APA's Prez Throws Down on Management

[Mach8Forest]

Why I'm engaging you, I will never know. But I wonder why you single out the AA pilot group when there is a lot of blame to go around. Sure, APA took care of its own and in the process screwed a lot of people.
How 'bout redirecting that anger? Most of us on this thread just want to pull this profession out of its tailspin and you want to fight the last war. It's OVER!! Get some therapy, liquid or otherwise, and move on!
[/left]

Redirect it Where?
I had to sell a house that I swore I would live in the rest of my life.
Have you ever had to dip into your 401k? Ect Ect.
How about a trip to the local airport and see a Silver Bird with a TW N# and try not be angry when you had occupied the left seat? Where and what would you do with this anger? Get over it and move on, I highly doubt that.
I will and have moved on, I had no other choice, but I will never forgive or forget who harmed me, my family, and my TWA brother Captains and their families.
APA!
Mach8Forest

 

[B6Driver]

Redirect it Where?
I had to sell a house that I swore I would live in the rest of my life.
Have you ever had to dip into your 401k? Ect Ect.
How about a trip to the local airport and see a Silver Bird with a TW N# and try not be angry when you had occupied the left seat? Where and what would you do with this anger? Get over it and move on, I highly doubt that.
I will and have moved on, I had no other choice, but I will never forgive or forget who harmed me, my family, and my TWA brother Captains and their families.
APA will never have my support!

How can your group expect anything else. Most of us have moved on but will never forget just how badly we were treated by many AA rank-n-file in the line.

 

[mannyaplus11]

Things would have to get REALLY bad where I am now before I go back to AA.
No provisions under the contract because the company said, "Force Majure."
NO Flowback
No Furlough Pay
No Jumpseat
No Passes
No health care

But, hey, I did get to keep that neat little blue uniform with the cute hat.

 

[AA717driver]

Ok, this explains one aspect of the continued heartburn over the integration:

Supp CC has many pilots upset on BOTH sides. I'm a native AA pilot in the SLT domicile. I'll make no bones about it. I'd like to see more of those Capt positions in the hands of AA pilots (system seniority). Like any solution (CC included), there will ALWAYS be pilots on both sides that are upset. I guess the key, is to have as few upset at possible (on both sides).

I have heard recently that if AA were to pay protect the ex TWA pilots who fall under the Supp CC TW Capt positions, and AA were to efficiently redeploy their aircraft assets as they desire--that increased revenue would MORE than offset the pay protection of the TW pilots.

So.....how about it?

1) pay protection (Supp CC amounts for SWB and NB Captains) for the TW pilots?
2) if so, do we maintain the AA fences? might not be fair, BUT why not? for they'd be getting Captain's pay, right?
3) or, do we allow FULL system seniority, anywhere on any equipment?
4) if so, then CA positions and 777/A300 FO positions would be available at other bases for the TW pilots immediately.
5) if so, though....200-300 native AA pilots would have Captain position opportunities.

"Being" a captain has been a very big part of the TW pilot's mindset (not a slam guys). These guys will be upset. Especially the ones that live in St. Louis.

IMO, a judge would laugh them out of court, since they were receiving Captain's pay. (maybe making even more money, if they displaced into a 'senior' FO position and had F/T and M/U, TTOT/SEP abilities to go high)

IMO, the lack of "self-actualizing" (ie..not being a captain) would NOT contribute to a successful DFR lawsuit against APA.

MANY exTW pilots in the Northeast (NYC area), Florida, LAX would/could eliminate/reduce their commuting.

Although, the commuting OUT of STL would probably increase
(including myself).

This would introduce the opportunity for 200-300 AA pilots to upgrade to Captain.

Just some ideas.............fire away....................XXXXX

------------------------------

This was posted on C & R by one of the more notorious TWA bashers and is exactly what causes such angst among those considering accepting recall. I contend that there is not a small number of Natives who would not think twice if Sup. CC went away (by whatever means).

Had Sup. CC been a 4 party agreement, it wouldn't be an issue. Since it's not, it continues and will always be a point of concern for the former TWA'ers at AA.TC

 

[flyzjetz]

Pylut,


You are worth exactly what you negotiate.

.
AA767AV8TOR

UHHH! And this comes from a guy who states he is down to 1994 wages excluding 25% inflation.

 

[Rik717pilot]

Mach8Forest is absolutely correct. Pliske and his ilk are the reason APA sued the TWA pilots first. It was AA/APA attempted preemptive strike to force their cram down upon us with out one bit of assistance from the back stabbing ALPA. Now this idiot wants us to take in the shorts again so he can drive to work, while we have to commute to get to our base. What a jerk.

 

[stlflyguy]

Mach8Forest is absolutely correct. Pliske and his ilk are the reason APA sued the TWA pilots first. It was AA/APA attempted preemptive strike to force their cram down upon us with out one bit of assistance from the back stabbing ALPA. Now this idiot wants us to take in the shorts again so he can drive to work, while we have to commute to get to our base. What a jerk.

