APA's Prez Throws Down on Management

[Dangerkitty]

Ignorance is not a putdown Kitty!
I believe I can help you with this term Crandalism.
Pilots when hired and not acquired by AA seem to get a partial lobotomy before hitting the real world. These pilots then get filled with Greed, Selfishness, and (AA)rrogance before hitting the line. If you did not show up for class with the World Revolves Around Me Perspective On Everything, they implant it before they allow you to join the APA. These are all necessary and important behavioral steps to becoming an APA member and completely distancing yourself nationally from all your brothers of trade.
These are some of the symptoms and behavioral traits displayed by your fellow (AA)viators. They have aligned themselves with their Corporations greed instead of fellow aviators and brothers of the trade. These behaviors that started in the 80’s and witnessed by thousands of fellow pilots coined the phrase or term Crandalism.
I hope this helps your understanding and maybe with time away from AA, and some maturing, you might outgrow the stink that follows you and your Crandalism/AAttitude.
Mach8forest

Hmmmmmm, interesting.

I wonder what the term was for the TWA pilots when they gave the Ozark guys "Date of Hire."

 

[Mach8Forest]

Hmmmmmm, interesting.

I wonder what the term was for the TWA pilots when they gave the Ozark guys "Date of Hire."

Your showing your ignorance again Kitty!
Mach8Forest

 

[Dangerkitty]

Your showing your ignorance again Kitty!
Mach8Forest

No I am not. Didn't TWA give Ozark "Date of Hire?"

 

[Mach8Forest]

Yes they did get date of hire. Should it have been better? Maybe.
I can hear your sarcasm a mile away. I had friends on both sides that feel they were hurt when the fence eventually came down. Its funny how you APA scabs bring up our merger with Ozark everytime someone makes you look in the mirror.
Mach8Forest

 

[ERfly]

APA scabs

Did anyone cross for the 20 minutes the AA guys were out before that genious, Bubba put 'em back to work?

I don't recall there being any scabs at AA. Maybe I'm too young.

 

[kjokmo]

Sorry to say with AA parking planes and the likely Age 60 rule going to 65, it is going to be awhile for recalls. Just guessing but 2008/9 before the first man is recalled? The good thing is it will probably be pretty quick to go through the list since most folks have moved on to greener pastures.. FedEX, SWA, etc... And the thought of 18 days of reserve in NY makes most sick!uke:

I laugh everytime someone tries to GUESS when recalls will start. You would be better off guessing the next lotto numbers.

 

[Dangerkitty]

Yes they did get date of hire. Should it have been better? Maybe.I can hear your sarcasm a mile away. I had friends on both sides that feel they were hurt when the fence eventually came down.

Yeah they got DOH but didn't get longevity during furlough like the TWA pilots did. The fact of the matter is the Ozark pilots were screwed royally by the TWA pilots.

Its funny how you APA scabs bring up our merger with Ozark everytime someone makes you look in the mirror.
Mach8Forest

Why are you calling me a scab? I have never been involved in a strike nor have I ever crossed a picket line. Furthermore, as I have stated about 1000 times here I also had nothing to do wih the buyout, acquisition, nor the integration.

But I have gotten over my hard feelings and bitterness towards the whole deal. I am sorry that you continue to boil in your hatred and self pity.

 

[ironspud]

Yes they did get date of hire. Should it have been better? Maybe.
I can hear your sarcasm a mile away. I had friends on both sides that feel they were hurt when the fence eventually came down. Its funny how you APA scabs bring up our merger with Ozark everytime someone makes you look in the mirror.
Mach8Forest

She's just a disgruntled AA pilot.:crying:

 

[Dangerkitty]

She's just a disgruntled AA pilot.:crying:

Thats what I have been saying all along. Mach8Forest IS a disgruntled TWA/AA pilot.

 

[stlflyguy]

Yeah they got DOH but didn't get longevity during furlough like the TWA pilots did. The fact of the matter is the Ozark pilots were screwed royally by the TWA pilots.



Why are you calling me a scab? I have never been involved in a strike nor have I ever crossed a picket line. Furthermore, as I have stated about 1000 times here I also had nothing to do wih the buyout, acquisition, nor the integration.

But I have gotten over my hard feelings and bitterness towards the whole deal. I am sorry that you continue to boil in your hatred and self pity.

To call you a dip#hit would be a compliment. The Ozark pilots received date of hire and guess what...AGREED TO IT by signing the merger document.

