Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
APA's Prez Throws Down on Management
- Thread starter AA767AV8TOR
- Start date
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
AA767AV8TOR
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2006
- Posts
- 258
stlflyguy said:
Stlflyguy,
So what’s your point??
You had already signed away your rights as terms of the AA-TWA acquisition. Besides a no-furlough clause is not worth the paper it is written on:
"American, however, conditioned its purchase offer and its commitment to employ TWA’s unionized work force, including its pilots, on a waiver by the TWA unions of certain labor protective provisions of their collective bargaining agreements (“CBAs”), including provisions providing for the arbitration of seniority integration issues, that were in conflict with the CBAs American had with its employee unions, including the APA, which represented the American pilots."
Good luck in court. I still think as a group, the TWA pilots, came out quite good (not great) in the acquisition. Maybe the judge will buy your arguments. Hopefully, the recalls will start soon.
Still looking forward (but will be checking six for any backstabbers),
AA767AV8TOR
AA767AV8TOR
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2006
- Posts
- 258
Mach8Forest
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2005
- Posts
- 97
AA767AV8TOR
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2006
- Posts
- 258
pylut
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2002
- Posts
- 177
AA717driver
A simpler time...
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2003
- Posts
- 4,908
TCHangin' On
Member
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2006
- Posts
- 23
aa73 said:
Almost sounds like C&R, huh?
I'll try one last time...Supp CC screwed a lot of people. Carty, Icahn, ALPA, and APA stepped on it/collected their own pile/bailed on representation/looked out for themselves respectively. I'll bet we all can agree on all of the above. Now, let's be big boys and girls and step up to the plate and finally hit one out of the park!!
The only way this is going to happen is to put the past where it belongs and work on the future. If we don't, it will make Supp CC look like the best deal anyone ever got.
Why is this such a hard concept?
stlflyguy said:
No, I am a former Eagle guy who moved on and was just tossing some flame bait. However, I did enjoy flying with both Natives and Teeway's, except for all the pissn and moaning about each other. Get over it and move on before you all die a lonely pathetic death whining about how you were wronged. We all have been screwed to some degree along our career: fight your battle, take your lumps, and roll on.
Mach8Forest
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2005
- Posts
- 97
AA767AV8TOR said:
We will fight on to right your wrong. The justice system is not perfect, hell look at OJ. In fact he would be a great spokesman for the APA. In case you missed it here it is again.
The posts by some of you arrogant APA/AA guys are incredible. You now want to talk about UNITY?You are the Bean Counters dream of Unionism. Ready, Willing, and Able SCABS at their finest. Oh you did not cross a picket line but you stole the jobs of a unionized pilot group that were not yours. This is worse than a SCAB in my book. Your group is not a union at all but just simply a special interest group that spreads miss information among its masses in order to justify its wrongs. Then its repeated like a parrot by some idiot. So 767AV8TOR can you answer this? When should a true union use corporate finances as a weapon to strip someone else of their careers to better their own? NEVER! Lucky for you that safety records or TWA’s past merger policy was not the vehicle of our seniority.
This merger reminded me of something I witnessed in 1989 pushing back in an L1011 at JFK bound for Lisbon. Seagulls on top of our Jetway attacked a pigeon as we were pushing back. The pigeon appeared to have been killed as it lay on its side bleeding as we were starting the engines. I asked the captain I was flying with what was that all about. He believed that the seagulls were sick of competing for food and decided collectively to kill this pigeon.
National Unity = APA should have taken pilots when they took TWA’s London Routes as United did with PA but they did not.
Career Expectations = Hello aa767av8tor are you aware that TWA at that time carried more people to London than AA did to the whole continent of Europe.
Reality = AA could not grow internally fast enough to compete so they had to purchase someone to be the biggest.
THE REASON.= A decade plus later and with the ego threat of not being the biggest Airline against United, AA went into action. But how could they do it cleanly and without Icahn getting into AA.
Setting the Stage= How did TWA go Bankrupt when it entered that winter with more cash than it had in 7 prior years? Every other Airline was making some money at the time and TWA although not on par had proportionally similar trends? Why did cash strapped TWA spend over 80 million pulling out of European city pairs and paying heavy employee severance fines and penalties? Wasn’t Cash Critical? DUH!
