AWA and USAIR outcomeor when the regionals start to merge.​

We Could have had Unity. AA and TWA’s pilot seniority hiring dates and seats were super close as 1989 hires were checking out as captains at both carriers. There was no need for the slaughter of our livelihoods other than greed and insecurity. A 5+ year or more fence or the Tannen proposal would have sufficed. Before the AA purchase, TWA pilots had East and West coast domiciles. After the AA purchase Berlin shoved us all into STL so AA pilots could have all the International, Transcons + Caribbean. So AA767av8tor you can take your DFW HNLflt and shove it.​

Past Precedent = Correct me if I am wrong but didn’t Nashville Eagle (APA) give bankrupt Air Virginia (ALPA) pilots date of hire with fences in an exact buyout scenario?

Unity ?????? = Look in the rear view mirror my AA friends and remember the words APA used during the slashing of our livelihoods and families well being. This industries fate is still unpredictable. There is no corporate crystal ball in this industry. You allowed radicals who applied ignorant self-serving beliefs for their own advantage to lead you. Now you want us to get over it and talk about Unity. You have damaged this occupation beyond repair. The APA should have led by example by doing the right thing. Sit back now and watch other carriers pilots and the regionals emulate you. These carriers’ bean counters will use their pilot’s greed as a weapon like AA did to keep this profession destabilized. True security and a National Union is only a dream with the likes of you. See you on the Picket line I hope.​

Mach8Forest
​

Why I'm engaging you, I will never know. But I wonder why you single out the AA pilot group when there is a lot of blame to go around. Sure, APA took care of its own and in the process screwed a lot of people. However, at the time their mandate was to represent the pilots of AA. ALPA was supposed to represent you--seems like you should be absolutely furious with them. Carty's ego started this whole mess and Icahn's greed fit in there nicely too.

How 'bout redirecting that anger? Most of us on this thread just want to pull this profession out of its tailspin and you want to fight the last war. It's OVER!! Get some therapy, liquid or otherwise, and move on!
​

 

[stlflyguy]

Why I'm engaging you, I will never know. But I wonder why you single out the AA pilot group when there is a lot of blame to go around. Sure, APA took care of its own and in the process screwed a lot of people. However, at the time their mandate was to represent the pilots of AA. ALPA was supposed to represent you--seems like you should be absolutely furious with them. Carty's ego started this whole mess and Icahn's greed fit in there nicely too.

How 'bout redirecting that anger? Most of us on this thread just want to pull this profession out of its tailspin and you want to fight the last war. It's OVER!! Get some therapy, liquid or otherwise, and move on!
[/left]

Hey, we are getting therapy....in Federal Court against ALPA. I'm sure the connections between the Unions and Company will all start to come out in the depositions.....and then we'll be back at it with APA and AMR. No worries.

Until then, I agree with everything Mach8 said.

stlflyguy

 

[stlflyguy]

No, I am a former Eagle guy who moved on and was just tossing some flame bait. However, I did enjoy flying with both Natives and Teeway's, except for all the pissn and moaning about each other. Get over it and move on before you all die a lonely pathetic death whining about how you were wronged. We all have been screwed to some degree along our career: fight your battle, take your lumps, and roll on.

P3,

I understand and hope that your new digs are treating you well. As I indicated before, when there are no more legal avenues to pursue I'll let it go.

Best wishes,

stlflyguy

 

[aa73]

Mach8Forest and STLFlyguy, here's the problem:

You are both absolutely right in your diagnoses (sp?) of what transcended. You have every right to be ticked off, and this native would not stand in your way. However, the fact that the lawsuit was thrown out by the judge is nothing more than "salt in the wounds" for your pilot group, and that fact alone will cause you guys to throw whatever hatred and insults you can conjure our way, for years to come - because that is all that's left of the ammunition. And that's human nature. Whether the judge was morally right or not is irrelevant - that's the good ol' judicial system of the USA, as we've seen in the past.

So in many ways, the hatred coming from some of your radicals is understandable, but in vain - because you are fighting a battle that in the end will hurt only yourselves. You've done exactly what I would've done in your shoes - sued the heck out of us - and when that avenue is expired, what more could I do? I don't have the kind of personality to spew hatred and insults just to satisfy some kind of "inner rage". But if that's the only way you can satifsy yourselves, have at it. I suspect that the main reason you revert to that kind of behavior is more to "stir up the troops" on this board than it is to vent. And that's understandable, given the fact that it didn't go your way, as I've said before.

So please understand that a lot of your rants and insults really just bounce off most of us, very much like temper tantrums from our kids, because we understand, as adults, that a lot of it really isn't your fault.

I wish all of you the very best, and hope that this doesn't end up ruining your lives any more than what already happened.

v/r,
73

 

[stlflyguy]

Mach8Forest and STLFlyguy, here's the problem:

You are both absolutely right in your diagnoses (sp?) of what transcended. You have every right to be ticked off, and this native would not stand in your way. However, the fact that the lawsuit was thrown out by the judge is nothing more than "salt in the wounds" for your pilot group, and that fact alone will cause you guys to throw whatever hatred and insults you can conjure our way, for years to come - because that is all that's left of the ammunition. And that's human nature. Whether the judge was morally right or not is irrelevant - that's the good ol' judicial system of the USA, as we've seen in the past.