The TWA pilots in the AA deal would have gladly accepted the "Ozark Agreement" but your Union knew that giving the TW pilots OZ would be too good of a deal. So you kept better than 130 former TWA aircraft and staffed them with a fraction's fraction of TWA pilots. All during the false guise of sitting through "facilitated" discussions to work to an integration agreement that the APA already had agreed to months before with the Company. The TWA pilots were not signatories to this POS cramdown. If anything I hope it ends up right up the collective arses of the APA and AMR. Try that for a "$hit sandwich."

No, you may not have crossed a picket line but you did everything you could to f*&k as many TWA pilots as possible. Pretty "scab worthy" in my book.

stlflyguy

 

[Dangerkitty]

To call you a dip#hit would be a compliment.

WOW, you sure have a way with words.

The Ozark pilots received date of hire and guess what...AGREED TO IT by signing the merger document.

You agreed to waive all seniority rights as a condition of being bought by AA.

The TWA pilots in the AA deal would have gladly accepted the "Ozark Agreement" but your Union knew that giving the TW pilots OZ would be too good of a deal.

It would have been too good of a deal. Your company had two choices. Be acquired by AA or be liquidated.

So you kept better than 130 former TWA aircraft and staffed them with a fraction's fraction of TWA pilots.

Why do you keep referring to AA/AMR as "you"? Like I was the one that started all this mess?

BTW, news flash. Those TWA airplanes were purchased from the profit and labor of AA employees.

All during the false guise of sitting through "facilitated" discussions to work to an integration agreement that the APA already had agreed to months before with the Company.

Thats funny. Prove it.

If anything I hope it ends up right up the collective arses of the APA and AMR. Try that for a "$hit sandwich."

It wont and you know it. Your pathetic little lawsuit keeps being shot down and dismissed. Yet you morons keep funneling money to the attornies in hopes that you will win the lottery. Sorry, aint gonna happen.

No, you may not have crossed a picket line but you did everything you could to f*&k as many TWA pilots as possible. Pretty "scab worthy" in my book.

Again you keep referring to me as if I was the one that started this whole mess. Where you get that is beyond me. For the 1001th time I had nothing to do with this. Blame Carty and Compton for all your problems. They were the idiots who thought all this up.

 

[Mach8Forest]

Ignorance is not a putdown Kitty!
I believe I can help you with this term Crandalism.
Pilots when hired and not acquired by AA seem to get a partial lobotomy before hitting the real world. These pilots then get filled with Greed, Selfishness, and (AA)rrogance before hitting the line. If you did not show up for class with the World Revolves Around Me Perspective On Everything, they implant it before they allow you to join the APA. These are all necessary and important behavioral steps to becoming an APA member and completely distancing yourself nationally from all your brothers of trade.
These are some of the symptoms and behavioral traits displayed by your fellow (AA)viators. They have aligned themselves with their Corporations greed instead of fellow aviators and brothers of the trade. These behaviors that started in the 80’s and witnessed by thousands of fellow pilots coined the phrase or term Crandalism.
I hope this helps your understanding and maybe with time away from AA, and some maturing, you might outgrow the stink that follows you and your Crandalism/AAttitude.
Mach8forest

DangerKitty I believe got the full and not partial.
Mach8Forest

 

[Dangerkitty]

DangerKitty I believe got the full and not partial.
Mach8Forest

What did the TWA pilots get that joined APA? You do know that more than half of them did.

 

[stlflyguy]

WOW, you sure have a way with words.


You agreed to waive all seniority rights as a condition of being bought by AA.


It would have been too good of a deal. Your company had two choices. Be acquired by AA or be liquidated.


Why do you keep referring to AA/AMR as "you"? Like I was the one that started all this mess?

BTW, news flash. Those TWA airplanes were purchased from the profit and labor of AA employees.


Thats funny. Prove it.


It wont and you know it. Your pathetic little lawsuit keeps being shot down and dismissed. Yet you morons keep funneling money to the attornies in hopes that you will win the lottery. Sorry, aint gonna happen.


Again you keep referring to me as if I was the one that started this whole mess. Where you get that is beyond me. For the 1001th time I had nothing to do with this. Blame Carty and Compton for all your problems. They were the idiots who thought all this up.

We agreed to waive those rights based on flawed information provided by the same Union your Union wished to jump in bed with. AMR required TWA to be in bankruptcy for the purchase to take place. AMR suggested that TWA use the 1113 process to void the pilots' (and for that matter, any other labor group that stood in the way) contract.

So if I should credit you with the hard earned cash that labor has made that provided the ability for AMR to purchase TWA, I should also credit you for the staggering losses over the last six years. Somehow I don't think you'll buy it. After all, you can do no wrong. Your attitude of indifference and the looting of the careers of others will come back to haunt the AA pilots.