Berlin was conducting the Orchestra and directing the play long before the curtain opened.
WHY TWA? =Lets think about this for a moment with some reason. Here sits TWA, an East/ West flow airline with a big hub (STL) sandwiched between AA’s two Major East/ West flow hubs (DFW, ORD) and was hurting AA East/West yields. TWA also had over a hundred east coast landing slots (88 in NY) with facilities, Hangers, and gates on both coasts. Their reservation system was worth millions on the market. After the demise of Eastern and Pan Am, AA enjoyed virtually no competition on very high yield routes in the Caribbean. Here sits TWA again as they were developing and growing a SJU mini Hub. They became the only future hub threat in the Caribbean with over 60 flights per day and growing out of SJU. I knew when they delayed the start of our MIA – SJU flights something smelled badly. TWA also had Route authority’s beyond imagination for an expanding AA airline.
Our Past Merger = As far as the Ozark merger is concerned only one guy in any merger believes he did not get screwed and he is number one. The rest feel that even with a date of hire scenario with fences like the TWA/OZ merger that they somehow lost something. I have friends on both sides of the fence. I can tell you that when I was an engineer in NY on the L1011 some of my favorite Captains including the number one man on that equipment were Green (OZ).
The Future = Mergers with lopsided past hiring dates create additional problems among pilots and their ego’s of who should get what. AA and Reno Air is a good example as they were a young airline bought by an older seniority. The real test for the industry will be the AWA and USAIR outcomeor when the regionals start to merge.
We Could have had Unity. AA and TWA’s pilot seniority hiring dates and seats were super close as 1989 hires were checking out as captains at both carriers. There was no need for the slaughter of our livelihoods other than greed and insecurity. A 5+ year or more fence or the Tannen proposal would have sufficed. Before the AA purchase, TWA pilots had East and West coast domiciles. After the AA purchase Berlin shoved us all into STL so AA pilots could have all the International, Transcons + Caribbean. So AA767av8tor you can take your DFW HNLflt and shove it.
Past Precedent = Correct me if I am wrong but didn’t Nashville Eagle (APA) give bankrupt Air Virginia (ALPA) pilots date of hire with fences in an exact buyout scenario?
Unity ?????? = Look in the rear view mirror my AA friends and remember the words APA used during the slashing of our livelihoods and families well being. This industries fate is still unpredictable. There is no corporate crystal ball in this industry. You allowed radicals who applied ignorant self-serving beliefs for their own advantage to lead you. Now you want us to get over it and talk about Unity. You have damaged this occupation beyond repair. The APA should have led by example by doing the right thing. Sit back now and watch other carriers pilots and the regionals emulate you. These carriers’ bean counters will use their pilot’s greed as a weapon like AA did to keep this profession destabilized. True security and a National Union is only a dream with the likes of you. See you on the Picket line I hope.
Mach8Forest
This merger reminded me of something I witnessed in 1989 pushing back in an L1011 at JFK bound for Lisbon. Seagulls on top of our Jetway attacked a pigeon as we were pushing back. The pigeon appeared to have been killed as it lay on its side bleeding as we were starting the engines. I asked the captain I was flying with what was that all about. He believed that the seagulls were sick of competing for food and decided collectively to kill this pigeon.
National Unity = APA should have taken pilots when they took TWA’s London Routes as United did with PA but they did not.
Career Expectations = Hello aa767av8tor are you aware that TWA at that time carried more people to London than AA did to the whole continent of Europe.
Reality = AA could not grow internally fast enough to compete so they had to purchase someone to be the biggest.
THE REASON.= A decade plus later and with the ego threat of not being the biggest Airline against United, AA went into action. But how could they do it cleanly and without Icahn getting into AA.
Setting the Stage= How did TWA go Bankrupt when it entered that winter with more cash than it had in 7 prior years? Every other Airline was making some money at the time and TWA although not on par had proportionally similar trends? Why did cash strapped TWA spend over 80 million pulling out of European city pairs and paying heavy employee severance fines and penalties? Wasn’t Cash Critical? DUH!
Berlin was conducting the Orchestra and directing the play long before the curtain opened.