So in many ways, the hatred coming from some of your radicals is understandable, but in vain - because you are fighting a battle that in the end will hurt only yourselves. You've done exactly what I would've done in your shoes - sued the heck out of us - and when that avenue is expired, what more could I do? I don't have the kind of personality to spew hatred and insults just to satisfy some kind of "inner rage". But if that's the only way you can satifsy yourselves, have at it. I suspect that the main reason you revert to that kind of behavior is more to "stir up the troops" on this board than it is to vent. And that's understandable, given the fact that it didn't go your way, as I've said before.

So please understand that a lot of your rants and insults really just bounce off most of us, very much like temper tantrums from our kids, because we understand, as adults, that a lot of it really isn't your fault.

I wish all of you the very best, and hope that this doesn't end up ruining your lives any more than what already happened.

v/r,
73

73,

Thank you for the more eloquent delivery about our "rants." Perhaps they are just that.

Realize that for us former TWA types that if the ALPA suit bears fruit we're not stopping there with it--there'll be two other targets shortly thereafter.

Again, thank you for what I believe is somewhat of an understanding of that "inner rage" you describe. Now we'll see how the cards play out...


stlflyguy

 

[Hangin' On]

Hey, we are getting therapy....in Federal Court against ALPA. I'm sure the connections between the Unions and Company will all start to come out in the depositions.....and then we'll be back at it with APA and AMR. No worries.

Until then, I agree with everything Mach8 said.

stlflyguy

stlflyguy,

I hope you do well against ALPA--they seem to be the appropriate target. They sure haven't done much for anyone else either (read UAL, DAL, Eagle, etc.). I don't know all the details of the negotiations--only rumors from both sides. Hopefully the truth will come out in the depositions and all will be settled for good. My question is will you let it go whatever the court decides? Or will you scream "conspiracy!" if it doesn't go the way you want?

Good luck in all your endeavors--I hope you get the closure you need so we can move on to the next fight--us against management instead of us against us.

The offer for beverages still stands whatever the outcome
:beer:

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

We will fight on to right your wrong.

The posts by some of you arrogant APA/AA guys are incredible.

True security and a National Union is only a dream with the likes of you. See you on the Picket line I hope.​

Mach8Forest​

Mach8Forest,​

The posts by some of our guys incredible -- Is that not the ultimate in hypocrisy Mach8Forest?​

Though you bring up some good points, at this juncture you and I will just have to agree to disagree. As much as you think you are right, equally, I think you are just as wrong. We all see Supp CC from different angles. That’s the reason why we have courts in this country.​

APA, and I am sure ALPA, all along expected lawsuits as a result of Supp CC. The agreement was written to stand up to any potential litigation. But everyone deserves their day in court. Just calling people names and hating all the natives makes for a weak case, but it sounds like you are doing your research. Present you side of the story and see if the judge listens. I just hope for your own welfare, that whether win or lose, you can put this behind you and move on. ​

I do think a lot of your anger is directed at the wrong group. Like Hangin’ On alluded, not only are natives involved in this, you have ALPA, TWA’s management, and probably one of the worst all-time CEO’s – Don Carty himself as perhaps bigger conspirators in this sordid tale. ​

I’m all for a national union though all we got now is ALPA and I don’t see too many pilots jumping on that bandwagon lately. It would go a long ways in helping to peacefully settle any future mergers. Though, I seriously doubt Southwest would have any thing to do with a national union involving the legacies. ​

AA767AV8TOR ​

 

[ils2minimums]

It would go a long ways in helping to peacefully settle any future mergers.​

I think I'd use another word in the place of "peacefully", maybe "simplify"... A national union would only work if there was ONE seniority list, and that is simply not practical. A while ago a couple of these guys who are bitter about the integrAAtion said the APA "scabs" should watch the AWA/USAir merger for a lesson on how things "should" be done... From reading the message boards, it's getting ugly, REALLY ugly. I agree with what was said earlier; some lawyers are getting rich while individuals and groups are running around filing lawsuits against every alphabet combination they can think of... In the end, the agreement will stick, the list will remain the same, Supp. CC stays put, and an @ssload of attorneys will pocket a lot of money...

​

 

[aa73]

73,

Thank you for the more eloquent delivery about our "rants." Perhaps they are just that.

Realize that for us former TWA types that if the ALPA suit bears fruit we're not stopping there with it--there'll be two other targets shortly thereafter.

Again, thank you for what I believe is somewhat of an understanding of that "inner rage" you describe. Now we'll see how the cards play out...


stlflyguy

STLFlyguy,

I hope it all pans out for you guys, and as I've said before, I would have been doing the same exact thing had I been in your shoes.

73