Oh, and by the way, the law firm took the suit on a rather "favorable" basis.

stlflyguy

 

[Dangerkitty]

We agreed to waive those rights based on flawed information provided by the same Union your Union wished to jump in bed with. AMR required TWA to be in bankruptcy for the purchase to take place. AMR suggested that TWA use the 1113 process to void the pilots' (and for that matter, any other labor group that stood in the way) contract.

OK, where do I fit into any of this? Again, I had nothing to do with any of this mess, yet you continue to blame ME.

So if I should credit you with the hard earned cash that labor has made that provided the ability for AMR to purchase TWA, I should also credit you for the staggering losses over the last six years.

No, you should credit the morons that run AMR.

Your attitude of indifference and the looting of the careers of others will come back to haunt the AA pilots.

I dont care who it haunts at AA. I left 3 years ago and I am not going back.

Oh, and by the way, the law firm took the suit on a rather "favorable" basis.

Of course they took it on a "favorable" basis, you morons keep passing money over to them. They are lawyers for Christ sake, they aint gonna let that gravy train run dry!! I am sure of few beach houses were purchased by these lawyers from the proceeds of your "Hail Mary"!!

 

[stlflyguy]

OK, where do I fit into any of this? Again, I had nothing to do with any of this mess, yet you continue to blame ME.



No, you should credit the morons that run AMR.



I dont care who it haunts at AA. I left 3 years ago and I am not going back.



Of course they took it on a "favorable" basis, you morons keep passing money over to them. They are lawyers for Christ sake, they aint gonna let that gravy train run dry!! I am sure of few beach houses were purchased by these lawyers from the proceeds of your "Hail Mary"!!

You prove my point DangerPu$$y. You'll take no part of the losses, only the gains.

And your last comment about passing them money, without surprise, shows you're completely clueless.

Perhaps for the better.

stlflyguy

 

[Dangerkitty]

You prove my point DangerPu$$y. You'll take no part of the losses, only the gains.

BS. The profits that AMR generated were because of LABOR. The losses were incurred because of bad management decisions. It really is not that complicated.

And your last comment about passing them money, without surprise, shows you're completely clueless.

No, it shows that I realize that you idiots don't have a snowball's chance in hell at winning what you think is "Fair and Equitable." Your old buddy Kit Bond couldn't get it legislated so now you are trying the Courts. Your pathetic attempts at getting a better seniority number has been shot down numerous times. Yet you believe the attornies that are on your bank roll. Because Lawyers are so trust worthy.

 

[stlflyguy]

Again, you prove my point DangerPu$$y.

stlflyguy

 

[Dangerkitty]

Again, you prove my point DangerPu$$y.

stlflyguy

Quitting so soon?

 

[ironspud]

Quitting so soon?

Yeah stlflyguy. You should respond to her underwhelming intelligence.

 

[Mach8Forest]

BS.


No, it shows that I realize that you idiots don't have a snowball's chance in hell at winning what you think is "Fair and Equitable." Your old buddy Kit Bond couldn't get it legislated so now you are trying the Courts. Your pathetic attempts at getting a better seniority number has been shot down numerous times. Yet you believe the attornies that are on your bank roll. Because Lawyers are so trust worthy.

DangerKitty
You are the poster child of crandalism and the skyNazi youth. It is a matter of Right vs Wrong. Reach deep into your heart if you have one and tell us that what you and your APA did was right. We will fight on forever and please in the future post your selfserving, brainwashed, Me First, APA views on the corporate boards where you reside. Goodnight all.
Mach8Forest

 

[Deacon]

I know who he is. I am quite well aware of AA's past since I flew for them.

However, what is "Crandalism" and how in the heck does it apply to me since I have nothing to do with how the airline is run and since I no longer work there?
I have never heard of the term.

If you are going to make observations the least you can do is back them up.

Actually what I meant is that there is and always will be distrust between the AA pilots and their management because management does whatever it wants whever it wants at AA.........no matter who it is...started by BOB Crandall

 

[ils2minimums]