WHY TWA? =Lets think about this for a moment with some reason. Here sits TWA, an East/ West flow airline with a big hub (STL) sandwiched between AA’s two Major East/ West flow hubs (DFW, ORD) and was hurting AA East/West yields. TWA also had over a hundred east coast landing slots (88 in NY) with facilities, Hangers, and gates on both coasts. Their reservation system was worth millions on the market. After the demise of Eastern and Pan Am, AA enjoyed virtually no competition on very high yield routes in the Caribbean. Here sits TWA again as they were developing and growing a SJU mini Hub. They became the only future hub threat in the Caribbean with over 60 flights per day and growing out of SJU. I knew when they delayed the start of our MIA – SJU flights something smelled badly. TWA also had Route authority’s beyond imagination for an expanding AA airline.
Our Past Merger = As far as the Ozark merger is concerned only one guy in any merger believes he did not get screwed and he is number one. The rest feel that even with a date of hire scenario with fences like the TWA/OZ merger that they somehow lost something. I have friends on both sides of the fence. I can tell you that when I was an engineer in NY on the L1011 some of my favorite Captains including the number one man on that equipment were Green (OZ).
The Future = Mergers with lopsided past hiring dates create additional problems among pilots and their ego’s of who should get what. AA and Reno Air is a good example as they were a young airline bought by an older seniority. The real test for the industry will be the AWA and USAIR outcomeor when the regionals start to merge.
We Could have had Unity. AA and TWA’s pilot seniority hiring dates and seats were super close as 1989 hires were checking out as captains at both carriers. There was no need for the slaughter of our livelihoods other than greed and insecurity. A 5+ year or more fence or the Tannen proposal would have sufficed. Before the AA purchase, TWA pilots had East and West coast domiciles. After the AA purchase Berlin shoved us all into STL so AA pilots could have all the International, Transcons + Caribbean. So AA767av8tor you can take your DFW HNLflt and shove it.
Past Precedent = Correct me if I am wrong but didn’t Nashville Eagle (APA) give bankrupt Air Virginia (ALPA) pilots date of hire with fences in an exact buyout scenario?
Unity ?????? = Look in the rear view mirror my AA friends and remember the words APA used during the slashing of our livelihoods and families well being. This industries fate is still unpredictable. There is no corporate crystal ball in this industry. You allowed radicals who applied ignorant self-serving beliefs for their own advantage to lead you. Now you want us to get over it and talk about Unity. You have damaged this occupation beyond repair. The APA should have led by example by doing the right thing. Sit back now and watch other carriers pilots and the regionals emulate you. These carriers’ bean counters will use their pilot’s greed as a weapon like AA did to keep this profession destabilized. True security and a National Union is only a dream with the likes of you. See you on the Picket line I hope.
Mach8Forest
Last edited:
Hangin' On
Member
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2006
- Posts
- 23
Mach8Forest said:
Why I'm engaging you, I will never know. But I wonder why you single out the AA pilot group when there is a lot of blame to go around. Sure, APA took care of its own and in the process screwed a lot of people. However, at the time their mandate was to represent the pilots of AA. ALPA was supposed to represent you--seems like you should be absolutely furious with them. Carty's ego started this whole mess and Icahn's greed fit in there nicely too.
How 'bout redirecting that anger? Most of us on this thread just want to pull this profession out of its tailspin and you want to fight the last war. It's OVER!! Get some therapy, liquid or otherwise, and move on!
stlflyguy
UL Listed
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2003
- Posts
- 312
Hangin' On said:
Hey, we are getting therapy....in Federal Court against ALPA. I'm sure the connections between the Unions and Company will all start to come out in the depositions.....and then we'll be back at it with APA and AMR. No worries.
Until then, I agree with everything Mach8 said.
stlflyguy
Mach8Forest and STLFlyguy, here's the problem:
You are both absolutely right in your diagnoses (sp?) of what transcended. You have every right to be ticked off, and this native would not stand in your way. However, the fact that the lawsuit was thrown out by the judge is nothing more than "salt in the wounds" for your pilot group, and that fact alone will cause you guys to throw whatever hatred and insults you can conjure our way, for years to come - because that is all that's left of the ammunition. And that's human nature. Whether the judge was morally right or not is irrelevant - that's the good ol' judicial system of the USA, as we've seen in the past.
