Anyone fly for Gulfstream out there?

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T "Screening"

I second Timebuilder. Let's come to the point. Sure, the hiring process has been bypassed . . . by a $20K check!

I do believe that folks can be very effective FOs with low to mid time. My two favorite examples are Mesa and Alitalia. When it comes right down to it, MAPD students are being "interviewed" for eighteen months. The school watches them like a hawk to evaluate ability and intelligence, and for untoward personality traits. Alitalia trainees are hand-picked and go through a very strict training program. They are watched closely the entire time. The differences between these programs and P-F-T are that Mesa students only get a job after their formal interview, which is NOT guaranteed. Alitalia students are hired first and then trained.

Of course, Comair students pay for their initial training, just as any school. They're not promised anything.

I like the idea of advertising disclaimers for P-F-T airlines, though I doubt the public would get the point.

 

[publisher]

timebuilder

timebuilder,

I think we are doing everyone a disservice when we talk about a 250 hour pilot in these cases. We do not know how much time or experience that they have.

We know that they want to get the 250 turbine time. You may have a point about turnover, but turnover in this position is tremendously high prior to 9.11 anyway.

It is also a misnomer to say that if they abandoned the school concept tomorrow and paid pilots, this would be anythig but an entry level job at a very low pay scale.

On the fair and equitable side with everyone getting an equal chance, who is kidding who. This business is like all the others. There are sons given special access, at Delta he who has letter of rec from Delta employees in better shape than those without, etc. etc.

I am not trying to rag on you guys, timebuilder and Bobby have tremendous experience and I respect where they come from in their views. I just think that there are more than one point ot the story.

Does anyone here mention how many pilots GIA has employed as captains or how many have gone on to success. I have not seen anyone really critical and saying that the training at GIA's school is terrible.

Sure I understand the benefits of gaining experience through flight instruction and all that, but what I see and hear is resentment that people went around that step when I believe that a great many would have avoided it had they been able.

 

[TurboS7]

To de727ups, well said, finally someone talked about the issue in a fair way. Thanks.

 

[kilomike]

Bravo, Timebuilder!!

Timebuilder,

Cheers to you for coming up with the idea of using Peter Thomas to do a voice-over ad discussing the PFT issue!! That's an idea whose time has come.

kilomike

 

[350DRIVER]

IS GIACAPT still "a" in hiding?!- lol

 

[Freight Dog]

8sm,

Haleiwa was still nice today, although the swell's dying down. Nice for some longboard action. Eh... summer's coming.. might have to surf in town. Too many people.. too few waves.. everyone dropping in on everyone..

As for Gulfjoke and scabs.. I found some names on the scablist that were also EAL scabs who were caught stealing and were either fired or forced to quit by GIA. Gee whiz... what constitutes stealing at GIA??!




ALOHA!

 

[bobbysamd]

Hiring resentment

I do not think the resentment stems from someone not taking the flight instruction route to build experience. Of course, there is nothing wrong with flying banners or whatever to build the time. Those opportunities are oftentimes hard to come by, at least in my experience. More power to those who can get an actual job flying airplanes right out of training at 250 hours. I think the resentment clearly comes from taking the checkbook/Mom & Dad/loan route to purchase the job.

Of course, there are always people who use company connections to get "the interview" or "the job." There's always the son/daughter of the neighbor of the Chief Pilot who gets the opportunity. Not much you can do about that. In fact, many people have friends or former students walk in resumes with LORs to HR. Such "experts" as Kit and others encourage such networking. Using pull such as that, though, must be distinguished from P-F-T or pay-for-interview, when it is the pull of $20K that gets you the opportunity. In other words, yeah, anyone can get the job if he/she has $20K at hand.

 

[Timebuilder]

I'm glad at lease one person knows the name Peter Thomas besides myself. Peter and I have different types of voices, and do different types of work. That's why I would cast him for the V/O.

Also, I may have created an incorrect impression with the mention of 250 hour pilots. I was referring to the 250 hours of turbine experience at GIA. I'm sure that some of the GIA guys have arrived there with more than 250 hours, and have gone on to success elsewhere, and that captains like GIACAPT are hardworking individuals. After all, he and the other guys who fly left seat at GIA have to watch over their copilots while being the responsible PIC. In addition, as soon as the guy gets to the 250 hour mark, he gets replaced by someone who may know even less about flying than the previous FO. That's a lot of mental energy expended on a week to week basis by the captain. As soon as they get used to working together, the guy is replaced.

I too understand about networking. Greg Brown and I have discussed this on the phone quite a bit, and I "get it". If that were how these guys were getting a place in a GIA plane, we wouldn't be having this thread at all.

The P in PFT, IMHO, takes away some of the dignity and professionalism from our business, and reminds me of the 18 year old actress who meets the powerful producer at a party in Malibu, and decides "how bad she wants that job" (to paraphrase an old Eagles song) and comes to the conclusion that a payment made now will bring a big reward later.

I find the idea of competing for the job based on experience, merit, and the door-opening of a good contact to be far preferable to purchasing an $18,000 plane ticket for a 250 hour trip.

Would I have avoided this if able? Well, I was able, and I didn't avoid this "paying of dues" because experienced people told me that I would be avoiding a great amount of positive experience in the process, and at the end of the day I would likely not be as seasoned an aviator if I decided to take the shorter and easier road. Maybe this idea is out of step with pop culture, but I think that the road to real success is paved with the experience I am finding every time I fly.

I'm looking forward to more charter and freight experiences. I think I can then bring a positive force of assistance to the cockpit instead of merely providing a familiarity with switches and procedures recently acquired in the ground training I just purchased. I'll know that I'm in the right seat because someone saw ability and potential in me, and not just a reduction in their costs.

