Anyone fly for Gulfstream out there?

[AWACoff]

Totally off topic but I was over at Sandys Beach last week and the surf was definitely up. They were calling 3-6. Beats me if it was or not but the surfers were riding inside the curl off of Full Point....yikes. That's big for mainlanders.

 

[8sm]

AWACoff,

You've got to have a large set of *#*&%'s for them big waves.
Mostly been off of DiamondHead myself, spent sometime on the Northshore in December about 6-7am not to bad then. But watch out as the Sun starts climbing. I'm to old for those big sets. I leave that for my 15yr old son, soon to turn pro. Now that will turn my grayhair, white.

Aloha for now....8sm

 

[Timebuilder]

Surfing.

I'll add that to my list of Things to Do.

 

[publisher]

Whoa

Hold on a minute.


First, check the times of those hired at F/o positions across the entire regionl board on the minimum side.

Second, answer me this. Are the people, paid or not paid, legal for the seat they are in?

Third, do you know the total time or times of any of these people at all?

Or, are you assuming because they entered this program they are incompetent and do not have any other flight experience.

If someone has 1100 tt that they got flight instructing, 125 multi engine, and were merely trying to pick up some turbine in an airline situation, are they not qualified for the seat and have about the same level of experience as a good many f/o's.

To say that this should be illegal and punishable by a large fine is over the line.

 

[Timebuilder]

While not illegal, it is certainly unconventional. Perhaps the best way to fight this would be to establish a 501 C 3 to disseminate safety information to the public in the style of "issue" political ads, asking:

"do you know who is flying you from Florida to the islands? One of your pilots could have purchased the right to fly as a first officer on your airline. Instead of hiring and paying a co-pilot, your airline may be using a revolving door of trainees who are so eager to fill their logbooks with "experience" that they have bypassed the seasoning process used by over ninety nine percent of professional pilots. Before you fly, ask if your copilot is paying for training. Brought to you by the concerned pilot's safety council."

Veteran narrator Peter Thomas could do the voice-over, as he lives in Florida. You'd know his voice from A&E, TLC, the History Channel, and over 5,000 commercials.



I don't think a large fine would be necessary.

 

[Checks]

"because it encourages airlines to take advantage of pilots, and there's already enough of that going around."

Exactly! Everything else on this thread is just extra B.S.

Then again, I hope everyone has to PFT for every position in Aviation. That would be way cool! Instead of getting paid 150K a year you should have to pay 50K a year to fly that 727. If a B1900 is worth 20K then I am sure a 727 is worth 50K. Come on UPS guy, get with the PFT program. You non-PFTers make me sick!If you REALLY want to make it then "step up to the plate" and throw that cash down!

 

[Ty Webb]

Scrublisher is technically correct when he says that we do not have a "right" to those jobs, at least without a nationwide pilot's guild or union. A guild or union would actually be a great thing- imagine being able to accumulate seniority, period, and not have to start over each time a company goes under or you want to move!

Anyway, back to the subject at hand- I guarantee you that the person in Houston who buys a ticket on Continental to Key West would be outraged to learn that the "Co-pilot" on the last leg was paying to be flying the airplane- and probably is not even a US citizen, here on an educational Visa!

I am surprised that bit of info has not made it onto "Dateline" or "60 Minutes" yet. Obviously, Scrublisher's e-rag won't ever cover the story, GIA buys too many ads at AEPS and other "Come, BE a PILOT" rags.

 

[publisher]

Ty

TY,

What story?

Is the guy not covered by the same rules and regulations as the rest of you. Is he paying GIA or the FAA. Do not they still govern the situation?

As to your point on seniority, is that not seniority at a company not in life. Companies pay more to higher seniority people as they have been with them and supposedly doing good work for a longer period. Not, heh, you did a great job for United for 14 years, I should reward you with some extra pay for your loyal service to them.

You keep bringing up that advertising point even though I said they only advertised once in a two year period. That would certainly keep me from saying anything negative about them.

I actually think that there is some merit to the dabate on pft in these type situations. I usually only jump in here when someone tries to argue a point that is not valid.

As I have said to you before, if inexperienced F/O' s was a sin, we would have a bunch of people in trouble. There are still chief pilots, check airman, and faa inspectors that are not going to put people in the cockpit because they are in a paid training program.

The trouble is that some read my disagreement with them as my wildly supporting PFT. Not the case.

 

[bobbysamd]

And the beat goes on . . . .

Another way to look at this is whether some people deserve special hiring privileges over others. I think this debate in part boils down to that issue. That's one of my issues with P-F-T.