So in many ways, the hatred coming from some of your radicals is understandable, but in vain - because you are fighting a battle that in the end will hurt only yourselves. You've done exactly what I would've done in your shoes - sued the heck out of us - and when that avenue is expired, what more could I do? I don't have the kind of personality to spew hatred and insults just to satisfy some kind of "inner rage". But if that's the only way you can satifsy yourselves, have at it. I suspect that the main reason you revert to that kind of behavior is more to "stir up the troops" on this board than it is to vent. And that's understandable, given the fact that it didn't go your way, as I've said before.
So please understand that a lot of your rants and insults really just bounce off most of us, very much like temper tantrums from our kids, because we understand, as adults, that a lot of it really isn't your fault.
I wish all of you the very best, and hope that this doesn't end up ruining your lives any more than what already happened.
v/r,
73
You are both absolutely right in your diagnoses (sp?) of what transcended. You have every right to be ticked off, and this native would not stand in your way. However, the fact that the lawsuit was thrown out by the judge is nothing more than "salt in the wounds" for your pilot group, and that fact alone will cause you guys to throw whatever hatred and insults you can conjure our way, for years to come - because that is all that's left of the ammunition. And that's human nature. Whether the judge was morally right or not is irrelevant - that's the good ol' judicial system of the USA, as we've seen in the past.
So in many ways, the hatred coming from some of your radicals is understandable, but in vain - because you are fighting a battle that in the end will hurt only yourselves. You've done exactly what I would've done in your shoes - sued the heck out of us - and when that avenue is expired, what more could I do? I don't have the kind of personality to spew hatred and insults just to satisfy some kind of "inner rage". But if that's the only way you can satifsy yourselves, have at it. I suspect that the main reason you revert to that kind of behavior is more to "stir up the troops" on this board than it is to vent. And that's understandable, given the fact that it didn't go your way, as I've said before.
So please understand that a lot of your rants and insults really just bounce off most of us, very much like temper tantrums from our kids, because we understand, as adults, that a lot of it really isn't your fault.
I wish all of you the very best, and hope that this doesn't end up ruining your lives any more than what already happened.
v/r,
73
stlflyguy
UL Listed
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2003
- Posts
- 312
aa73 said:
73,
Thank you for the more eloquent delivery about our "rants." Perhaps they are just that.
Realize that for us former TWA types that if the ALPA suit bears fruit we're not stopping there with it--there'll be two other targets shortly thereafter.
Again, thank you for what I believe is somewhat of an understanding of that "inner rage" you describe. Now we'll see how the cards play out...
stlflyguy
Hangin' On
Member
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2006
- Posts
- 23
stlflyguy,stlflyguy said:
I hope you do well against ALPA--they seem to be the appropriate target. They sure haven't done much for anyone else either (read UAL, DAL, Eagle, etc.). I don't know all the details of the negotiations--only rumors from both sides. Hopefully the truth will come out in the depositions and all will be settled for good. My question is will you let it go whatever the court decides? Or will you scream "conspiracy!" if it doesn't go the way you want?
Good luck in all your endeavors--I hope you get the closure you need so we can move on to the next fight--us against management instead of us against us.
The offer for beverages still stands whatever the outcome
:beer:
AA767AV8TOR
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2006
- Posts
- 258
Mach8Forest said:
Mach8Forest,
The posts by some of our guys incredible -- Is that not the ultimate in hypocrisy Mach8Forest?
Though you bring up some good points, at this juncture you and I will just have to agree to disagree. As much as you think you are right, equally, I think you are just as wrong. We all see Supp CC from different angles. That’s the reason why we have courts in this country.
APA, and I am sure ALPA, all along expected lawsuits as a result of Supp CC. The agreement was written to stand up to any potential litigation. But everyone deserves their day in court. Just calling people names and hating all the natives makes for a weak case, but it sounds like you are doing your research. Present you side of the story and see if the judge listens. I just hope for your own welfare, that whether win or lose, you can put this behind you and move on.
I do think a lot of your anger is directed at the wrong group. Like Hangin’ On alluded, not only are natives involved in this, you have ALPA, TWA’s management, and probably one of the worst all-time CEO’s – Don Carty himself as perhaps bigger conspirators in this sordid tale.