Of course, there is more than one side to every situation. This is one of the best ways to get the word out on this side.

 

[350DRIVER]

I have read many replies to this thread and it is a safe assumption to make that this program and the whole GIA "way of doing things" is looked down on and not respected by most in fact it makes most sick including me BUT I don't think you can rank on some of the hard working pilots there.....I think Cooper and the whole GIA management team are the ones to blame since it is their fault we are even debating this. I am sure their are a few hard working, well skilled and competant pilots currently flying for GIA.....

I just wish the American traveling public knew what they were supporting when they bought a ticket to fly on Gulfstream, I think that if they knew the whole scoop then possibly with low load factors such a program would be in trouble and quite possibly with enough attention towards this issue things would change.


I fault the program itself, creators, directors, and everyone who markets the concept BUT I don't think you can completely blame the pilots who are participating in it since I cannot completely convince myself that they were well informed and well educated when they decided to take part in this.... I hope if anything that this debate will convince potential GIA pilots to stay clear of such a program and seriously consider other options after reading posts from many aviators on this board.

This is a great place for getting advice and information so hopefully this "debate" has been an eye opener for a few who are considering such programs....


cheers
350

 

[Boeingman]

I just wish the American traveling public knew what they were supporting when they bought a ticket to fly on Gulfstream, I think that if they knew the whole scoop then possibly with low load factors such a program would be in trouble and quite possibly with enough attention towards this issue things would change.


I

While not passing judgement on this program either way John Q. public doesn't give a rats behind about this PFT program or it's pilots.

John Q only cares about ticket price and service. If the flights are on time, reasonable service and the tickets are cheap they will come. You're beating your head against the wall trying to convince people otherwise.

 

[publisher]

good points

Bobby,

There are many good points in the discussion.... yet.

When I had a 135 and corporate flght department, I had a bunch of guys living in my lobby who wanted to fly for free to build that turbine time on corporate flights.

These guys were flight instructors from Ohio State and the flight schools in our area. Many of these guys had 135 minimums but needed multi turbine. Unfortunately I had a bunch of Aztec drivers who wanted that time too so it was rare that I could use them.

What I am saying is that everyone here is prejudging who these people are and acting like they may not have any experience level at all except what they bought. That is not necessarily the facts.

It took me 1800 total and 575 multi to get 215 of multi turbine. If at that point I had signed with GIA, I would have had 2000+ 800 + and nearly 500 multi turbine. It would have made me pretty employable.

 

[bobbysamd]

Flying for free to build time v. P-F-T

Okay, Pub, put me in the "me, too" column. I needed multi turbine, too. Doesn't everyone? When I started preparing for a professional career after several years as a pleasure pilot, I approached a guy I knew who flew a Part 91 Kingair for an oil company. I asked him if I could come along with him and fly to build turbine time. He had others approach him before for the same reason. He knew what I was after and was receptive. I spent many afternoons helping him wash his airplane in return for rides. I went with him once or twice, and logged something like 1.0 (he apologized later for not getting me more hours). I had no expectation of pay. People did that all the time years ago (do they still?). No money changed hands. I don't think anyone would have a qualm about doing that.

Once again, notwithstanding the ethics, pride, worth, quals and accomplishment issues, the big issue is money changing hands in return for time.

I don't know how recent your time is, Pub, but I'd bet another .02 opinion and the first round of Cokes if we ever have a Coke together that your time and an ATP (without the P-F-T hours!) would land you a bunch of interviews these days. With an ATP, you would have had your pick of interviews with those quals twelve years ago.

 

[publisher]

Righto

Bobby,

First of all, I was too busy being president to worry about it. Nevertheless, had I paid the money, it would have made a significant difference on my insurance qualifications.

At many corporate jobs, the insurance company sets the times every bit as much as the corporation. That 500 multi turbine made a big difference for a captain job back then at my company.

The strange thing in light of today's market, literally all my pilots on full time were A&P's. 4 of them IA in addition to
ATP.

Had I been a pilot for a living, I would have paid some money to get the time. It would have got me there a year earlier.

 

[metalleg38]

Newbie, Excuse the Ignorance...

Can someone clarify this subject of PFT for me.
It seems to me that everyone "Pays for Training", weather you do it at an airline run school, a flight Acadamy or a University.

I think someone stated in an earlier post that a "Law Firm" is not going to hire you out of high school( or college for that fact) and then pay for your three years of law school.

If there is an airline out there that would hire you and "Then" put you through all your training at thier expence, wouldn't everyone want to go there??? as opposed to shelling out 10's of thousands of $$$$$$ of your own money.

Not trying to start anything here, just would like some explanation. Thanks in advance!!

ALSO, is there a web site or good book that anyone can recomend for all these abbriviations that are used in aviation.
I thought the sign and computer graphics biz used a lot, Boy was I wrong there.....LOL

 

[TurboS7]

Wake up guys

You pay for trainig at any major airline. The first year you may make 30K max, then the second year you suddenly make 60K to 90K. Wake-up, you just paid a major airline 30K to 60K for your training. Just because 1 year went by are you more valuable to the company? Your warm body is still sitting on the same seat doing exactly what it was doing at 2 months as it is doing after a year. Thank God FE'ing is almost gone or the above statement would be more than correct. Got to go study for a LOFT tomorrow, bye. So if a major made you pay for training but paid you 60 to 70K the first year the result would be the same. If the person has the bucks go for it, but like I said earlier they will miss the roses along the way.