The Throw Down, Part Deaux

Things Change, Part II

The Road Forward​

Those who know me well would say that I am neither quick to judge nor quick to anger. I don’t react to every bit of news – positive or negative – that pops up, and I try to exercise patience when working through the challenges that are inevitably a part of my job. I believe hastily drawn conclusions are seldom right.
The current divide did not occur suddenly or without warning. Your APA leadership continued with the collaborative process until it became abundantly clear that we could not bridge the widening gulf between management and pilot expectations. Our participation was a valuable experience. We made a genuine attempt to repair a long history of acrimonious labor relations at American Airlines.
Gerard Arpey is due credit for his attempt to change an insular and dysfunctional corporate culture. The effort has been a sincere and noble one, but one that has thus far failed. I believe Mr. Arpey is an honorable man who has been unable to reconcile the demands of multiple constituencies. Holdovers from AMR’s old school of management were allowed to slowly strangle the collaborative effort in its infancy as they elevated senior management to a protected class that would “win” regardless of the outcome for the rest of the employees. Ironically, “management retention” continues to be cited as a primary reason for a divisive executive compensation program. In reality, the primary management retention problem at this airline is the retention of managers who are out of touch with their employees and place their own personal gain ahead of the good of the company. Management ought to be concerned with retaining the hearts and minds of the employees who have made great sacrifices on behalf of their company.
As we move forward, the relevant issue is not whether Gerard Arpey or any of his senior managers are worth the compensation packages they have been granted. Instead, we take this as a sign that AA has returned to sound financial footing and the time has come to recognize and reward those who made this success possible. The relevant issue is not whether Mr. Arpey is doing a better or worse job than other airline CEOs. By all appearances, American Airlines is doing well, and Mr. Arpey obviously deserves some of the credit.
The relevant issue is management’s abandonment of the fundamental premise – that they themselves created – upon which American Airlines’ recovery was built: “Pull Together/Win Together.” The pilots are key employees who make this airline function every single day. Through our hard work and dedication, American Airlines’ pilots are just as responsible for our company’s increasing financial and operational performance. Although all of us would rather have management freely acknowledge and reward that contribution, we are willing to fight for our rightful share of our airline’s increasing wealth when necessary.
As we transition to this new – some would say, old – phase of labor/management relations, I want to be clear that your APA leadership’s goal has been and always will be to represent the best interests of the membership. We participated in AA’s new and unprecedented collaborative efforts because we sincerely believed that the best possible outcome for the pilots would occur if all parties properly aligned their interests and worked together toward a mutually agreed-upon goal. Our past two years of effort were a necessary and valuable attempt to redefine the nature of management/labor relations in a way that would produce appreciable gains for AA pilots. Unfortunately, a true collaborative effort is simply not possible when management places themselves in a special class and believes they deserve special treatment. We are now faced with the necessity of returning to the familiar pattern of hard bargaining for our future pay, benefits and working conditions.
As most of you know, American Airlines recently decided to exercise the “early opener” provision of our contract, and we will exchange openers on September 20. Your APA leadership is looking forward to presenting the pilots’ case for improved compensation, work rules, benefits, and job and retirement security.
Since management has now changed the rules of engagement, I believe it is appropriate for APA to start our contract negotiations from a clean sheet. Mindful of the APA Board of Directors’ ultimate authority to establish Association policy, I will make the following recommendations for upcoming Section 6 negotiations:

• First, since the process associated with the Performance Leadership Initiative (PLI) failed to produce any tangible benefits for our pilots, we should now end any further participation under the PLI framework. Rather, we should require that management first address our needs for improved compensation, benefits and job security before we expend any more significant resources on pilot productivity issues. The airline industry continues in a state of constant flux, and a number of key competitive issues have changed. If management believes this airline still needs more productive pilot work rules, they are free to make their case—after outlining how they are willing to reward that productivity.
  
• Second, APA should continue to conduct its own independent analysis of any management proposals to ensure we receive value in return for any value given. We should consider any reasonable proposal that clearly and unequivocally improves our current contract. On the other hand, we should soundly reject any attempt to further degrade our pay, benefits or working conditions.
  
• Third, we should ignore any comparisons made between our contract and those of undercapitalized, financially distressed or recently bankrupt carriers. American Airlines' employees paid a steep price for keeping our company out of bankruptcy. If management wants the pilot contract of a bankrupt carrier, then they will have to go through bankruptcy to get it.
  
• Finally, I will recommend that APA institute a policy of polling the membership on a frequent basis during Section 6 negotiations. Membership input during this entire process will be absolutely crucial.

Again, APA’s overriding mission continues to be to represent the best interests of American Airlines’ pilots regardless of the environment. In the past, we have demonstrated a willingness to make difficult and painful choices when circumstances dictated. We have likewise worked cooperatively with management when doing so presented the best opportunity to strengthen the long-term career potential of our members. Our efforts at overcoming the historical acrimony between labor and management were a valuable and necessary exercise that could have created meaningful benefits for all. However, now that management has placed their personal interests ahead of line employees, we will not shy away from fighting for our rightful share of any financial gains that are a result of our continuing sacrifices. Much like in a football game, we will adapt our playbook to the changing conditions on the field. The industry environment continues to evolve. As “things change,” so shall we.
Fraternally,
Ralph

 

[Don Carty]

You ex-TWA guys don't understand. When I was playing golf prior to the acquisition, Herb bet me that we'd never be bigger than United. I took the bet, which was $10 if I remember correctly. The very next day, I commanded my flunkies to begin the process. TWA was going down the toilet anyhow. You pilots were destined for the streets. I saved you; you should thank me.