I’m all for a national union though all we got now is ALPA and I don’t see too many pilots jumping on that bandwagon lately. It would go a long ways in helping to peacefully settle any future mergers. Though, I seriously doubt Southwest would have any thing to do with a national union involving the legacies.
AA767AV8TOR
ils2minimums
Registered Useless
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2006
- Posts
- 224
AA767AV8TOR said:
I think I'd use another word in the place of "peacefully", maybe "simplify"... A national union would only work if there was ONE seniority list, and that is simply not practical. A while ago a couple of these guys who are bitter about the integrAAtion said the APA "scabs" should watch the AWA/USAir merger for a lesson on how things "should" be done... From reading the message boards, it's getting ugly, REALLY ugly. I agree with what was said earlier; some lawyers are getting rich while individuals and groups are running around filing lawsuits against every alphabet combination they can think of... In the end, the agreement will stick, the list will remain the same, Supp. CC stays put, and an @ssload of attorneys will pocket a lot of money...
Mach8Forest
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2005
- Posts
- 97
Redirect it Where?Hangin' On said:
I had to sell a house that I swore I would live in the rest of my life.
Have you ever had to dip into your 401k? Ect Ect.
How about a trip to the local airport and see a Silver Bird with a TW N# and try not be angry when you had occupied the left seat? Where and what would you do with this anger? Get over it and move on, I highly doubt that.
I will and have moved on, I had no other choice, but I will never forgive or forget who harmed me, my family, and my TWA brother Captains and their families.
APA!
Mach8Forest
mannyaplus11
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2004
- Posts
- 144
Things would have to get REALLY bad where I am now before I go back to AA.
No provisions under the contract because the company said, "Force Majure."
NO Flowback
No Furlough Pay
No Jumpseat
No Passes
No health care
But, hey, I did get to keep that neat little blue uniform with the cute hat.
No provisions under the contract because the company said, "Force Majure."
NO Flowback
No Furlough Pay
No Jumpseat
No Passes
No health care
But, hey, I did get to keep that neat little blue uniform with the cute hat.
AA717driver
A simpler time...
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2003
- Posts
- 4,908
Ok, this explains one aspect of the continued heartburn over the integration:
Supp CC has many pilots upset on BOTH sides. I'm a native AA pilot in the SLT domicile. I'll make no bones about it. I'd like to see more of those Capt positions in the hands of AA pilots (system seniority). Like any solution (CC included), there will ALWAYS be pilots on both sides that are upset. I guess the key, is to have as few upset at possible (on both sides).
I have heard recently that if AA were to pay protect the ex TWA pilots who fall under the Supp CC TW Capt positions, and AA were to efficiently redeploy their aircraft assets as they desire--that increased revenue would MORE than offset the pay protection of the TW pilots.
So.....how about it?
1) pay protection (Supp CC amounts for SWB and NB Captains) for the TW pilots?
2) if so, do we maintain the AA fences? might not be fair, BUT why not? for they'd be getting Captain's pay, right?
3) or, do we allow FULL system seniority, anywhere on any equipment?
4) if so, then CA positions and 777/A300 FO positions would be available at other bases for the TW pilots immediately.
5) if so, though....200-300 native AA pilots would have Captain position opportunities.
"Being" a captain has been a very big part of the TW pilot's mindset (not a slam guys). These guys will be upset. Especially the ones that live in St. Louis.
IMO, a judge would laugh them out of court, since they were receiving Captain's pay. (maybe making even more money, if they displaced into a 'senior' FO position and had F/T and M/U, TTOT/SEP abilities to go high)
IMO, the lack of "self-actualizing" (ie..not being a captain) would NOT contribute to a successful DFR lawsuit against APA.
MANY exTW pilots in the Northeast (NYC area), Florida, LAX would/could eliminate/reduce their commuting.
Although, the commuting OUT of STL would probably increase
(including myself).
This would introduce the opportunity for 200-300 AA pilots to upgrade to Captain.
Just some ideas.............fire away....................XXXXX
------------------------------
This was posted on C & R by one of the more notorious TWA bashers and is exactly what causes such angst among those considering accepting recall. I contend that there is not a small number of Natives who would not think twice if Sup. CC went away (by whatever means).