Throughout this thread and other P-F-T threads suggestions and references are made that perhaps individual "A" deserves special privileges because he/she is 35 and is getting older fast, or individual "B" has too much rotor and not enough airplane. Apparently if you can (afford to) P-F-T you can obtain special treatment.

It's just my .02 opinion, but everyone should be afforded an equal chance - meaning no special treatment in hiring (or the best hiring money can buy). I go back to my example from before about the broadcasting business. It took me several years of hard work to get where I finally got in my radio career - and I was still working a lousy shift. I was working that shift on a promise from my boss that I would move back to the regular day shift for which I was hired. Perhaps a year later, he hired someone, ostensibly for my shift, but when he found out this fellow had played college baseball he put him on days. Seems that he wanted the guy to help him coach his Little League ball team. That didn't seem very fair to me.

 

[Timebuilder]

>>As I have said to you before, if inexperienced F/O' s was a sin, we would have a bunch of people in trouble. There are still chief pilots, check airman, and faa inspectors that are not going to put people in the cockpit because they are in a paid training program.


I think the "sin" in this isn't that the first officer is a human who is capable of error, but that he has bypassed the hiring regime, the screening process if you will, that would normally be in place. The previous experience, the resume, the pool, the interview, and finally, the company paid training and initial experience leading to a real job performed by a paid professional pilot, without a 250 hour time limit. A conventional FO continues to build experience past the 250 hour mark, while the PFT FO is ousted for another neophyte, taking the experience in the cockpit back to where it was 250 hours ago.

And sure, when I say "our jobs", it isn't in the legal sense. It's more the moral sense.

If pilots refuse this type of plan, it can't continue. Knowledge really is power.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T "Screening"

I second Timebuilder. Let's come to the point. Sure, the hiring process has been bypassed . . . by a $20K check!

I do believe that folks can be very effective FOs with low to mid time. My two favorite examples are Mesa and Alitalia. When it comes right down to it, MAPD students are being "interviewed" for eighteen months. The school watches them like a hawk to evaluate ability and intelligence, and for untoward personality traits. Alitalia trainees are hand-picked and go through a very strict training program. They are watched closely the entire time. The differences between these programs and P-F-T are that Mesa students only get a job after their formal interview, which is NOT guaranteed. Alitalia students are hired first and then trained.

Of course, Comair students pay for their initial training, just as any school. They're not promised anything.

I like the idea of advertising disclaimers for P-F-T airlines, though I doubt the public would get the point.

 

[publisher]

timebuilder

timebuilder,

I think we are doing everyone a disservice when we talk about a 250 hour pilot in these cases. We do not know how much time or experience that they have.

We know that they want to get the 250 turbine time. You may have a point about turnover, but turnover in this position is tremendously high prior to 9.11 anyway.

It is also a misnomer to say that if they abandoned the school concept tomorrow and paid pilots, this would be anythig but an entry level job at a very low pay scale.

On the fair and equitable side with everyone getting an equal chance, who is kidding who. This business is like all the others. There are sons given special access, at Delta he who has letter of rec from Delta employees in better shape than those without, etc. etc.

I am not trying to rag on you guys, timebuilder and Bobby have tremendous experience and I respect where they come from in their views. I just think that there are more than one point ot the story.

Does anyone here mention how many pilots GIA has employed as captains or how many have gone on to success. I have not seen anyone really critical and saying that the training at GIA's school is terrible.

Sure I understand the benefits of gaining experience through flight instruction and all that, but what I see and hear is resentment that people went around that step when I believe that a great many would have avoided it had they been able.

 

[TurboS7]

To de727ups, well said, finally someone talked about the issue in a fair way. Thanks.

 

[kilomike]

Bravo, Timebuilder!!

Timebuilder,

Cheers to you for coming up with the idea of using Peter Thomas to do a voice-over ad discussing the PFT issue!! That's an idea whose time has come.

kilomike

 

[350DRIVER]

IS GIACAPT still "a" in hiding?!- lol

 

[Freight Dog]

8sm,

Haleiwa was still nice today, although the swell's dying down. Nice for some longboard action. Eh... summer's coming.. might have to surf in town. Too many people.. too few waves.. everyone dropping in on everyone..

As for Gulfjoke and scabs.. I found some names on the scablist that were also EAL scabs who were caught stealing and were either fired or forced to quit by GIA. Gee whiz... what constitutes stealing at GIA??!




ALOHA!