I won the bet. Herb sent me the $10. It was delivered by FEDEX. I was hoping for a novelty delivery, like a clown (I like clowns) but it was a normal FEDEX guy. There was a funny note with the $10. It read "Be sure the integration is fair, or the TWA pilots will really go beserk." Since I don't like pilots anyhow, I ignored Herb's advice.

 

[Hangin' On]

Boy, this thread went downhill in a hurry. I've lurked for a long time and this thread shouldn't surprise me, but it did. How about we quit the name calling and look at the bigger picture? There is a chance (albeit small) that the bar might be raised with this set of negotiations instead of being in freefall for the last 5 years. Can we put aside past screw-jobs/predudices/bad joo-joo whatever 'cause this round in section 6 could get ugly. It would be cool if there could be some solidarity in the profession instead of immature, arrogant and just plain stupid infighting. Maybe we could all benefit instead of management getting all the breaks.

Just my .02

flame on....

 

[pylut]

Because you and I disagree about the integration you label me as ignorant?

Once again you have things bass ackwards.

It should read - because you are totally ignorant I tend to disagree with you.

 

[AA717driver]

From minute one, APA was under NO obligation to "give" us (the TWA pilots) anything.

ALPA, however, did have a duty to make its best effort to secure the best integration possible for it's (the TWA pilots) members. Telling us to waive our SCOPE clause AND accept the stapling of over half the pilots was not, IMO, its "best" effort.

ALPA wrote TWA off. The powers in ALPA had no interest in fighting for a good integration for the TWA pilots. In fact, it was in the best interest of those controlling ALPA at the time for there to be no precedent for any integration that could come back to bite the larger carriers controlling the union. Besides, ALPA was courting the AA pilots at the time and certainly didn't want to rock THAT boat.

ALPA abandonned the TWA pilots. It was, IMO, the direct result of pressure from the airlines controlling ALPA at the time. That's why I have posted repeatedly that no one cares now that the "big boys" entered Ch. 11 and had their contracts gutted and pension stripped.

They certainly don't have my sympathy. TC

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

Boy, this thread went downhill in a hurry. I've lurked for a long time and this thread shouldn't surprise me, but it did. How about we quit the name calling and look at the bigger picture? There is a chance (albeit small) that the bar might be raised with this set of negotiations instead of being in freefall for the last 5 years. Can we put aside past screw-jobs/predudices/bad joo-joo whatever 'cause this round in section 6 could get ugly. It would be cool if there could be some solidarity in the profession instead of immature, arrogant and just plain stupid infighting. Maybe we could all benefit instead of management getting all the breaks.

Just my .02

flame on....

Hangin' On,

You sure got that right. These guys are fighting the last war which is over and done. Did guys get screwed in Supp CC – Yes! Did some make out pretty good – Yes! Personally, I’m an AA native who had almost 10 years on the property at the time of the acquisition and I still lost over 600 numbers and a left seat position.

The TWA deal was a bad purchase made worse by the events of 911. Problem is, it’s over, done, and past. With the multitude of issues confronting us, these upcoming negotiations will be perhaps our most complex yet.

AMR is aiming for our retirement, productivity, quality of life, and pay. Due to the recent screw ups by our illustrious management, we have a real opportunity to capitalize on our standard of living. We achieve success only by coming together – all of us. There are institutional issues involved here; hopefully, success in our contract transcends to the others.

If management is successful in their divide and conquer strategy, you can count on the continued downward spiral on this profession.

We must look forward and not behind!

AA767AV8TOR

 

[Dangerkitty]

Once again you have things bass ackwards.

It should read - because you are totally ignorant I tend to disagree with you.

Really, thats interesting. You dont know me, have never met me, yet you state that I am ignorant. Only because you and I have differeing opinions about this whole mess.

You're a real class act pylut.

 

[pylut]

Really, thats interesting. You dont know me, have never met me, yet you state that I am ignorant. Only because you and I have differeing opinions about this whole mess.

You have trouble with your comprehension don't you? Still got it backwards, You ARE ignorant THEREFORE we disagree. not the other way around.

You're a real class act pylut.

Correct. What do you know, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

By the way I have met you an your ilk in the halls in DFW,MIA and ORD many times. Still can't get that stink off huh? that's cause it's oozing out from inside where it counts.