Had Sup. CC been a 4 party agreement, it wouldn't be an issue. Since it's not, it continues and will always be a point of concern for the former TWA'ers at AA.TC
Supp CC has many pilots upset on BOTH sides. I'm a native AA pilot in the SLT domicile. I'll make no bones about it. I'd like to see more of those Capt positions in the hands of AA pilots (system seniority). Like any solution (CC included), there will ALWAYS be pilots on both sides that are upset. I guess the key, is to have as few upset at possible (on both sides).
I have heard recently that if AA were to pay protect the ex TWA pilots who fall under the Supp CC TW Capt positions, and AA were to efficiently redeploy their aircraft assets as they desire--that increased revenue would MORE than offset the pay protection of the TW pilots.
So.....how about it?
1) pay protection (Supp CC amounts for SWB and NB Captains) for the TW pilots?
2) if so, do we maintain the AA fences? might not be fair, BUT why not? for they'd be getting Captain's pay, right?
3) or, do we allow FULL system seniority, anywhere on any equipment?
4) if so, then CA positions and 777/A300 FO positions would be available at other bases for the TW pilots immediately.
5) if so, though....200-300 native AA pilots would have Captain position opportunities.
"Being" a captain has been a very big part of the TW pilot's mindset (not a slam guys). These guys will be upset. Especially the ones that live in St. Louis.
IMO, a judge would laugh them out of court, since they were receiving Captain's pay. (maybe making even more money, if they displaced into a 'senior' FO position and had F/T and M/U, TTOT/SEP abilities to go high)
IMO, the lack of "self-actualizing" (ie..not being a captain) would NOT contribute to a successful DFR lawsuit against APA.
MANY exTW pilots in the Northeast (NYC area), Florida, LAX would/could eliminate/reduce their commuting.
Although, the commuting OUT of STL would probably increase
(including myself).
This would introduce the opportunity for 200-300 AA pilots to upgrade to Captain.
Just some ideas.............fire away....................XXXXX
------------------------------
This was posted on C & R by one of the more notorious TWA bashers and is exactly what causes such angst among those considering accepting recall. I contend that there is not a small number of Natives who would not think twice if Sup. CC went away (by whatever means).
Had Sup. CC been a 4 party agreement, it wouldn't be an issue. Since it's not, it continues and will always be a point of concern for the former TWA'ers at AA.TC
Rik717pilot
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2006
- Posts
- 85
Mach8Forest is absolutely correct. Pliske and his ilk are the reason APA sued the TWA pilots first. It was AA/APA attempted preemptive strike to force their cram down upon us with out one bit of assistance from the back stabbing ALPA. Now this idiot wants us to take in the shorts again so he can drive to work, while we have to commute to get to our base. What a jerk.
stlflyguy
UL Listed
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2003
- Posts
- 312
Rik717pilot said:
What I find interesting is that APA sued one TWA pilot and then named every pilot on the TWA list without ever naming ALPA as a defendant. And to make matters worse, ALPA is nowhere to be found to defend the TWA pilots.
The omission was glaring!
Back to Pliske and his ilk, he is the PRIME EXAMPLE of why it'll be hard to get TWA pilots to stand united with the APA.
stlflyguy
Gentlemen,
I think what MP is trying to say is this:
Supp CC will most likely change with the new contract. That much is known. The question is, in what way can it change while not harming the expectations of the pilots it was designed to represent?
There have been rumors flying around that one way to accomplish this would be to let the STL-protected TWA seniority expire, and all protected Captains fall wherever their AA seniority lets them - while pay protecting them as Captains since most would fall to F/O.
The reason for that is this - the STL parings are built to reflect 30% of the lines at DFW and ORD (i.e. it is an artificial base. If STL had true originating lines, it would smaller than our DCA base.) This costs the company a fortune, because when DFW or ORD grows, STL has to grow, too, regardless of the small amount of originating flights it has.
Whether that's a good deal or not - I don't know nor am I qualified to know. There are simply too many variables, most of which are out of my knowledge base. But I can say that it could very well be designed to withstand yet another lawsuit (which would most likely be launched by the Red guys), since the only change is the physical seat. STL would most likely be shut down. It would benefit many, many STL commuters, especially TWA captains and F/Os who were forced into STL when AA shut down all other TWA bases/satellites.