 

[bobbysamd]

Hiring resentment

I do not think the resentment stems from someone not taking the flight instruction route to build experience. Of course, there is nothing wrong with flying banners or whatever to build the time. Those opportunities are oftentimes hard to come by, at least in my experience. More power to those who can get an actual job flying airplanes right out of training at 250 hours. I think the resentment clearly comes from taking the checkbook/Mom & Dad/loan route to purchase the job.

Of course, there are always people who use company connections to get "the interview" or "the job." There's always the son/daughter of the neighbor of the Chief Pilot who gets the opportunity. Not much you can do about that. In fact, many people have friends or former students walk in resumes with LORs to HR. Such "experts" as Kit and others encourage such networking. Using pull such as that, though, must be distinguished from P-F-T or pay-for-interview, when it is the pull of $20K that gets you the opportunity. In other words, yeah, anyone can get the job if he/she has $20K at hand.

 

[Timebuilder]

I'm glad at lease one person knows the name Peter Thomas besides myself. Peter and I have different types of voices, and do different types of work. That's why I would cast him for the V/O.

Also, I may have created an incorrect impression with the mention of 250 hour pilots. I was referring to the 250 hours of turbine experience at GIA. I'm sure that some of the GIA guys have arrived there with more than 250 hours, and have gone on to success elsewhere, and that captains like GIACAPT are hardworking individuals. After all, he and the other guys who fly left seat at GIA have to watch over their copilots while being the responsible PIC. In addition, as soon as the guy gets to the 250 hour mark, he gets replaced by someone who may know even less about flying than the previous FO. That's a lot of mental energy expended on a week to week basis by the captain. As soon as they get used to working together, the guy is replaced.

I too understand about networking. Greg Brown and I have discussed this on the phone quite a bit, and I "get it". If that were how these guys were getting a place in a GIA plane, we wouldn't be having this thread at all.

The P in PFT, IMHO, takes away some of the dignity and professionalism from our business, and reminds me of the 18 year old actress who meets the powerful producer at a party in Malibu, and decides "how bad she wants that job" (to paraphrase an old Eagles song) and comes to the conclusion that a payment made now will bring a big reward later.

I find the idea of competing for the job based on experience, merit, and the door-opening of a good contact to be far preferable to purchasing an $18,000 plane ticket for a 250 hour trip.

Would I have avoided this if able? Well, I was able, and I didn't avoid this "paying of dues" because experienced people told me that I would be avoiding a great amount of positive experience in the process, and at the end of the day I would likely not be as seasoned an aviator if I decided to take the shorter and easier road. Maybe this idea is out of step with pop culture, but I think that the road to real success is paved with the experience I am finding every time I fly.

I'm looking forward to more charter and freight experiences. I think I can then bring a positive force of assistance to the cockpit instead of merely providing a familiarity with switches and procedures recently acquired in the ground training I just purchased. I'll know that I'm in the right seat because someone saw ability and potential in me, and not just a reduction in their costs.

Of course, there is more than one side to every situation. This is one of the best ways to get the word out on this side.

 

[350DRIVER]

I have read many replies to this thread and it is a safe assumption to make that this program and the whole GIA "way of doing things" is looked down on and not respected by most in fact it makes most sick including me BUT I don't think you can rank on some of the hard working pilots there.....I think Cooper and the whole GIA management team are the ones to blame since it is their fault we are even debating this. I am sure their are a few hard working, well skilled and competant pilots currently flying for GIA.....

I just wish the American traveling public knew what they were supporting when they bought a ticket to fly on Gulfstream, I think that if they knew the whole scoop then possibly with low load factors such a program would be in trouble and quite possibly with enough attention towards this issue things would change.


I fault the program itself, creators, directors, and everyone who markets the concept BUT I don't think you can completely blame the pilots who are participating in it since I cannot completely convince myself that they were well informed and well educated when they decided to take part in this.... I hope if anything that this debate will convince potential GIA pilots to stay clear of such a program and seriously consider other options after reading posts from many aviators on this board.

This is a great place for getting advice and information so hopefully this "debate" has been an eye opener for a few who are considering such programs....


cheers
350

 

[Boeingman]

I just wish the American traveling public knew what they were supporting when they bought a ticket to fly on Gulfstream, I think that if they knew the whole scoop then possibly with low load factors such a program would be in trouble and quite possibly with enough attention towards this issue things would change.


I

While not passing judgement on this program either way John Q. public doesn't give a rats behind about this PFT program or it's pilots.

John Q only cares about ticket price and service. If the flights are on time, reasonable service and the tickets are cheap they will come. You're beating your head against the wall trying to convince people otherwise.