What I find interesting is that APA sued one TWA pilot and then named every pilot on the TWA list without ever naming ALPA as a defendant. And to make matters worse, ALPA is nowhere to be found to defend the TWA pilots.

The omission was glaring!

Back to Pliske and his ilk, he is the PRIME EXAMPLE of why it'll be hard to get TWA pilots to stand united with the APA.

stlflyguy

 

[aa73]

Gentlemen,

I think what MP is trying to say is this:

Supp CC will most likely change with the new contract. That much is known. The question is, in what way can it change while not harming the expectations of the pilots it was designed to represent?

There have been rumors flying around that one way to accomplish this would be to let the STL-protected TWA seniority expire, and all protected Captains fall wherever their AA seniority lets them - while pay protecting them as Captains since most would fall to F/O.

The reason for that is this - the STL parings are built to reflect 30% of the lines at DFW and ORD (i.e. it is an artificial base. If STL had true originating lines, it would smaller than our DCA base.) This costs the company a fortune, because when DFW or ORD grows, STL has to grow, too, regardless of the small amount of originating flights it has.

Whether that's a good deal or not - I don't know nor am I qualified to know. There are simply too many variables, most of which are out of my knowledge base. But I can say that it could very well be designed to withstand yet another lawsuit (which would most likely be launched by the Red guys), since the only change is the physical seat. STL would most likely be shut down. It would benefit many, many STL commuters, especially TWA captains and F/Os who were forced into STL when AA shut down all other TWA bases/satellites.

The only gripe I've heard coming from damn few TWA pilots is this - "I don't want to lose my CA's seat." Most think it would be a good deal, because who would turn down CA pay to sit in the right seat, and not have to commute, to boot.

So I don't think MP is trying to stir the pot, rather he is communicating what he's heard circulating around Berlin (the Flight academy.)

What do you TWA guys think about it - good or bad?

73

 

[stlflyguy]

Gentlemen,

I think what MP is trying to say is this:

Supp CC will most likely change with the new contract. That much is known. The question is, in what way can it change while not harming the expectations of the pilots it was designed to represent?

There have been rumors flying around that one way to accomplish this would be to let the STL-protected TWA seniority expire, and all protected Captains fall wherever their AA seniority lets them - while pay protecting them as Captains since most would fall to F/O.

The reason for that is this - the STL parings are built to reflect 30% of the lines at DFW and ORD (i.e. it is an artificial base. If STL had true originating lines, it would smaller than our DCA base.) This costs the company a fortune, because when DFW or ORD grows, STL has to grow, too, regardless of the small amount of originating flights it has.

Whether that's a good deal or not - I don't know nor am I qualified to know. There are simply too many variables, most of which are out of my knowledge base. But I can say that it could very well be designed to withstand yet another lawsuit (which would most likely be launched by the Red guys), since the only change is the physical seat. STL would most likely be shut down. It would benefit many, many STL commuters, especially TWA captains and F/Os who were forced into STL when AA shut down all other TWA bases/satellites.

The only gripe I've heard coming from dang few TWA pilots is this - "I don't want to lose my CA's seat." Most think it would be a good deal, because who would turn down CA pay to sit in the right seat, and not have to commute, to boot.

So I don't think MP is trying to stir the pot, rather he is communicating what he's heard circulating around Berlin (the Flight academy.)

What do you TWA guys think about it - good or bad?

73

Bad.

My first question is "What is a protected TWA Captain?" What about those who fall above Alehult in seniority that have a "protected" STL Captain's seat? Sure, most of those guys (myself included) are on furlough but you'd be targeting one specific group of pilots.

Do the duties of Captain match the duties of First Officer? I'd say "No." Does the First Officer get to make the Captain's decisions because he's paid the same? No. The job may seem the same from the outside, but I think we know that the duties are different. When I see a native Captain doing a walk-around I'll know something's changed. :laugh:

I understand the economics. At this point, I'd say that any erosion of Supp CC could only be sold to the TWA pilots with a seniority shuffle--and only for the better. The Company and APA entered into this agreement without the agreement of the TWA pilots. My sentiment is that they can choke on it unless they want to improve it for the TWA pilots.

stlflyguy

 

[AA717driver]

Ok, if being a CA isn't that big of a deal, why not pay protect those Native who would hold CA in the absence of the Sup CC protections?

Not gonna happen.

AMR/AA management washed its hands and let APA craft Sup. CC. Now, they don't like it. Tough.

This wouldn't be a problem if the TWA pilots were given a seniority number reflecting their true expectations. We weren't and instead, we were given Sup. CC to "accomplish the same thing".

Any changes to Sup. CC would be a further diminishing of the intent of APA at the time Sup. CC was crafted.

The TWA pilots were protected in STL because that was all the APA Merger Committee believed we would ever see (conveniently ignoring bases at JFK and LAX...). Now, I guess they are ready to conveniently forget the Captain seats we held. TC