The only gripe I've heard coming from damn few TWA pilots is this - "I don't want to lose my CA's seat." Most think it would be a good deal, because who would turn down CA pay to sit in the right seat, and not have to commute, to boot.
So I don't think MP is trying to stir the pot, rather he is communicating what he's heard circulating around Berlin (the Flight academy.)
What do you TWA guys think about it - good or bad?
73
I think what MP is trying to say is this:
Supp CC will most likely change with the new contract. That much is known. The question is, in what way can it change while not harming the expectations of the pilots it was designed to represent?
There have been rumors flying around that one way to accomplish this would be to let the STL-protected TWA seniority expire, and all protected Captains fall wherever their AA seniority lets them - while pay protecting them as Captains since most would fall to F/O.
The reason for that is this - the STL parings are built to reflect 30% of the lines at DFW and ORD (i.e. it is an artificial base. If STL had true originating lines, it would smaller than our DCA base.) This costs the company a fortune, because when DFW or ORD grows, STL has to grow, too, regardless of the small amount of originating flights it has.
Whether that's a good deal or not - I don't know nor am I qualified to know. There are simply too many variables, most of which are out of my knowledge base. But I can say that it could very well be designed to withstand yet another lawsuit (which would most likely be launched by the Red guys), since the only change is the physical seat. STL would most likely be shut down. It would benefit many, many STL commuters, especially TWA captains and F/Os who were forced into STL when AA shut down all other TWA bases/satellites.
The only gripe I've heard coming from damn few TWA pilots is this - "I don't want to lose my CA's seat." Most think it would be a good deal, because who would turn down CA pay to sit in the right seat, and not have to commute, to boot.
So I don't think MP is trying to stir the pot, rather he is communicating what he's heard circulating around Berlin (the Flight academy.)
What do you TWA guys think about it - good or bad?
73
stlflyguy
UL Listed
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2003
- Posts
- 312
aa73 said:
Bad.
My first question is "What is a protected TWA Captain?" What about those who fall above Alehult in seniority that have a "protected" STL Captain's seat? Sure, most of those guys (myself included) are on furlough but you'd be targeting one specific group of pilots.
Do the duties of Captain match the duties of First Officer? I'd say "No." Does the First Officer get to make the Captain's decisions because he's paid the same? No. The job may seem the same from the outside, but I think we know that the duties are different. When I see a native Captain doing a walk-around I'll know something's changed. :laugh:
I understand the economics. At this point, I'd say that any erosion of Supp CC could only be sold to the TWA pilots with a seniority shuffle--and only for the better. The Company and APA entered into this agreement without the agreement of the TWA pilots. My sentiment is that they can choke on it unless they want to improve it for the TWA pilots.
stlflyguy
AA717driver
A simpler time...
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2003
- Posts
- 4,908
Ok, if being a CA isn't that big of a deal, why not pay protect those Native who would hold CA in the absence of the Sup CC protections?
Not gonna happen.
AMR/AA management washed its hands and let APA craft Sup. CC. Now, they don't like it. Tough.
This wouldn't be a problem if the TWA pilots were given a seniority number reflecting their true expectations. We weren't and instead, we were given Sup. CC to "accomplish the same thing".
Any changes to Sup. CC would be a further diminishing of the intent of APA at the time Sup. CC was crafted.
The TWA pilots were protected in STL because that was all the APA Merger Committee believed we would ever see (conveniently ignoring bases at JFK and LAX...). Now, I guess they are ready to conveniently forget the Captain seats we held. TC
Not gonna happen.
AMR/AA management washed its hands and let APA craft Sup. CC. Now, they don't like it. Tough.
This wouldn't be a problem if the TWA pilots were given a seniority number reflecting their true expectations. We weren't and instead, we were given Sup. CC to "accomplish the same thing".
Any changes to Sup. CC would be a further diminishing of the intent of APA at the time Sup. CC was crafted.
The TWA pilots were protected in STL because that was all the APA Merger Committee believed we would ever see (conveniently ignoring bases at JFK and LAX...). Now, I guess they are ready to conveniently forget the Captain seats we held. TC
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
